Author Topic: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4  (Read 1531286 times)

Offline matthewkantar

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1815
  • Liked: 2160
  • Likes Given: 1921
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4160 on: 09/16/2022 03:42 pm »
I am guessing SpaceX is popping some Raptors to develop effective shrouds to isolate the engines from each other.  They showed them waaaay back in one of the presentations, but I have not seen anything since. From recent Tweets it seems like SpaceX expects Raptor 2s to be less than completely reliable in the near to mid term.

Offline cambrianera

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1438
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 261
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4161 on: 09/16/2022 03:58 pm »
It's amazing they can do this at all, much less under tight mass constraints.  That's great engineering.
Amazing video! I do remember Elon mentioning that the 304L steel might not be that bad at cryo.
Most types of steel are brittle at low temperatures; austenitic steels are not (due to the crystalline structure - face centered cubic). AISI 304L is an austenitic steel.
CRS-7 failure is attributed to the use of brackets made of 17-4 PH Stainless steel (martensitic structure, not recommended for cryo, only marginally acceptable due to the high alloy of SS).
Oh to be young again. . .

Offline edzieba

  • Virtual Realist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5098
  • United Kingdom
  • Liked: 7460
  • Likes Given: 36
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4162 on: 09/16/2022 11:21 pm »


Mostly fluff, but at at 9:00 "We use [...] laser welds for all the larger welds, it's a machine doing a very precise laser weld".

Offline Oersted

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2630
  • Liked: 3630
  • Likes Given: 2471
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4163 on: 09/17/2022 09:19 pm »
Great drone footage, though.

Offline OTV Booster

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4513
  • Terra is my nation; currently Kansas
  • Liked: 3143
  • Likes Given: 5078
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4164 on: 09/27/2022 01:55 pm »
Has anything like the can crusher ever been used before in rocket development?
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline wannamoonbase

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4909
  • Denver, CO
    • U.S. Metric Association
  • Liked: 2636
  • Likes Given: 3349
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4165 on: 09/27/2022 02:00 pm »
Has anything like the can crusher ever been used before in rocket development?

Huntsville has a facility that was used on the Saturn V, Shuttle and I assume SLS.

Huntsville Propulsion and Structural Test Facility, it was built on a NASA Champagne budget, Can crusher is a SpaceX budget.
Superheavy + Starship the final push to launch commit!

Offline edzieba

  • Virtual Realist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5098
  • United Kingdom
  • Liked: 7460
  • Likes Given: 36
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4166 on: 09/27/2022 02:43 pm »
Has anything like the can crusher ever been used before in rocket development?
Yes, there are Stage 1 and Stage 2 structural test stands at McGregor for Falcon, there are stands at Stennis for SLS, Vulcan was tested on Dynetics structural test stand, etc. The only major difference with the 'can crusher' is that because it lacks an external frame it can only test loads in a single axis rather than in multiple axes as most test stands can.

Offline StarshipTrooper

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 150
  • Las Vegas, Nevada
  • Liked: 225
  • Likes Given: 221
ďI'm very confident that success is within the set of possible outcomes.Ē  Elon Musk

Offline flexbuffchest

  • Member
  • Posts: 63
  • Liked: 123
  • Likes Given: 50
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4168 on: 09/28/2022 05:27 pm »
https://twitter.com/tomcostellonbc/status/1574757459226394624?s=20&t=6JMGal78snwsi7tzRDIYkQ

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1572563987258290177?s=20&t=4lpAWfctd1Gn-2Z4U6-Obg

The race is not over, it goes on!
I haven't been up to date on SS in a little while, but have they got the licenses ready to go for an orbital attempt yet?

Offline DanClemmensen

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3431
  • Earth (currently)
  • Liked: 2692
  • Likes Given: 1005
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4169 on: 09/28/2022 05:47 pm »

I haven't been up to date on SS in a little while, but have they got the licenses ready to go for an orbital attempt yet?
Only two licenses are needed: FCC and FAA.
The PEA was approved, so the actual FAA launch license is routine and we won't see it until shortly (a week?) before launch, just like at KSC. The FCC temporary license is also routine and won't see it until just before launch, also just like at KSC.

Offline edzieba

  • Virtual Realist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5098
  • United Kingdom
  • Liked: 7460
  • Likes Given: 36
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4170 on: 09/29/2022 10:36 am »

I haven't been up to date on SS in a little while, but have they got the licenses ready to go for an orbital attempt yet?
Only two licenses are needed: FCC and FAA.
The PEA was approved, so the actual FAA launch license is routine and we won't see it until shortly (a week?) before launch, just like at KSC. The FCC temporary license is also routine and won't see it until just before launch, also just like at KSC.
Minor correction: the FCC licenses are already in place, and are just periodically refreshed as they expire (every 6 months).

Offline matthewkantar

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1815
  • Liked: 2160
  • Likes Given: 1921
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4171 on: 10/10/2022 05:26 pm »
Does the absence of steel engine cowlings and addition of reflective material suggest non-metallic splinter jackets on  Booster 7ís Raptors? Aramid fiber ballistic armor?
« Last Edit: 10/10/2022 05:28 pm by matthewkantar »

Offline RamsesBic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 139
  • Sweden
  • Liked: 140
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4172 on: 10/10/2022 06:59 pm »
Does the absence of steel engine cowlings and addition of reflective material suggest non-metallic splinter jackets on  Booster 7ís Raptors? Aramid fiber ballistic armor?

It suggests to me that they needed access to the engines and steel covers would be in the way. The methane used during spin prime is routed from new connectors on the side facing out, where the shields would be, using hoses that connect to pipes that vent it all by the base of the tower. It could also suggest they still have a lot of work to do on B7.

Offline matthewkantar

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1815
  • Liked: 2160
  • Likes Given: 1921
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4173 on: 10/10/2022 07:04 pm »
It suggests to me that they needed access to the engines and steel covers would be in the way. The methane used during spin prime is routed from new connectors on the side facing out, where the shields would be, using hoses that connect to pipes that vent it all by the base of the tower. It could also suggest they still have a lot of work to do on B7.

Why would the new covers be reflective if they are for gas management?

Offline InterestedEngineer

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1104
  • Seattle
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 1343
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4174 on: 10/10/2022 07:13 pm »
Does the absence of steel engine cowlings and addition of reflective material suggest non-metallic splinter jackets on  Booster 7ís Raptors? Aramid fiber ballistic armor?

I'm not sure one wants aramid fibers around high temperature steel heated to its maximum operating temperatures.  Aramid fibers are fine around aluminum operating temperatures, but the max operating temperature of plain old 304L is 2x that of aramid fibers, and inconel or other custom metals that the various exposed engine parts consist of is probably 3x or so.

I'm flummoxed by what the utility of the flexible "protective" material is.

Offline DanClemmensen

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3431
  • Earth (currently)
  • Liked: 2692
  • Likes Given: 1005
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4175 on: 10/10/2022 08:01 pm »
I'm flummoxed by what the utility of the flexible "protective" material is.
The material keeps the paparazzi with their telephoto lenses from peeking up the skirt at the private parts.  :)

Offline RamsesBic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 139
  • Sweden
  • Liked: 140
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4176 on: 10/10/2022 08:20 pm »
It suggests to me that they needed access to the engines and steel covers would be in the way. The methane used during spin prime is routed from new connectors on the side facing out, where the shields would be, using hoses that connect to pipes that vent it all by the base of the tower. It could also suggest they still have a lot of work to do on B7.

Why would the new covers be reflective if they are for gas management?

The tarps are not for gas management, but the connectors under them have to be easily got at, to connect the hoses. That they are reflective has nothing to do with that as far as I can figure out.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35527
  • UK
    • Plan 28
  • Liked: 61871
  • Likes Given: 27513
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4177 on: 11/02/2022 08:19 pm »
twitter.com/ringwatchers/status/1587782967706927106

Quote
The 3 interstage clamps that connect Starship and Superheavy together are a critical piece in the Starship full stack, but there isnít much documentation of how they work and how they have changed through the generations of vehicles. Letís change that. (1/14)

📸: @ChameleonCir[/quote]

https://twitter.com/ringwatchers/status/1587783070098259968

Quote
Two designs of these clamps have been used on Starship to date, with test article B2.1 being the first to have them. Notice how they have a much wider lip. This style was used until S21 and B6. (2/14)

Quote
The old style is important to note because this was the only time where we got to see the actuation mechanism in action. A hydraulic actuator would simply be able to push and pull on it to lock and unlock, with a large spring pressing on it while locked. (3/14)

https://twitter.com/ringwatchers/status/1587783303482015744

Quote
On S22 and B7, a new clamp design was implemented that uses a much more hook-shaped clamp. This is the side and front profile of this new design. (4/14)

Quote
While there was a lot of speculation about how these clamps retracted, we never really had a chance to see this happen until noticed this during S24ís realignment on top of B7. (5/14)

https://twitter.com/ringwatchers/status/1587783461917671424

Quote
The new clamps retract a lot further back than the old design, making sure they properly clear the Starship. This video shows a test of these clamps in real-time. (6/14)

Quote
Here is a visualization of the unlocking and locking motion with these clamps, showing the rotation back. (7/14)

https://twitter.com/ringwatchers/status/1587783663311265793

Quote
Using our knowledge of how the old style was actuated, this is a speculative design of the new style's system. We are yet to see the inside, but this is our best guess. (8/14)

Quote
It's also important to note that this has likely shifted away from a hydraulic-powered system on B9+, due to the lack of Hydraulic Power Units. So it's possible that this system is now using an electric linear actuator or some alternative system. (9/14)

https://twitter.com/ringwatchers/status/1587783853980139520

Quote
You will also notice these wedge-shaped pieces surrounding the clamps, which likely make sure the clamps are properly aligned with the slots in the Ship and may provide some protection. (10/14)

Quote
The ship sits on a rim that goes around the entire perimeter of the interstage, and this rim has 2 notches surrounding each clamp. These notches ensure that the Ship will stay in the perfect position for the clamps to extend and lock. (11/14)

https://twitter.com/ringwatchers/status/1587784074604810242

Quote
The test stands also had their clamps replaced, with the design kept mostly the same, but the clamp piece only tilts back like the older clamps. The green part is the clamp, and the yellow parts act the same as the wedge-shaped pieces on the Booster. (12/14)

Quote
These clamps are all that make up the stage separation system, with no extra hardware like what is present on Falcon 9. If you want to learn more about Starshipís staging, check out this timestamped video from (13/14)

https://twitter.com/ringwatchers/status/1587784198139613196

Quote
This critical system allows Starship and Superheavy to separate after MECO, and itís pretty cool how it has evolved prior to the first flight of the integrated stack. Hopefully, this answers any questions about these clamps, but comments are always welcome as per usual! (14/14)

Offline inaccurate_reality

  • Member
  • Posts: 62
  • Liked: 93
  • Likes Given: 277
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4178 on: 11/03/2022 06:15 pm »
Thanks for the consolidated update, I was starting to think everyone snuck off to a new engineering thread and didn't tell me.

One question I have is what will be providing separation force. I know that on F9 there's a linear actuator of some kind (hydraulic?) that sticks into the MVac engine and (very carefully) pushes against the injector plate itself. Any indication that SS/SH will use a similar system? I have a hard time imagining they'll try to align multiple plungers into multiple engines, but what else could they push off of? The rim of the barrel section? If so I'd expect to see some kind of pusher inline or nearby to the interstage locking mechanism. How about in the center of the three SL raptors? Seems very risky, as any misalignment (easy to imagine with a bunch of propellant sloshing around a mostly-empty SH) means you're dinging an engine. What else is there to push off of?

Will they just let the RCS of the booster and ship separate the two? Hard to do after MECO, if they're still using the ullage pressure to provide thrust (not-quite-cold gas thrusters), but pretty easy if they're using COPV N2 or something. I'm not up to date on the RCS system, but those were the two near-term options I heard floating around (as opposed to hot-gas). Any other ideas?

Offline RamsesBic

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 139
  • Sweden
  • Liked: 140
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 4
« Reply #4179 on: 11/03/2022 07:24 pm »
Thanks for the consolidated update, I was starting to think everyone snuck off to a new engineering thread and didn't tell me.

One question I have is what will be providing separation force. I know that on F9 there's a linear actuator of some kind (hydraulic?) that sticks into the MVac engine and (very carefully) pushes against the injector plate itself. Any indication that SS/SH will use a similar system? I have a hard time imagining they'll try to align multiple plungers into multiple engines, but what else could they push off of? The rim of the barrel section? If so I'd expect to see some kind of pusher inline or nearby to the interstage locking mechanism. How about in the center of the three SL raptors? Seems very risky, as any misalignment (easy to imagine with a bunch of propellant sloshing around a mostly-empty SH) means you're dinging an engine. What else is there to push off of?

Will they just let the RCS of the booster and ship separate the two? Hard to do after MECO, if they're still using the ullage pressure to provide thrust (not-quite-cold gas thrusters), but pretty easy if they're using COPV N2 or something. I'm not up to date on the RCS system, but those were the two near-term options I heard floating around (as opposed to hot-gas). Any other ideas?

If you had time to listen to Elon describe the method in the clip with Tim, the SS/SH is given a slight rotation sideways (not around the x-axis) that means the ship will have a slightly larger speed than the booster. When the clamps retract they will drift away from each other using their inertia. When they are far enough from each other they light their engines and move apart. No push off needed.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement SkyTale Software GmbH
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1