Author Topic: Power options for a Mars settlement  (Read 596673 times)

Offline LMT

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2360 on: 03/29/2023 04:59 pm »
I know there are mixed feelings about the viability of wind power but I do wonder if locating turbines in the upper reaches of Noctis Labyrinthus could take advantage of katabatic winds coming down off Tharsis?

I think that canyon network would reduce wind speed through hydraulic jump / turbulence.  You want fast laminar flow, from long slopes, yes?

To deliver katabatic wind power across thousands of km, why not deploy an equatorial UHVDC PV grid first?  You could add other power sources, like Tharsis wind farms, afterward, as extensions.

With notional cable deployment from areosynchronous orbit, the grid would run across the Tharsis bulge, even across the long slopes of Pavonis Mons.  Conceivably, your wind farm could attach directly, below Pavonis; no grid extension needed.

Do you have estimates of Tharsis diurnal and seasonal winds?

Image:  Pavonis Mons rendering, Wolfgang Wieser
 
« Last Edit: 03/30/2023 03:03 am by LMT »

Offline LMT

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2361 on: 03/29/2023 10:18 pm »
What Would Battery Manufacturing Look Like on the Moon and Mars?

Quote
For martian battery manufacturing, NaClO4 undoubtedly appears as the best option due to its immediate availability on the surface.

Notably, a salt harvester extracting perchlorate salts for their liquid electrolyte (NaClO4) could also extract sulfate salts for a traditional saltwater battery electrolyte (e.g., Na2SO4).  Also, NaClO4 can be used in a 5 M saltwater battery.

Previously:  1 2 3
 
To use regolith minerals, in this example for batteries, first you have to find them. Some of these minerals are exotic or complicated to refine, for example on earth. So until a particular operation of In-Situ mineral utilization matures, that operation will look like major prospecting and infrastructure bootstrapping. That is unlike the Figure 1 infographic in the quoted article.

Of course we're discussing Martian Sodium, sulphates, and perchlorates, which might contribute to some kind of battery. But not a spectacular rechargeable battery chemistry like LiPo etc. Change my mind: show me a relevant lab prototype battery.

The noted battery salts aren't exotic.  What are you asking for, exactly?

Online lamontagne

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2362 on: 04/08/2023 03:54 pm »
If this works for Earth, would it also work for Mars?  I think so, but there have been diverging opinions over the years.
 ;D

Master plan part III

How heavy would a Master plan part III be for Mars?

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2363 on: 04/09/2023 12:21 am »
If this works for Earth, would it also work for Mars?  I think so, but there have been diverging opinions over the years.
 ;D

Master plan part III

How heavy would a Master plan part III be for Mars?
OMG. You wouldn't have the cliff notes or the classic comic version by any chance?
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2364 on: 04/12/2023 03:31 am »
It's not a "magic bullet" solution you can sum up in one sentence. Solving a huge global energy problem requires complex ideas. No surprise, really.

The most digestible version is probably the Supercut below.

"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Online lamontagne

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2365 on: 04/13/2023 01:15 pm »
It's not a "magic bullet" solution you can sum up in one sentence. Solving a huge global energy problem requires complex ideas. No surprise, really.

The most digestible version is probably the Supercut below.


The item that impacts Mars design the most is probably the reliance on batteries, that are fine for a few days but not for months.  They do cover hydrogen storage and methane production for industrial processes, that might be used on Mars to cover winter months and dust storms.  Wonder if we could adapt the usage models?

Offline LMT

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2366 on: 04/13/2023 04:24 pm »
The item that impacts Mars design the most is probably the reliance on batteries, that are fine for a few days but not for months.  They do cover hydrogen storage and methane production for industrial processes, that might be used on Mars to cover winter months and dust storms.  Wonder if we could adapt the usage models?

Round-trip efficiency is extremely low there.

ISRU battery farms can run for months, with high efficiency.  E.g., apply the notional ISRU industrial night-shift farm to winter round-the-clock use, and add an ISRU thermal battery farm to utilize waste heat concurrently. 

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2367 on: 04/13/2023 04:40 pm »
You oversize the solar so it still performs in winter, then you use ISRU fuel and oxidizer to cover the last 5% of annual electricity usage. Depending on power usage, even just pausing ISRU propellant usage could be enough to get through the sand storms.
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Offline LMT

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2368 on: 04/13/2023 04:58 pm »
...use ISRU fuel and oxidizer to cover the last 5% of annual electricity usage.

You might calculate for a realistic industrial scenario, e.g., at fleet scale.

Winter daily insolation might be 10% of summer max, even less under winter storms.  How to maintain winter industry in the worst case?

Online lamontagne

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2369 on: 04/13/2023 05:11 pm »
You oversize the solar so it still performs in winter, then you use ISRU fuel and oxidizer to cover the last 5% of annual electricity usage. Depending on power usage, even just pausing ISRU propellant usage could be enough to get through the sand storms.
I've always though so, but it would be nice to actually model it.

Online DanClemmensen

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2370 on: 04/13/2023 05:31 pm »
You oversize the solar so it still performs in winter, then you use ISRU fuel and oxidizer to cover the last 5% of annual electricity usage. Depending on power usage, even just pausing ISRU propellant usage could be enough to get through the sand storms.
I've always though so, but it would be nice to actually model it.
Basically, your ISRU propellant, oxidizer, and generator becomes your second-level "battery". Its round-trip efficiency is lower than your first-level battery, but the storage capacity is very large. When you have excess PV, you star by filling your first-level batteries, and then use the remainder to generate propellant and oxidizer. Details will depend on the exact parameters of your first-level batteries and second-level "battery" and on your ability to predict insolation for the next week (varies with dust storms). A similar system could be used on Earth, except that utility-scale use of methane historically results in methane leaks.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2371 on: 04/13/2023 05:47 pm »
A similar system could be used on Earth, except that utility-scale use of methane historically results in methane leaks.
IIRC the industry estimates a typical 3% leakage of Methane, a GH gas 27-30x more potent than CO2.

Sitting behind every "renewable" scheme that isn't backed up by nuclear ready to come on when the sun don't shine, the wind don't blow and the dams empty.  :(
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2372 on: 04/13/2023 05:56 pm »
An interesting question would be what would an indigenous nuclear power system on Mars look like?

That's one where nearly everything is Made on Mars(TM).  :)

Keep in mind
1) Power is likely expensive
2) Water is likely very expensive
3) CO2 is available outside your front door (or rather the airlock to your burrow)
4) As there are no seas on mars a fuel form that's stable in seawater IE UO2 is irrelevant. It is also energy intensive to make and has both poor thermal conductivity and a lower percentage of Uranium per unit mass than other options.

Now you can call on the earth for knowledge and simulations but you're going to have to make it on mars, or find a way to raise the cash to buy (and ship) any parts you need.

I'm interested to see how that would change peoples approach.

MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Online lamontagne

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2373 on: 04/13/2023 06:20 pm »
An interesting question would be what would an indigenous nuclear power system on Mars look like?

That's one where nearly everything is Made on Mars(TM).  :)

Keep in mind
1) Power is likely expensive
2) Water is likely very expensive
3) CO2 is available outside your front door (or rather the airlock to your burrow)
4) As there are no seas on mars a fuel form that's stable in seawater IE UO2 is irrelevant. It is also energy intensive to make and has both poor thermal conductivity and a lower percentage of Uranium per unit mass than other options.

Now you can call on the earth for knowledge and simulations but you're going to have to make it on mars, or find a way to raise the cash to buy (and ship) any parts you need.

I'm interested to see how that would change peoples approach.
Fuel is the lightest part of a nuclear reactor.  Most likely it would come from Earth?  Are there uranium rich minerals on Mars? We need boots on the ground to know that.

Online lamontagne

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2374 on: 04/13/2023 06:27 pm »
I've done some work here (with others) on the cost of nuclear vs solar, but I had handwaved in energy storage, and I would like to go a bit further, and at the same time review this!

https://marspedia.org/Cost_of_energy_on_Mars

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2375 on: 04/13/2023 09:24 pm »

Fuel is the lightest part of a nuclear reactor.  Most likely it would come from Earth?  Are there uranium rich minerals on Mars? We need boots on the ground to know that.
Well a full reload of a PWR is about 81tonnes.

But that kind of misses the point.

For sustainable development on mars you need to extract and process on mars. So if you want to (say) double capacity you only have to worry about martian resources.

I'd suggest the starting issue is enrichment.

 There's no way that technology will be transferred off earth.

OTOH all of the first generation power reactors in Russia and Europe were fueled with natural uranium. CANDU still has it as an option.

The USN wanted high power density with long lifetime  and were happy to use high neutron absorbing materials to get it, offsetting that with high enrichement (because they could).  Another irrelevant requirement earth based PWR's inherited that can be completely ignored on mars.

If you chose to ditch UO2 the 2nd most researched approach is metal alloys. About 13x the thermal conductivity and castable at 1300c, not the 17-1800c that UO2 needs to be sintered at (in 100% H2 or Ar/4%H2 at best). EBR II also demonstated recycling and refabrication by remote control for years at ORNL.

Metal fuels Achilles Heel is swelling (about 10%) but a lot of work was done on low swelling alloys for sodium cooled FBRs in the 60's and 70's. IIRC quite a lot of progress was made. Whereas UO2 is 1/3 U atoms metallic fuel would be more like 80-90% U atoms. The metal "popcorned" into a foam, but the alloying elements made it weak enough that it could not excert substantial force on the cladding. So no harm done.

In principle melting into a tall, thin(ish) crucible would seperate the various TRU's and FP's based on density (although it turn out despite higher numbers of neutrons in the nucleaus TRU's are often less dense than either U or Pu, so they'd solidify above the U and PU layers, but still below any of the plausible FP's, with their much lower densities
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2376 on: 04/13/2023 09:48 pm »
A similar system could be used on Earth, except that utility-scale use of methane historically results in methane leaks.
IIRC the industry estimates a typical 3% leakage of Methane, a GH gas 27-30x more potent than CO2.

Sitting behind every "renewable" scheme that isn't backed up by nuclear ready to come on when the sun don't shine, the wind don't blow and the dams empty.  :(
3% is high, maybe accurate for a case with zero mitigation.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline LMT

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2377 on: 04/13/2023 11:08 pm »
I've done some work here (with others) on the cost of nuclear vs solar, but I had handwaved in energy storage, and I would like to go a bit further, and at the same time review this!

https://marspedia.org/Cost_of_energy_on_Mars

Quote from: lamontagne
Cost on Earth:  $800/m2

Bulk-print panels might cost 100x less per square meter.  For example, Paul Dastoor prints half a km at a time, at ~ 100 g/m2, ballparking commercial cost at $8/m2.  His current, short-lived substrate must be upgraded, but PEN might serve.

Also, your nuclear pricing isn't plausible.  NASA has guessed more than its $20 million Krusty demo cost to get a Kilopower successor to the Moon, delivering 40 kWe.  (See Phase 1 awards.)  You claim $37.5 million to deliver MINERAL's 2 MWe, oddly.  MINERAL is no simpler than Kilopower.  And unlike Kilopower, MINERAL is a grad-school model, on paper.  $37.5 million might cover a lab demo.



« Last Edit: 04/14/2023 01:07 am by LMT »

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2378 on: 04/13/2023 11:55 pm »
...use ISRU fuel and oxidizer to cover the last 5% of annual electricity usage.

You might calculate for a realistic industrial scenario, e.g., at fleet scale.

Winter daily insolation might be 10% of summer max, even less under winter storms.  How to maintain winter industry in the worst case?
Size the solar to supply 100% of immediate survival needs under worst case conditions. Budget solar power greater than this to support a relatively low level of other activities with surplus power going to storage in one form or another. This keeps everybody and all programs working at a steady rate all year while establishing a robust storage buffer for that unexpected 90 sol dust storm.


If things go sideways somehow, chances are good that extra power will help. That's when it's time to reassess the non survival power budget and redirect as appropriate.


At some point there will be parties other than NASA, academia and SX. They will always have the option of designing, shipping and installing their own power subgrid to meet their own quirky power needs.
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Power options for a Mars settlement
« Reply #2379 on: 04/14/2023 05:23 am »
A similar system could be used on Earth, except that utility-scale use of methane historically results in methane leaks.
IIRC the industry estimates a typical 3% leakage of Methane, a GH gas 27-30x more potent than CO2.

Sitting behind every "renewable" scheme that isn't backed up by nuclear ready to come on when the sun don't shine, the wind don't blow and the dams empty.  :(
3% is high, maybe accurate for a case with zero mitigation.
Also not a problem on mars, where a bit more global warming would be a good thing.

OTOH on mars you are going to have to make all the methane to begin with, and people get a lot more careful when a resouce no longer just comes out the ground.  :(
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

 

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