I know there are mixed feelings about the viability of wind power but I do wonder if locating turbines in the upper reaches of Noctis Labyrinthus could take advantage of katabatic winds coming down off Tharsis?
Quote from: LMT on 03/29/2023 03:55 pmWhat Would Battery Manufacturing Look Like on the Moon and Mars?QuoteFor martian battery manufacturing, NaClO4 undoubtedly appears as the best option due to its immediate availability on the surface.Notably, a salt harvester extracting perchlorate salts for their liquid electrolyte (NaClO4) could also extract sulfate salts for a traditional saltwater battery electrolyte (e.g., Na2SO4). Also, NaClO4 can be used in a 5 M saltwater battery.Previously: 1 2 3 To use regolith minerals, in this example for batteries, first you have to find them. Some of these minerals are exotic or complicated to refine, for example on earth. So until a particular operation of In-Situ mineral utilization matures, that operation will look like major prospecting and infrastructure bootstrapping. That is unlike the Figure 1 infographic in the quoted article. Of course we're discussing Martian Sodium, sulphates, and perchlorates, which might contribute to some kind of battery. But not a spectacular rechargeable battery chemistry like LiPo etc. Change my mind: show me a relevant lab prototype battery.
What Would Battery Manufacturing Look Like on the Moon and Mars?QuoteFor martian battery manufacturing, NaClO4 undoubtedly appears as the best option due to its immediate availability on the surface.Notably, a salt harvester extracting perchlorate salts for their liquid electrolyte (NaClO4) could also extract sulfate salts for a traditional saltwater battery electrolyte (e.g., Na2SO4). Also, NaClO4 can be used in a 5 M saltwater battery.Previously: 1 2 3
For martian battery manufacturing, NaClO4 undoubtedly appears as the best option due to its immediate availability on the surface.
If this works for Earth, would it also work for Mars? I think so, but there have been diverging opinions over the years. Master plan part IIIHow heavy would a Master plan part III be for Mars?
It's not a "magic bullet" solution you can sum up in one sentence. Solving a huge global energy problem requires complex ideas. No surprise, really.The most digestible version is probably the Supercut below.
The item that impacts Mars design the most is probably the reliance on batteries, that are fine for a few days but not for months. They do cover hydrogen storage and methane production for industrial processes, that might be used on Mars to cover winter months and dust storms. Wonder if we could adapt the usage models?
...use ISRU fuel and oxidizer to cover the last 5% of annual electricity usage.
You oversize the solar so it still performs in winter, then you use ISRU fuel and oxidizer to cover the last 5% of annual electricity usage. Depending on power usage, even just pausing ISRU propellant usage could be enough to get through the sand storms.
Quote from: Robotbeat on 04/13/2023 04:40 pmYou oversize the solar so it still performs in winter, then you use ISRU fuel and oxidizer to cover the last 5% of annual electricity usage. Depending on power usage, even just pausing ISRU propellant usage could be enough to get through the sand storms.I've always though so, but it would be nice to actually model it.
A similar system could be used on Earth, except that utility-scale use of methane historically results in methane leaks.
An interesting question would be what would an indigenous nuclear power system on Mars look like?That's one where nearly everything is Made on Mars(TM). Keep in mind1) Power is likely expensive2) Water is likely very expensive3) CO2 is available outside your front door (or rather the airlock to your burrow)4) As there are no seas on mars a fuel form that's stable in seawater IE UO2 is irrelevant. It is also energy intensive to make and has both poor thermal conductivity and a lower percentage of Uranium per unit mass than other options. Now you can call on the earth for knowledge and simulations but you're going to have to make it on mars, or find a way to raise the cash to buy (and ship) any parts you need. I'm interested to see how that would change peoples approach.
Fuel is the lightest part of a nuclear reactor. Most likely it would come from Earth? Are there uranium rich minerals on Mars? We need boots on the ground to know that.
Quote from: DanClemmensen on 04/13/2023 05:31 pmA similar system could be used on Earth, except that utility-scale use of methane historically results in methane leaks.IIRC the industry estimates a typical 3% leakage of Methane, a GH gas 27-30x more potent than CO2.Sitting behind every "renewable" scheme that isn't backed up by nuclear ready to come on when the sun don't shine, the wind don't blow and the dams empty.
I've done some work here (with others) on the cost of nuclear vs solar, but I had handwaved in energy storage, and I would like to go a bit further, and at the same time review this!https://marspedia.org/Cost_of_energy_on_Mars
Cost on Earth: $800/m2
Quote from: Robotbeat on 04/13/2023 04:40 pm...use ISRU fuel and oxidizer to cover the last 5% of annual electricity usage.You might calculate for a realistic industrial scenario, e.g., at fleet scale.Winter daily insolation might be 10% of summer max, even less under winter storms. How to maintain winter industry in the worst case?
Quote from: john smith 19 on 04/13/2023 05:47 pmQuote from: DanClemmensen on 04/13/2023 05:31 pmA similar system could be used on Earth, except that utility-scale use of methane historically results in methane leaks.IIRC the industry estimates a typical 3% leakage of Methane, a GH gas 27-30x more potent than CO2.Sitting behind every "renewable" scheme that isn't backed up by nuclear ready to come on when the sun don't shine, the wind don't blow and the dams empty. 3% is high, maybe accurate for a case with zero mitigation.