Author Topic: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5  (Read 477039 times)

Offline catdlr

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1880 on: 01/12/2025 11:50 am »
Phillip Sloss Report:

Starship flight test 7 on deck, Mobile Launcher-2 "rig and set," and Artemis II stacking continues



Quote
Jan 12, 2025
It's back to work after New Year's and in this video I'll go over how NASA's Artemis programs have resumed development and preparations for Artemis II, III, and IV.  SpaceX is ready to launch the seventh Starship flight test as soon as January 13 and they provided some details about the major, block upgrade to the ship.  Bechtel reached the "rig and set" milestone for construction of Mobile Launcher-2, with the first umbilical tower module now stacked on the launch platform.

Activity has resumed inside the Vehicle Assembly Building at Kennedy Space Center, and there's more to cover in the VAB Transfer Aisle and High Bays 3 and 2.  Exploration Ground Systems added the fourth of ten SLS solid rocket motor segments to the Artemis II stack and is looking to add the next few soon.  I'll go over that and dig into some details from Boeing about their new SLS Core Stage final assembly facility in High Bay 2, called the Core Stage Vertical Integration Center.

Looking ahead, President Trump is about to start his second term and so we may finally start to hear what Elon Musk's DOGE review has in mind for Artemis in the next few weeks.

Imagery is courtesy of NASA, except where noted.

00:00 Intro
01:08 Starship flight test 7 currently scheduled for January 13th
03:05 A few details about Starship HLS Earth orbit refueling plans for Artemis III and IV
04:43 Mobile Launcher-2 umbilical tower assembly begins with the "rig and set" milestone
06:59 More detail about Boeing's new Core Stage Vertical Integration Center in VAB High Bay 2
15:36 Other news and notes, beginning with an Artemis II booster stacking update
17:50 Axiom EMU 2024 year-end slide show
18:29 Recently released images of EUS Green Run preparations in October at Stennis Space Center
19:17 October pictures of Core Stage-3 LOX tank cleaning preparations
19:49 Orion test article, formerly the Artemis I crew module, returns to KSC after Ohio testing
20:38 Artemis politics: Trump/Musk transition only a week away, Artemis impacts remain to be seen
21:50 Forward outlook for Artemis II and III at the beginning of the year
24:24 Thanks for watching!
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Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1881 on: 01/12/2025 03:51 pm »
Phillip Sloss Report:

Starship flight test 7 on deck, Mobile Launcher-2 "rig and set," and Artemis II stacking continues


Philipp mentions the attached document at the beginning of the video which has details about refilling for the Artemis III and IV missions. For these lunar missions, it seems that there is one refilling in LEO and another one in MEO/HEO:

Application:
https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/swr031b.hts?q_set=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number/%3D/SATLOA2024121800288&prepare=&column=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

Attachments to the Application (see the Technical Annex attachment):
https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/attachment_menu.hts?id_app_num=154189&acct=599269&id_form_num=12&filing_key=-519848
« Last Edit: 01/12/2025 04:05 pm by yg1968 »

Offline catdlr

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1882 on: 01/19/2025 12:27 pm »
Phillip Sloss's weekly video reports on both BO and SpaceX test flights and his weekly Artemis updates. The Artemis update starts at 6:45



« Last Edit: 01/20/2025 03:14 am by catdlr »
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Offline catdlr

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1883 on: 01/23/2025 03:34 pm »
NASA Invests in Artemis Studies to Support Long-Term Lunar Exploration

Quote
NASA awarded new study contracts Thursday to help support life and work on the lunar surface. As part of the agency’s blueprint for deep space exploration to support the Artemis campaign, nine American companies in seven states are receiving awards.

The Next Space Technologies for Exploration Partnerships Appendix R contracts will advance learning in managing everyday challenges in the lunar environment identified in the agency’s Moon to Mars architecture.

“These contract awards are the catalyst for developing critical capabilities for the Artemis missions and the everyday needs of astronauts for long-term exploration on the lunar surface,” said Nujoud Merancy, deputy associate administrator, Strategy and Architecture Office at NASA Headquarters in Washington. “The strong response to our request for proposals is a testament to the interest in human exploration and the growing deep-space economy. This is an important step to a sustainable return to the Moon that, along with our commercial partners, will lead to innovation and expand our knowledge for future lunar missions, looking toward Mars.”

The selected proposals have a combined value of $24 million, spread across multiple companies, and propose innovative strategies and concepts for logistics and mobility solutions including advanced robotics and autonomous capabilities:

Blue Origin, Merritt Island, Florida – logistical carriers; logistics handling and offloading; logistics transfer; staging, storage, and tracking; surface cargo and mobility; and integrated strategies
Intuitive Machines, Houston, Texas – logistics handling and offloading; and surface cargo and mobility
Leidos, Reston, Virginia – logistical carriers; logistics transfer; staging, storage, and tracking; trash management; and integrated strategies
Lockheed Martin, Littleton, Colorado – logistical carriers; logistics transfer; and surface cargo and mobility
MDA Space, Houston – surface cargo and mobility
Moonprint, Dover, Delaware – logistical carriers
Pratt Miller Defense, New Hudson, Michigan – surface cargo and mobility
Sierra Space, Louisville, Colorado – logistical carriers; logistics transfer; staging, storage, and tracking; trash management; and integrated strategies
Special Aerospace Services, Huntsville, Alabama – logistical carriers; logistics handling and offloading; logistics transfer; staging, storage, and tracking; trash management; surface cargo and mobility; and integrated strategies
NASA is working with industry, academia, and the international community to continuously evolve the blueprint for crewed exploration and taking a methodical approach to investigating solutions that set humanity on a path to the Moon, Mars, and beyond.

For more on NASA’s mission to return to the Moon, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/humans-in-space/artemis

-end-

https://www.nasa.gov/news-release/nasa-invests-in-artemis-studies-to-support-long-term-lunar-exploration/
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Online VSECOTSPE

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1884 on: 01/23/2025 07:32 pm »
$24M on logistics studies?  What?!  The program put less than $5M into the studies for the rover downselect...

It’s only a drop in a mostly wasteful bucket of billions, but still...

Edit/Add:  The industry studies for Mars Sample Return were only $13.5M max (and probably less than that).
« Last Edit: 01/24/2025 12:29 am by VSECOTSPE »

Online clongton

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1885 on: 01/24/2025 12:03 am »

$24M on logistics studies?  What?!  The program put less than $5M into the studies for the rover downselect...

It’s only a drop in a mostly wasteful bucket of billions, but still...


I know. For $24 million I'd expect a LOT! I just don't see it.
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Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1886 on: 01/24/2025 07:47 am »

$24M on logistics studies?  What?!  The program put less than $5M into the studies for the rover downselect...

It’s only a drop in a mostly wasteful bucket of billions, but still...


I know. For $24 million I'd expect a LOT! I just don't see it.
Has anyone forwarded a link to the Department of Government Efficiency?

Having been involved in Logistics, it is something you have to get right along the whole supply chain or you will have major problems.  Their is not enough detail on what they are doing to to know if the cost is outrageous or not.  Applying lessons learned from intermodal supply chains would be worth including.

Offline TheRadicalModerate

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1887 on: 01/24/2025 10:51 pm »

$24M on logistics studies?  What?!  The program put less than $5M into the studies for the rover downselect...

It’s only a drop in a mostly wasteful bucket of billions, but still...


I know. For $24 million I'd expect a LOT! I just don't see it.

I'd guess that a lot of it is going to Blue, and will be used to firm up payload attachment and deployment capabilities for the HDL version of the lander.

Assuming that there's still a sustainable lunar program when the political chaos settles (and I'll be extremely disappointed if there's not), NASA has a pretty big architectural decision to make:  Are they going to transfer surface-bound payloads from their launchers/OTVs to HDL landers, or just concentrate on HDL architectures that are one-shots, launched with payloads pre-integrated on Earth?  The former allows you to use the "reusable" buzz word, but it's not necessarily as cost-effective as an expendable.  Those trade studies--and figuring out how real on-orbit transshipment might work--are well worth doing.

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1888 on: 01/24/2025 11:28 pm »
NASA awards Artemis logistics studies:
https://spacenews.com/nasa-awards-artemis-logistics-studies/

Quote from: Space News article
NASA said these new studies, formally known as NextSTEP-2 Appendix R, were initiated to address gaps identified in the development of the agency’s Moon to Mars Architecture. The overall architecture was missing an integrated surface logistics architecture and uncrewed surface mobility systems for lunar surface assets, NASA stated in the NextSTEP solicitation.

The solicitation set a limit of $1 million for each of seven study topics, and an overall bid limit of $4 million if companies submitted proposals for multiple topics. The studies are intended from be completed in about a year.
« Last Edit: 01/24/2025 11:29 pm by yg1968 »

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1889 on: 01/25/2025 01:23 am »

$24M on logistics studies?  What?!  The program put less than $5M into the studies for the rover downselect...

It’s only a drop in a mostly wasteful bucket of billions, but still...


I know. For $24 million I'd expect a LOT! I just don't see it.
Has anyone forwarded a link to the Department of Government Efficiency?

Having been involved in Logistics, it is something you have to get right along the whole supply chain or you will have major problems.  Their is not enough detail on what they are doing to to know if the cost is outrageous or not.  Applying lessons learned from intermodal supply chains would be worth including.
Also having background in logistics, a big piece of it is commonality. Standard pallet size, fork lifts, dock doors and containers as examples. With the size disparity of the landers it'll be tough to get agreement on this.


ISTM the most that can come out of these studies would be a road map for the 2030s and ad hoc chaos in the meantime. The traffic won't be picking up until the 30s so it shouldn't be all that much chaos.


Whatever comes out of this will be a roadmap for Mars too. Got to wonder if the standards would be international. Currently containers and pallets are universal and probably forklifts and dock sizes.
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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1890 on: 01/25/2025 09:09 pm »
Logistics commonality and variance of lander size parallels a problem that is entering my life. It's a good problem.


I've finally pulled the trigger on some serious Astro gear and need to figure out how pack it out. The solution looks to be a combination of the large modular tool/equipment boxes offered by Milwaukee, DeWalt and others, and smaller foam lined camera and gun cases offered by Pelican and others. The smaller cases will load into the big modular boxes.


Smaller landers would only carry smaller standardized equivalents to the camera/gun cases and monsters like StarShip could carry the equivalent of the larger stacking boxes that in turn hold the smaller cases. Probably an easily disassembled framework made up of standard dimensional members that will always be welcome.


Until other big ships enter service there's no need to standardize dimensions at this scale, and by the time that happens there may be a standard de facto in place.
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline catdlr

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1891 on: 01/26/2025 11:49 am »
A report from Phillip Sloss (Artemis updates starts at 7:09)

Is politics freezing Artemis? NASA quiet as Trump takes over

Quote
Jan 26, 2025
President Trump is back in office and the new administration immediately broke with the automatic line of succession for NASA Administrator by designating Kennedy Space Center director Janet Petro to be the Acting Administrator over Associate Administrator Jim Free.  The move was made without further comment from the administration and any comment from NASA, but in this week's video, I'll take a look at what happened and how it could be another sign of things to come.

NASA put out a press release about future business contracts for Artemis lunar surface logistics, but those studies might not turn into hardware for years and won't be utilized until well into the next decade.  And besides that, the space agency was quiet about the present, where the future of the current Artemis plan could hang in the balance.

While we wait to hear back from NASA public affairs again, I'll also review the couple of Artemis news shorts that were the long and short of the feed for the week.

Imagery is courtesy of NASA, except where noted.

News articles cited:
https://spacenews.com/second-trump-administration-begins-with-confusion-on-acting-nasa-leadership/

00:00 Intro
00:49 Trump designates Janet Petro to be acting NASA administrator
05:17 NASA still releasing information about "the" future, but not talking about the jeopardy of the immediate future for Artemis
06:12 Other notes for another week light on Artemis news from NASA, still waiting for more Starship flight test post-mortems
07:09 A brief Artemis II stacking update
07:40 Gateway HALO module getting ready for transportation
08:52 A stealth update on the launch date for the initial Gateway elements
09:46 Video of three-month old EUS Umbilical testing released
10:34 Thanks for watching!

« Last Edit: 01/26/2025 11:52 am by catdlr »
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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1892 on: 01/28/2025 12:49 am »

Decent summary of Artemis-related action/speculation to date under Trump II:

Quote
The idea of scrapping a return to the Moon in favor of Mars was something Trump suggested he would pursue on the campaign trail last fall, and he added new fuel to that debate in his inaugural address. “We will pursue our manifest destiny into the stars, launching American astronauts to plant the Stars and Stripes on the planet Mars,” Trump said, comments that generated a line of applause from the audience and support from SpaceX’s Elon Musk, sitting with other VIPs behind the podium.

Trump offered no other details in his speech, including no timetable, although many assumed he wanted astronauts on Mars while he was still in office. While sending humans to Mars in the next four years does not technically violate the laws of physics, it does run afoul of precepts of sound engineering. The next launch window for a Mars mission is late 2026, too soon for even Musk to consider a crewed mission: he said last year he was instead considering launching uncrewed Starships in that opportunity. The following window, two years later, would be too late to get humans on Mars before January 20, 2029, even if all the other obstacles to a crewed mission could be overcome by then.

Those challenges would not prevent the administration from shifting the focus of NASA’s human spaceflight efforts from the Moon to Mars, or at the least making major changes to Artemis. “Regarding space, the Artemis architecture is extremely inefficient, as it is a jobs-maximizing program, not a results-maximizing program,” Musk posted on social media on Christmas Day. “Something entirely new is needed.”

For now, NASA is proceeding with Artemis as-is. Last week, the agency selected nine companies for studies of lunar logistics and surface mobility for later phases of Artemis, when NASA anticipates a longer-term presence on the Moon. The studies will cover topics ranging from cargo handling to trash management...

Any major changes to Artemis would likely face opposition by some members of Congress. Notably, the vice chair of the commerce, justice and science subcommittee of the House Appropriations Committee, which funds NASA, in the new Congress is Rep. Dale Strong (R-AL), whose district includes the Marshall Space Flight Center.

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4927/1

Offline Hadley Delta

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1893 on: 01/29/2025 12:54 am »
If Trump is persuaded that footprints on Mars is not possible during his term, then Artemis - in at least some form - is probably safe, but a Muskification of the preferred technology seems quite likely from current reporting.

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1894 on: 01/29/2025 01:25 am »
If Trump is persuaded that footprints on Mars is not possible during his term, then Artemis - in at least some form - is probably safe, but a Muskification of the preferred technology seems quite likely from current reporting.

Far too many people forget that Mr. Musk is planning on going to Mars with or without NASA, and with or without Mr. Trump. He does not need the political support of nor permission from either to do that, and in fact, was well on his way toward that goal on his own dime long before NASA even asked him to help them get to the moon. The moon is, to him, a side distraction, that he is not letting get in the way of his own Mars plans. Note all the activity going on at Starbase, Texas and Cape Canaveral, Florida. He is NOT building any of that infrastructure or Starship vehicles for NASA or for Mr. Trump. He is building all of it to go to Mars, with or without either.
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Offline Hadley Delta

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1895 on: 01/29/2025 01:33 am »
My comment was not about Musk, but about Trump. If he sees that a moon landing is the only 
 viable option during his term he will support it, but he may be influenced to change the means of getting there. But I don't think Musk would be averse to any add additional plaudits that might come his way.

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1896 on: 01/29/2025 02:30 am »
[...] Mr. Musk is planning on going to Mars with or without NASA, and with or without Mr. Trump. He does not need the political support of nor permission from either to do that

The SpaceX private army isn't (yet) strong enough to take on the military of the United States. So at least for now SpaceX needs federal permission to operate their LGM-Starship ballistic missile launch facilities.

Oh wait. This is an Artemis thread.
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Offline catdlr

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1897 on: 01/29/2025 07:11 pm »
Philip Sloss Reports:

Takeaways about what NASA is saying about Starship progress for Artemis



Quote
Jan 29, 2025
It might be overlooked between the Starship flight test spectaculars and Elon Musk's ambitions to send ships to Mars in the 2026 planetary window, but Starship is still central to NASA's plans to land two astronauts on the Moon on Artemis III.  The press conference that the space agency held back in early December started with announcing their decision about the Orion heatshield for Artemis II, but they also spent time answering questions about Starship HLS progress for Artemis III.

In this video, I go over my takeaways from the press conference about what NASA said about Starship development for Artemis III and the overall situation for the first Artemis lunar landing mission.  After that, I'll highlight what NASA leadership said about the possible roles that Starship and SpaceX might play in very next Artemis mission. 

NASA is still planning for Artemis II to launch in about a year, but they also talked about different ideas for testing that might be possible with a SpaceX Starship in space at the same time as Orion and its four-person crew circumnavigates the Moon.

Imagery is courtesy of NASA, except where noted.

00:00 Intro
00:59 Tremendous progress still simultaneous with uncertainty about Starship Artemis III schedule
07:09 NASA looking at adding Starship tests to Artemis II
08:16 Some background into why NASA is looking bringing Starship into Artemis sooner
13:29 Elaborating on some early ideas for Starship and Artemis II
19:28 Summarizing the takeaways
21:37 Thanks for watching!

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1898 on: 01/30/2025 08:42 am »

Artemis contractors defend current architecture as fastest way to return to the moon

Quote
During a panel about the upcoming Artemis 2 mission at the SpaceCom conference here Jan. 29, Kirk Shireman, Orion program manager at Lockheed Martin, said he’s familiar with the uncertainty that comes with changes in administrations, and urged employees to tune out the distraction. “The best thing we can do is keep your head down and work as hard as you can.”

He said NASA’s current approach to Artemis, which uses the Orion spacecraft launched on the Space Launch System rocket, as well as the lunar Gateway and landers being developed by Blue Origin and SpaceX, remained effective despite criticism about costs and delays.

“What we need to do is tell the people in the new administration and anyone we can talk to this about is, hey, the fastest way to get humans back on the moon is to stay the course,” he said. “Things take a long time to build and certify and, if you throw them away every four years and start over, that’s probably the slowest and most expensive thing we could do.”

“Stay the course. Let’s put humans back on the moon and let’s go do the things that we’ve been tasked to go do,” he concluded. Others on the panel, including officials from NASA, Boeing, and ground systems contractor Amentum, agreed, but did not add to his comments.

https://spacenews.com/artemis-contractors-defend-current-architecture-as-fastest-way-to-return-to-the-moon/

Europe awards $900 million contract for Argonaut lunar lander development

Quote
Thales Alenia Space announced a contract worth nearly $900 million Jan. 30 to develop and deliver the Lunar Descent Element (LDE) for Argonaut, the European Space Agency’s cargo lander slated for missions to the Moon starting in the 2030s.

The contract includes mission design and integration of the LDE, which would be responsible for transporting and landing the spacecraft on the Moon. The LDE would be joined by an adaptable interface element designed to support a wide variety of cargo and scientific payloads.

Thales Alenia Space, a joint venture between France’s Thales and Italy’s Leonardo, said Argonaut’s first mission is expected to deliver navigation and telecommunication payloads, along with an energy generation and storage system, supporting commercial European exploration of the lunar south pole

The European Space Agency is also positioning Argonaut, which has a capacity of approximately two metric tons of cargo, as a potential asset for future NASA Artemis lunar missions.

https://spacenews.com/europe-awards-900-million-contract-for-argonaut-lunar-lander-development/

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 5
« Reply #1899 on: 01/30/2025 04:24 pm »
Quote
“Things take a long time to build and certify and, if you throw them away every four years and start over, that’s probably the slowest and most expensive thing we could do.”
The slowest and most expensive thing we could do was begin fifteen years ago with a system designed to be slow and expensive.

Quote
“Stay the course. Let’s put humans back on the moon and let’s go do the things that we’ve been tasked to go do,” he concluded.
Always a convincing argument coming from the person selling tours of said course.

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