Author Topic: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)  (Read 58730 times)

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #100 on: 07/25/2023 11:17 am »
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/mini-lanceur-maiaspace-est-un-acteur-credible-avec-seulement-14-mois-d-existence-yohann-leroy-966034.html

An interview of the Maiaspace Executive president from last month that wasn't shared (the article only has a soft-paywall) .

Main points:
-Will have 100 employees by the end of July
-Assembled a Full-scale S2 Prototype
-S2 cryo filling tests and S3 tests this summer
-S2 fire tests pushed to 2024 (note: S1 is derived from Themis)
-Orbital launch still planned before late 2025, "more confident in this date than last year"
-Already in promising talks for commercial contracts
-"substantially more" than 1.5t of payload to LEO, "lots of performance margins"
-They Will not sell their services through Arianespace
-Production entirely based in Vernon, with plans for increase in production rate
-"12-24 launches a year by the end of the decade"
-"I only foresee 1-2 viable small launchers in Europe, 4-5 in the world"
-"our ambition is to launch mainly from guyana, but we aren't dismissing other launch sites, like kiruna or andoya"
« Last Edit: 07/25/2023 11:21 am by TheKutKu »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #101 on: 07/25/2023 10:17 pm »
There is good chance maiden flight will be successful as Arianespace are experienced LV builders. Recovery is all new for them so that will require a few failures.

Offline deltaV

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #102 on: 07/26/2023 10:13 pm »
-Will have 100 employees by the end of July
-Orbital launch still planned before late 2025, "more confident in this date than last year"
-"substantially more" than 1.5t of payload to LEO, "lots of performance margins"

It sounds like they are now getting serious. They should have made this 1.5+ tonne payload reusable launcher ~10 years ago instead of Ariane 6 so they could use that experience to build a 20+ tonne payload reusable launcher now, but late is better than never.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #103 on: 07/27/2023 01:21 am »


-Will have 100 employees by the end of July
-Orbital launch still planned before late 2025, "more confident in this date than last year"
-"substantially more" than 1.5t of payload to LEO, "lots of performance margins"

It sounds like they are now getting serious. They should have made this 1.5+ tonne payload reusable launcher ~10 years ago instead of Ariane 6 so they could use that experience to build a 20+ tonne payload reusable launcher now, but late is better than never.

Didn't have the engines then. Plus it would've be competition to ESA funded Vega.

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #104 on: 09/10/2023 11:10 am »
https://europeanspaceflight.com/maiaspace-complete-first-cryogenic-test-of-second-stage-prototype/

Quote
MaiaSpace has completed the first cryogenic test of a full-scale prototype of the Maia rockets second stage.

Maia is a partially reusable two-stage launch vehicle being developed by the ArianeGroup subsidiary. The vehicle is designed to be capable of delivering up to 1,500 kilograms to orbit when its first stage is expended and 500 kilograms when the stage is being recovered. The maiden flight of Maia is expected to occur in late 2025.

The cryogenic testing occurred at ArianeGroups testing facilities in Vernon, France. The prototype stage was designed, built, and integrated by MaiaSpace in less than nine months. Following the success of the first test, the company is moving forward with two additional cryogenic tests that are scheduled to take place this month.

A second Maia second stage prototype is also being manufactured. This stage will be utilized for a hot fire test in early 2024.

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #105 on: 09/15/2023 05:51 pm »


Video of the first S2 cryogenic filling test on July 26, 2023

According to a linkedin post and , it seems they are studying Barge landing offshore (400km from coast) from Kourou.
« Last Edit: 09/15/2023 10:02 pm by TheKutKu »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #106 on: 09/21/2023 09:08 pm »
https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1704881118233641261

Quote
.@ArianeGroup has invested 27 million more into its microlauncher subsidiary @MaiaSpaceOff.

https://europeanspaceflight.com/arianegroup-invests-e27m-more-into-maiaspace/

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #107 on: 12/18/2023 02:05 pm »
https://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/aeronautique/maiaspace-l-arme-francaise-dans-la-guerre-des-petits-lanceurs_877627

"Maiaspace, France's weapon in the small launcher war"
New article

Key points:

-50m tall, 3.5m diameter, 1,500kg to SSO in expendable mode; 500kg in reusable  mode

-Colibri third stage, powered by a Hydrogen-Peroxide/Ethanol engine, brings the payload to 2.5 tons to SSO (comparable, if not higher, to Vega C),  the third stage is being tested each week.

-115 employees, goal of 250-300 in 18 months

-Arianegroup invested 125 millions euros of internal funding in maiaspace.

-3 prototypes rule for each stage, second S2 prototype in H1 2024. Prototypes tested next to factory

-First launch in late 2025, first commercial launch in 2026

-First 3 launches will be expendable, goal is to launch 12-18 times a year by 2028, believe they can get 25% of Market share on the available global launch market.

-Want to win the European Launch challenge, "We're hoping there won't be too many winners"
« Last Edit: 12/18/2023 02:25 pm by TheKutKu »

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #108 on: 12/18/2023 05:51 pm »
https://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/aeronautique/maiaspace-l-arme-francaise-dans-la-guerre-des-petits-lanceurs_877627

"Maiaspace, France's weapon in the small launcher war"
<snip>
Question is will there be any commercial small launchers left by 2030?

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #109 on: 12/18/2023 10:02 pm »
125 M of internal funding through Arianegroup
75+135+15 M of ESA(+France) funding for Prometheus to Arianegroup since 2017 - doesn't count pre-europeanisation funding
33 M of ESA funding to Arianegroup (prime contractor) for Themis (2020)
39 M of ESA funding to Arianegroup for SALTO (Themis demonstration), 2022
17,4 M of ESA funding ENLIGHTEN (Prometheus improvements and enlargement), 2022

Taken as a whole, Prometheus + Themis + Maiaspace  had at least 440 M of Funding so far, above any other European small launcher, not the same funding origins too.
« Last Edit: 12/18/2023 10:02 pm by TheKutKu »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #110 on: 12/19/2023 07:52 pm »
125 M of internal funding through Arianegroup
75+135+15 M of ESA(+France) funding for Prometheus to Arianegroup since 2017 - doesn't count pre-europeanisation funding
33 M of ESA funding to Arianegroup (prime contractor) for Themis (2020)
39 M of ESA funding to Arianegroup for SALTO (Themis demonstration), 2022
17,4 M of ESA funding ENLIGHTEN (Prometheus improvements and enlargement), 2022

Taken as a whole, Prometheus + Themis + Maiaspace  had at least 440 M of Funding so far, above any other European small launcher, not the same funding origins too.

This info is not correct. ESA is not EU, and vice-versa.
Also realize that there are two engines being developed, the Prometheus M (LOx-LCH4) & Prometheus-H LOx-LH2.
You do point to the main issue. Hardly any commercial funding for launchers in Europe.

I've written this before. In my opinion Themis and the 3 engine version of Maia Space don't make sense.
With the >1MN Prometheus engines and at least 7 engines in the first stage the required stage diameter is closer to the 5.4m of the Ariane 6 core stage than the 3.5m currently being developed.
The ACE-42R would have been a more logical rocket motor for this stage. I think Avio is calling that High Trust engine now.
And Avio's reusable liquid rocket demonstrator (7xM10 + VUS [M10])

Let's do a back of the envelope calculation. For the Maia space micro launcher.
It's a 50m high launcher, let's assume the payload is 10m high, the second stage also 10m and the first stage 30m.
The rocket diameter is 3.5m, common bulkhead. The first stage tank is roughly 25m high; the upperstage 7.
The density of LO2-LCH4 is 0.8mT/M3.
The first stage tank 3.5x25 has a volume of ~240m3, this volume in LOX-LCH4 weighs 192mT.
Lets assume 10% stage structural mass. gives a ~212mT full mass, 19.25mT empty mass for for the first stage.
The upperstage  tank 3.5x7m has a volume of 67m3, and the propallents will weigh 53.6mT;
Again the 10% stage structural mass, gives 5.4mT structure mass and 59mT loaded mass.
The combined weight of the first and second stage are 271mT.
The rule of thumb was that payload mass is about 1% of take off weight. Thus the payload should be about 2.75mT when the payload and payload fairing mass are added to the first and second stage mass.
Giving a launcher with a GLOW of 275mT. The three Prometheus M engines provide 3x1.2MN = 3.6MN.
This equates back to a T/W of 1.31.
I'm sorry, but the performance of the Maia space launcher are very pore.
Avio Next Generation launcher with 7 High trust engines in the first stage; would require 0.55mT of thrust.
« Last Edit: 12/19/2023 09:01 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #111 on: 12/19/2023 09:23 pm »
125 M of internal funding through Arianegroup
75+135+15 M of ESA(+France) funding for Prometheus to Arianegroup since 2017 - doesn't count pre-europeanisation funding
33 M of ESA funding to Arianegroup (prime contractor) for Themis (2020)
39 M of ESA funding to Arianegroup for SALTO (Themis demonstration), 2022
17,4 M of ESA funding ENLIGHTEN (Prometheus improvements and enlargement), 2022

Taken as a whole, Prometheus + Themis + Maiaspace  had at least 440 M of Funding so far, above any other European small launcher, not the same funding origins too.

This info is not correct. ESA is not EU, and vice-versa.
You do point to the main issue. Hardly any commercial funding for launchers in Europe.

I've written this before. In my opinion Themis and the 3 engine version of Maia Space don't make sense.
With the >1MN Prometheus engines and at least 7 engines in the first stage the required stage diameter is closer to the 5.4m of the Ariane 6 core stage than the 3.5m currently being developed.
The ACE-42R would have been a more logical rocket motor for this stage. I think Avio is calling that High Trust engine now.

Indeed, sorry, the 56.4 M of  SALTO and ENLIGHTEN are EU and not ESA funding, the rest are ESA.

A ACE-42R-class engine would have made more sense for this rocket class, Maia's large engines are awkward, despite the deep throttle to 300kN the single-engine landing TWR is likely higher than F9's, and the S2 engine is vastly oversized (100tons for a stage that, from visual estimates, can't be much heavier than 50-60 tons), probably resulting in lower S2 performances.

But also this is looking at it backward, Themis was first conceived to test prometheus and learn VTVL Recovery before their application in a post-Ariane 6 launcher, Maia is just a convenient derivative, just the right size to knock the European competition out with a moderate internal investment on top of a larger public one.

Although I now wonder if Prometheus will ever be used on "Ariane Next", since the Post-A6 launcher is so far away in the future (2035?) that a Raptor/BE-4 class engine can be funded and developed in between.

I wonder if the blatant competition from Maiaspace will make Avio revise their plans for the Post-Vega/IFD-derived launcher upward, their previous renders didn't make it look very large. With the M60 they can probably go for Soyuz size with reuse.

Actually about funding, 440 millions is probably an underestimation, just looking at the 2019 ESA Ministerial prometheus and Themis funding there is a 21 millions difference with what was given in contracts 12-18 months later https://academieairespace.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/AAE_Let119_web.pdf, probably covering 2020 spending? Onera is also involved in Themis and probably funding a small part of it, and there was significant pre-europeanisation work on Both.


Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #112 on: 12/19/2023 11:26 pm »

I'm sorry, but the performance of the Maia space launcher are very pore.


Maia is a two stages 50x3.5m launcher with 300t open cycle methalox engines and 1.5t payload to SSO
Zhuque 2 (Block 1) is a two stages 49.5x3.35m launcher with 304t thrust open cycle methalox engines and 1.5t payload to SSO

Seems consistent.

Both companies have ways forwards to increase it, Maia with a simple, cheap third stage, Zhuque 2 with a new S2 engine (that isn't shared with S1)

Reminder that SSO is a particularly demanding orbit from Kourou, 1.5 tons to SSO could be consistent with 4 tons to LEO, like Zhuque-2, if the S2 dry mass is high.

What I'd like to know is the Payload in reusable mode with the Colibri kick stage, if this is also a +1 tons to SSO, then it'd be above RFA one, or any non-Avio competitor, while being reusable.
« Last Edit: 12/20/2023 01:10 am by TheKutKu »

Offline Mamut

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Offline Mamut

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #114 on: 01/10/2024 11:01 am »
https://europeanspaceflight.com/arianegroup-to-increase-maiaspace-investment-to-e125m/

Quote
ArianeGroup has committed to increasing its investment in the companys launch startup subsidiary, MaiaSpace, from approximately 40 million to 125 million.

MaiaSpace was founded in late 2021 with the aim of developing a partially reusable microlauncher. The standard two-stage configuration of the Maia vehicle will be capable of deploying 1,500 kilograms into low Earth orbit when the first stage is expended and 500 kilograms when it is being recovered. However, with the addition of the Colibri kick stage, the vehicles performance will increase to 2,500 kilograms to low Earth orbit when the first stage is expended.

Since its founding, ArianeGroup has invested approximately 40 million into the fledgling launch company. This has allowed MaiaSpace to grow to over 115 employees, construct a prototype of the Maia second stage, which has undergone cryo testing, and test-fired the engine that will power the Colibri kick stage all in just two years of operation.

As MaiaSpace pushes forward to its ambitious goal of a maiden launch attempt in 2025, ArianeGroup has committed an additional 85 million to the cause. This makes the company one of the most well-funded launch startups in Europe, surpassing Orbexs 115 million and only falling short of the impressive 310 million raised by Isar Aerospace. However, the 125 million invested in MaiaSpace doesnt tell the whole story.

To boost the pace at which it develops Maia, MaiaSpace is utilizing the work done by ArianeGroup for its ESA-contracted Themis and Prometheus programmes. Maia will utilize three Prometheus engines for its first stage and a single vacuum-optimized Prometheus engine for its second stage. As for Themis, considering recent reporting confirming that Maia will stand at 50 metres tall, its likely that the very little of the 30-metre tall Themis booster will be left behind.

To date, over 300 million in combined funding has been spent on Themis and Prometheus. This, when added to the 125 million supplied by ArianeGroup, is a more accurate but not perfect overview of the funding that has gone and that will still go towards the development of Maia.

Offline M129K

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #115 on: 01/24/2024 11:37 am »
https://twitter.com/AndrewParsonson/status/1750113999205654560

Quote
.
@MaiaSpaceOff
 is now saying that Maia will be capable of delivering more than 3,000 kilograms to low Earth orbit.

Not sure if this is to SSO with Colibri or to a less demanding reference LEO without Colibri.

Considering Maia is 50m tall and produces ~300 tons of thrust at lift-off, I would be surprised if Maia would not be capable of launching well over 3 tons to LEO.
« Last Edit: 01/24/2024 11:43 am by M129K »

Offline Emmettvonbrown

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #116 on: 01/24/2024 02:54 pm »
Yep - that's a bit more than a Delta or Atlas or Titan II : all of them 100 - 200 tons and launching an average 3 tons to orbit across their many variants.

Offline Tywin

Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #117 on: 01/25/2024 03:30 pm »
Bigger than the Vega E, maybe only the Vega Methalox will be bigger...
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Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #118 on: 01/31/2024 06:22 pm »
https://twitter.com/AndrewParsonson/status/1750113999205654560

Quote
.
@MaiaSpaceOff
 is now saying that Maia will be capable of delivering more than 3,000 kilograms to low Earth orbit.

Not sure if this is to SSO with Colibri or to a less demanding reference LEO without Colibri.

Considering Maia is 50m tall and produces ~300 tons of thrust at lift-off, I would be surprised if Maia would not be capable of launching well over 3 tons to LEO.

https://www.lecho.be/entreprises/defense-aeronautique/yohann-leroy-maiaspace-on-developpe-deux-lanceurs-pour-le-prix-d-un/10521826.html

"And we have an additional option in the design of our launcher, which is nominally a two-stage launcher. This option consists in adding a small third stage to our launcher, which notably doubles the launcher's performance - to three tons - when used in consumable configuration in a sun-synchronous orbit."

So 3 tons in expendable to SSO with Colibri

Other quotes

"We're a European project. Of course, our company is headquartered in France, but we already have partners in Belgium, Switzerland, Spain..."
"Our launcher is defined not as a micro-launcher, but as a mini-launcher."

"Our first stage is not the Themis demonstrator. We're developing it ourselves, inspired as far as possible by the demonstrator developed by ArianeGroup and its partners as part of the Themis program, financed by the European Space Agency. But there will be some differences. In particular, it will be larger than the Themis demonstrator."

The later quote is quite the opposite of what was claimed a year ago, the slow progress of Themis was a damper?

3 tons to SSO, considering the advantage of equatorial launch for equatorial orbit, that probably means 4 tons to LEO...
« Last Edit: 01/31/2024 06:36 pm by TheKutKu »

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