Jupiter DIRECT - Livestream Discussion - Sat 11/11/2023

[woods170]

I now understand the viewing figure is both signed in and not, together.

Ross.

Kudos for you being on the event. Much appreciated!

I watched the recording after it was over. Didn't have time in my schedule to tune in for the live event. Noticed that you addressed my question around the 1-hour mark. It is clear that, contrary to what Delta9250 claims on Twitter, the stock ET tankage had enough structural margin for the Jupiter 130 and required only very little modifications for Jupiter 240. Thanks for answering my question.

However, I will say something about this event drawing not all that many viewers. IMO that is partly because on Twitter (err, I mean X) David Willis has a tendency to act somewhat irrational regarding his love for SLS. The result is that quite a few people in the spaceflight community don't take David all that serious. And that included his YouTube stuff.

So, although the live stream was a good event, I'm afraid that the aversion that some of the spaceflight community has against David Willis will have negatively influenced the viewing figure.

[JAFO]

I now understand the viewing figure is both signed in and not, together.

Ross.

Kudos for you being on the event. Much appreciated!
....

However, I will say something about this event drawing not all that many viewers. IMO that is partly because on Twitter (err, I mean X) David Willis has a tendency to act somewhat irrational regarding his love for SLS. The result is that quite a few people in the spaceflight community don't take David all that serious. And that included his YouTube stuff.

So, although the live stream was a good event, I'm afraid that the aversion that some of the spaceflight community has against David Willis will have negatively influenced the viewing figure.

Hopefully other websites will post links to the recording and write an article about it. Eric Berger,  Jalopnik, others, are you reading this?

[Pheogh]

Working on getting the old website back up so everyone can look at images and download past presentations. Will post here once it's back up.

[woods170]

I now understand the viewing figure is both signed in and not, together.

Ross.

Kudos for you being on the event. Much appreciated!
....

However, I will say something about this event drawing not all that many viewers. IMO that is partly because on Twitter (err, I mean X) David Willis has a tendency to act somewhat irrational regarding his love for SLS. The result is that quite a few people in the spaceflight community don't take David all that serious. And that included his YouTube stuff.

So, although the live stream was a good event, I'm afraid that the aversion that some of the spaceflight community has against David Willis will have negatively influenced the viewing figure.

Hopefully other websites will post links to the recording and write an article about it. Eric Berger,  Jalopnik, others, are you reading this?

I don't think Berger is on NSF. If he is, he has kept himself hidden extremely well.

[Robotbeat]

I now understand the viewing figure is both signed in and not, together.

Ross.

Kudos for you being on the event. Much appreciated!

I watched the recording after it was over. Didn't have time in my schedule to tune in for the live event. Noticed that you addressed my question around the 1-hour mark. It is clear that, contrary to what Delta9250 claims on Twitter, the stock ET tankage had enough structural margin for the Jupiter 130 and required only very little modifications for Jupiter 240. Thanks for answering my question.

However, I will say something about this event drawing not all that many viewers. IMO that is partly because on Twitter (err, I mean X) David Willis has a tendency to act somewhat irrational regarding his love for SLS. The result is that quite a few people in the spaceflight community don't take David all that serious. And that included his YouTube stuff.

So, although the live stream was a good event, I'm afraid that the aversion that some of the spaceflight community has against David Willis will have negatively influenced the viewing figure.

David Willis is weird like that, but I like him.

People should be more willing to disagree with people while not disliking them.

[JAFO]

Question: I was under the impression that the ET I-beam "detuned" the thrust oscillations of the SRMs, so when the Stick was proposed it was believed that undampened TO would disable the crew. But IIRC, at about 2:31 you talk about how later investigation found that the I-beam actually amplified the vibration.


Do you have time to expand on how that changed, please?

[kraisee]

Question: I was under the impression that the ET I-beam "detuned" the thrust oscillations of the SRMs, so when the Stick was proposed it was believed that undampened TO would disable the crew. But IIRC, at about 2:31 you talk about how later investigation found that the I-beam actually amplified the vibration.


Do you have time to expand on how that changed, please?

Not sure about exactly amplifying them, but on the later Shuttle missions they added sensors and telemetry to allow them to see what was happening to the SRB's and the ET connections, and what they found surprised - and concerned - quite a few in the program: The natural operating frequencies of the SRB's harmonized together at about 40-50 seconds into flight and remained completely in-sync until separation.

In practice, this meant that when the left SRB chuffed and pushed upwards with increased force on the I beam connecting them through the ET, the right hand one was also pushing upwards at the exact same instant. A fraction of a second later they were both relaxing a bit (compared to the baseline thrust force) and this cycle continued through the flight, both SRB's exerting forces increasing and decreasing on the attachment points at the same time.

The ET's I beam was designed to support such loads, but at the time it was designed nobody thought that it would experience those forces in-sync for any real length of time during a flight - they expected the SRB frequencies to be decoupled and should have operated at separate and offset frequencies.

The big takeaway was that nobody thought the frequency of one SRB could be changed by external forces. They thought the internal forces would massively dominate things and they would just do their own thing as a result. When they saw this on multiple Shuttle flights, that the operating frequency of one SRB could be altered by an external frequency, enough that they synchronized, the question became: What resonant frequency problems could result in flight in different configurations - such as the Ares-I?

And we all know that story.

Ross.

[kraisee]

David is a really nice guy! Yes, he is an SLS hugger, but we all have our favourites and that's a normal thing IMHO. He's young enough that this the only rocket he has known that could get people away from Earth. To him, this is his Saturn-V. I get that and I'm grateful that SLS exists and is creating that passionate drive in people like David - that's a really good thing!!

I'm more of a cautious pragmatist myself. I'm certainly glad SLS got built compared to the unaffordable Ares-I and Ares-V option. I also think SLS is a much better option than having NASA's budget reamed and given to other agencies. While I certainly have real issues with SLS's costs, I also recognize that things could always be much worse.

But I'm also equally glad there are other players out there these days, who are willing to take big risks trying to build truly innovative and unique things that are really pushing the envelope.

I only wish NASA could do more of that risk-taking themselves. They can't, for political reasons, but it sure would be nice if they could find a way.

Ross.

[JAFO]

People should be more willing to disagree with people while not disliking them.

"If you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. If you're already smart, surround yourself with smart people that disagree with you."
Isaac Jaffe

[Pheogh]

David is a very kind, enthusiastic, and inquisitive young man. I say this having spent 3 separate attempts to see SLS launch with him (which included 8+ hours waiting in the cold metal stands at the Saturn Center at KSC each time). I was also lucky enough to spend time with him and see IFT-1 at Starbase. I cannot say enough nice things about him! A true fan of all things space and NASA.

As we often said during the whole saga of direct... "First They Ignore You, Then They Laugh at You (his HLS post), Then They Attack You, Then You Win"

I think I speak for the whole team when I say whether there were 3 people viewing the stream or a 1000, it was a great experience to reminisce with the whole team again on the incredible effort of DIRECT. To this day, professionally DIRECT is one of the things I am most proud of.

The long history of DIRECT is cataloged here on NSF (Thanks Chris B) and hopefully always will be for the intellectually honest to go read and digest the way David and Lewis have.

Thank you again David and Lewis for hosting the stream.

[leovinus]

PS: Probably a good idea if someone can download a copy of the archived YouTube stream and discussion and attach here on this thread for posterity. Am in the middle of a move and do not have the resources to do it myself.

[woods170]

David is a really nice guy! Yes, he is an SLS hugger, but we all have our favourites and that's a normal thing IMHO.

Yeah, he seems like a nice guy. I have no problems with him. Unlike one of my co-volunteers at the NRM museum, who basically detests David. He sometimes gets into a Twitter fight with him despite both of them having each other in their ignore lists.

But I digress.

[clongton]

I have to say that getting together with everyone for the first time in YEARS was an awesome experience. It says a lot about our relationship with each other when after all that time we pick up our conversation right where we left off, as if it were only yesterday that we last spoke. We were, each of us, in each other's heads so completely back then that at times it seemed like we all had one single mind. You guys didn't get to see the first hour, which was BEFORE the livestream started. We started at 11am eastern to make sure everything was connected properly so the livestream would go smoothly. We chatted with each other so easily, like we had never stopped.

[kraisee]

Chuck and I are going to discuss a possible book later this week. Far too early to promise anything on that front, but we're going to talk and see where it leads us.

Obviously, we'll bring Philip and Steve in to the conversation too, but if any of the other members of DIRECT - either public or private side - would be at all interested in contributing to such an effort, please do drop me a line.

If such a project really does goes ahead, I'll mention it here on NSF.

Ross.

[kraisee]

Yeah, he seems like a nice guy. I have no problems with him. Unlike one of my co-volunteers at the NRM museum, who basically detests David. He sometimes gets into a Twitter fight with him despite both of them having each other in their ignore lists.

Social media really has contributed to breaking down civil human interaction in the most harmful way for all of society.

I still hope the pendulum might swing back again, before this harm becomes permanent, and leaves us all in a far worse world.

There's a reason why all the executives at the social media platforms banned their own kids from using them.

Ross.

[Eric Hedman]

I now understand the viewing figure is both signed in and not, together.

Ross.

Kudos for you being on the event. Much appreciated!
....

However, I will say something about this event drawing not all that many viewers. IMO that is partly because on Twitter (err, I mean X) David Willis has a tendency to act somewhat irrational regarding his love for SLS. The result is that quite a few people in the spaceflight community don't take David all that serious. And that included his YouTube stuff.

So, although the live stream was a good event, I'm afraid that the aversion that some of the spaceflight community has against David Willis will have negatively influenced the viewing figure.

Hopefully other websites will post links to the recording and write an article about it. Eric Berger,  Jalopnik, others, are you reading this?

I don't think Berger is on NSF. If he is, he has kept himself hidden extremely well.

I don't know about Eric Berger, but over the years a few well known and very influential people have told me that they come to this site and other space focused sites from time to time to read what is going on.  You might be surprised by who is reading these threads.

[AS-503]

Chuck and I are going to discuss a possible book later this week. Far too early to promise anything on that front, but we're going to talk and see where it leads us.

Obviously, we'll bring Philip and Steve in to the conversation too, but if any of the other members of DIRECT - either public or private side - would be at all interested in contributing to such an effort, please do drop me a line.

If such a project really does goes ahead, I'll mention it here on NSF.

Ross.

Ross,

My memory is a little fuzzy from that 2006-ish timeframe but wasn't your old profile avatar/pic the dinosaur/asteroid meme with the dinosaur being the Constellation/Ares ESAS architecture and the meteor the Direct proposal?

[kraisee]

Ross,

My memory is a little fuzzy from that 2006-ish timeframe but wasn't your old profile avatar/pic the dinosaur/asteroid meme with the dinosaur being the Constellation/Ares ESAS architecture and the meteor the Direct proposal?

It wasn't mine, I used the main Jupiter launch beauty shot for my avatar, but I do recall someone on the team used that one for their avatar on here.

Ross.

[catdlr]

PS: Probably a good idea if someone can download a copy of the archived YouTube stream and discussion and attach here on this thread for posterity. Am in the middle of a move and do not have the resources to do it myself.

leovinus,
I have downloaded a copy for my archives.  I've requested permission to post on this thread.  Chris B. usually doesn't allow that if it's on YouTube because it costs NSF storage to maintain a copy.  But I do know from experience that many old NSF threads, with YouTube posts, are no longer available (i.e., broken links) because some YouTube channels have been deleted or disappeared for copyright issues, etc.  Once I get authorization, I'll post in this thread.  It's 1.9GB. (3hr55m) at 1080P.   I may have to split it up into one-hour segments.   I will also upload a copy to my own YouTube Channel for another archive location.

Best,
Tony

[Chris Bergin]

PS: Probably a good idea if someone can download a copy of the archived YouTube stream and discussion and attach here on this thread for posterity. Am in the middle of a move and do not have the resources to do it myself.

We can't reupload content from youtube channel. No one ever do that please.