What will the MaiaSpace program consist of? If the minister has not given any details, we can outline it. The project will be entrusted to a subsidiary, called MaiaSpace, whose capital could, according to our information, be open to other players. The launcher itself will be based on the reusable Themis stage demonstrator, which will be equipped with the all-new low-cost, reusable Prometheus motor. The program, developed by ArianeGroup in Vernon with the support of CNES, is already well advanced: the first Prometheus engine has already been assembled. The first tests of the liquid oxygen and methane tanks have started in recent days in Vernon.The next step will be the ground tests of Prometheus, still on the Normandy site, on a version of Themis called Themis 0. A version of Themis with one engine (Themis 1) must then perform take-off and landing tests in Kiruna (Sweden ) in 2023. Tests of a more powerful version with three engines (Themis 3) are planned at Kourou in 2024.
Concerned about SpaceX, France to accelerate reusable rocket plans"It's a real break from French strategy, and clearly inspired by the USA."The new plan calls for the large, France-based rocket firm ArianeGroup to develop a new small-lift rocket called Maļa by the year 2026. This is four years ahead of a timeline previously set by the European Space Agency for the development of a significantly larger, reusable rocket.Although the technical details are sparse, Maļa will not be Europe's "Falcon 9." It will have a lift capacity of up to 1 metric ton to low Earth orbit and be powered by a reusable Prometheus rocket engine, which is fueled by methane and liquid oxygen. This engine, which remains in the preliminary stages of development, has a thrust comparable to a single Merlin 1D rocket engine, which powers SpaceX's Falcon 9 rocket. But since there are nine engines on the SpaceX rocket, it can lift more than 15 times as much as the proposed Maļa in fully reusable mode.>
Concerned about SpaceX, France to accelerate reusable rocket plans
Prendre toute notre part ą la nouvelle aventure spatiale.
Quote from: hektor on 12/07/2021 02:25 pmConcerned about SpaceX, France to accelerate reusable rocket plansThere is one point in particular that stands out to me in the article. To summarize and paraphrase: "This has no substantial hope of competing effectively against the Falcon 9, much less the starship, but it does seem to have the potential to damage efforts across europe to get other small launchers up and running."BTW, everything I've seen about it refers to it a little vaguely as a 'plan', I haven't seen anything mentioning it as an approved and fully funded plan. Anyone see anything concrete on the actual funding? No bucks, no buck rogers.
Over the last five years Germany, Italy, and the United Kingdom (which is a member of the European Space Agency but not the European Union) have started to foster the development of micro-launch companies that are building rockets capable of lifting several hundred kilograms to low-Earth orbita bit less than the Maļa rocket aspires to do.<snip>France has largely been left out of this new commercial launch industry, and Paris-based ArianeGroup probably would not mind seeing the competition stamped out. In other words, France could be worried enough about losing its launch leadership in Europe.Giving a large development contract to ArianeGroup for the Maļa rocket would be one way to kill off the competition in other countries before it gets going. Giving money to ArianeGroup now is a little bit like the United States funding United Launch Alliance to build a reusable rocket 15 years ago, which would have substantially harmed or perhaps even killed SpaceX during its formative years.
Is this really to compete against SpaceX or compete against other smallsat launchers in Europe?
They do not want to kill Ariane 6 right away.
Quote from: hektor on 12/08/2021 11:02 amThey do not want to kill Ariane 6 right away.Ariane 6 is basically already dead.
What I find most hilarious; is the fact that ArianeGroup is an European company, not a France company.
Quote from: Rik ISS-fan on 12/09/2021 03:24 pmWhat I find most hilarious; is the fact that ArianeGroup is an European company, not a France company.Arianegroup is 50% owned by Safran, which is a French company, and 50% by Airbus, which is also majority French. The headquarters and the majority of the facilities are in France.If Arianegroup was really European, then the Germans would never have created Eurockot for example...And by the way, Maļa Space is a simple subsidiary of Arianegroup.
ArianeGroup's principal sites in 2016 were Issy-les-Moulineaux, Saint-Médard-en-Jalles, Kourou (space center), Vernon, Le Haillan and Les Mureaux in France as well as Lampoldshausen, Bremen and Ottobrunn in Germany.
Subsidiaries: ArianespaceAerospace Propulsion Products B.V. (dutch company, igniters)CILASEurockot Launch ServicesNUCLETUDESPyroallianceSodern
I think libra tried to point at this; From that wiki:QuoteArianeGroup's principal sites in 2016 were Issy-les-Moulineaux, Saint-Médard-en-Jalles, Kourou (space center), Vernon, Le Haillan and Les Mureaux in France as well as Lampoldshausen, Bremen and Ottobrunn in Germany.QuoteSubsidiaries: ArianespaceAerospace Propulsion Products B.V. (dutch company, igniters)CILASEurockot Launch ServicesNUCLETUDESPyroallianceSodernThe Vince engine was for the mayor part developed in Germany
ESA as a whole screwed up by not having Prometheus ready for Ariane 6. The rest is jsut the consequences of that.
Quote from: gosnold on 01/01/2022 11:38 amESA as a whole screwed up by not having Prometheus ready for Ariane 6. The rest is jsut the consequences of that.Design choices on A6 were sound. Relying a new engine would most likely delay it by years. Just look at delays with Vulcan due to BE4 issues. Sent from my SM-T733 using Tapatalk
Quote from: TrevorMonty on 01/02/2022 07:06 pmQuote from: gosnold on 01/01/2022 11:38 amESA as a whole screwed up by not having Prometheus ready for Ariane 6. The rest is jsut the consequences of that.Design choices on A6 were sound. Relying a new engine would most likely delay it by years. Just look at delays with Vulcan due to BE4 issues. Sent from my SM-T733 using TapatalkAnd actually delaying the whole thing for years would have been the only sound decision to be made about Ariane 6 at the time.Were all very lucky if the whole Ariane 6 project doesnt end up being the death spell of the whole Ariane program.
For all that money it would have been cheaper to subsidize Ariane 5 a little more and then use the learnings from Falcon 9 for something better.
19 November 2012The Californian SpaceX chief executive Elon Musk has warned Europe it must replace its Ariane 5 rocket if it wants to keep up with his company.
Except that in 2014 (third time... ) Falcon 9 was just an expendable rocket among others. It went RLV in 2015 and beyond. And Ariane 5ME was an even worse option, against Falcon 9, if it suceeded going RLV - which it did.
Except that in 2014 (third time... ) Falcon 9 was just an expendable rocket among others. It went RLV in 2015 and beyond.
And Ariane 5ME was an even worse option, against Falcon 9, if it suceeded going RLV - which it did.
AFAIK the propper engine for Maia Space is ROMEO, not Prometheus. Maia Space is a proposal for a reusable stage with a single engine, can this work? I think a design with multiple engines is more reliable for a reusable launcher.
Sorry but I don't see the relation of the competition between Ariane 6 and Falcon 9; with Maia Space, a France Ariane group subsidiary developing a Small launcher ~1mT to SSO 700km. Let's not redo the Ariane 6 discussion here, it's OFF TOPIC.Again, this is a very unpleasant topic. AFAIK the propper engine for Maia Space is ROMEO, not Prometheus. But Myra or Aquilla might be even better.FLPP SCORE-D wasn't funded in 2012, that was the decision that lead to the Ariane 6 we know today. Maia Space is a proposal for a reusable stage with a single engine, can this work? I think a design with multiple engines is more reliable for a reusable launcher.
Quote from: Rik ISS-fan on 01/04/2022 10:04 amAFAIK the propper engine for Maia Space is ROMEO, not Prometheus. Maia Space is a proposal for a reusable stage with a single engine, can this work? I think a design with multiple engines is more reliable for a reusable launcher. ROMEO?? It was a thrust chamber demonstrator, not a full engine like Prometheus. I don't think they will study another new engine, it will take to much time.
Ther's a report than they are studying a reusable 2nd stage (human-rated too). But I can't find an official press release.
It's a whole family, though I don't quite see the point.https://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/article236443431/Raumfahrt-Ariane-bekommt-kleine-Schwester-Maia.html
Interesting, the small single stick with explicit third stage seems to for high C3 missions and/or LH2 perhaps?Going with an uncommon core in the heavy variants is a bit peculiar...
Quote from: Asteroza on 01/26/2022 01:38 amInteresting, the small single stick with explicit third stage seems to for high C3 missions and/or LH2 perhaps?Going with an uncommon core in the heavy variants is a bit peculiar...I imagine the small core can serve as a first stage for the small launcher and also replace the A6 boosters while retaining the A6 core for the time being. There's also a small storable prop kick stage called Astris in development that replaces the hydrolox upper stage, presumably for LEO payloads, similar to A5 ES.
The French government will subsidize development of ArianeGroups Maia reusable mini-launcher, and other French mini-launchers as well, to meet a competitive threat from other European small launchers, the president of the French space agency, CNES, said.The decision was made after France concluded that mini-launchers are not just proving grounds for technologies intended for larger vehicles, but commercially valuable assets in the emerging satellite market.
Good lord, what is the competitive threat from other European mini-launchers?
Quote from: RedLineTrain on 02/04/2022 09:40 pmGood lord, what is the competitive threat from other European mini-launchers?Quite a lot : Isar aerospace, RFA, PLD Space, Venture Orbital Systems, Orbex....
.@ArianeGroup's small-launcher spinoff, #MaiaSpace, plans capital raise by early 2023, defends merits of combined expendable (for the business) and reusable (as tech demo for future Ariane) vehicle. @esa @cnes.https://bit.ly/3aQjyVJ
Talk about high expectations: When French Economics Minister Bruno Le Maire announced the creation of small-launcher developer MaļaSpace, he said the companys future reusable rocket ultimately would lead to Europes having its own SpaceX, its own Falcon 9.To make that success more likely, he said France needed to abandon its scruples when it comes to subsidizing high-value sectors like space: https://www.spaceintelreport.com/in-commercial-and-military-space-france-is-pulling-europe-toward-a-more-active-government-role/
Small update from MaiaSpace: Maia will be capable of carrying 1,500 kg payloads to orbit in an expendable configuration. This is reduced by two-thirds to just 500 kg when it's being recovered. This shows the huge payload tax that's required for recovering these small vehicles.
Orbex just filed for a launch license actually, so any hope of "winning" seems fruitless. I mean, unless we're not counting the UK as Europe, which is honestly fair post-Brexit.
It seems that Maia will be a small branch of Arianespace (not sure TBH, could be Airbus space group) organized like a "startup" to get Maia off the ground faster and more efficiently that the usual cumbersome ESA and CNES and space ministries process. Macron is particularly obsessed with the startup model, those days... The gist of the idea is clearly to go "full startup mode" to move things faster.
Quote from: JEF_300 on 02/06/2022 06:22 amOrbex just filed for a launch license actually, so any hope of "winning" seems fruitless. I mean, unless we're not counting the UK as Europe, which is honestly fair post-Brexit.You do know that both Israel and Canada are members of ESA, right?
It is far more difficult, performance wise, to do a small reusable launcher - even a partially reusable one - than a bigger one ; so they are really going after something difficult. But obviously they did not want to make Ariane 6 irrelevant by making a partially reusable launcher of comparable performance.
From left to right. I think only the Heavy Launcher is worth developing. The smaller payloads launched by the Mini and Medium can be carried by the Heavy with RTLS to reduce costs. Instead of Very Heavy, orbital refilling should be used to increase performance above that of Heavy.Mini Launcher - 3 Prometheus engines on first stage, lightweight second stage.Medium Launcher - 5 Prometheus engines on first stage, 1 Prometheus engine on second stage.Heavy Launcher - 9 Prometheus engines on first stage, 1 Prometheus engine on second stage.Very Heavy Launcher - Heavy Launcher with two Mini Launcher boosters.Crewed Launcher - Heavy Launcher with SUSIE.
French PM Elizabeth Borne spoke at IAC: France will pour 9 billion euros into its space program(s) - ESA and CNES - within the next three years.
Now that RocketLabs has switched Archimedes to an 890kN ORSC methalox with a launch target of 2024, will ESA insist on gas generator Prometheus? It would look like SpaceX, Blue, ULA and RocketLabs are doing reusable staged combustion methalox. RFA is also doing SC, albeit in kerolox. Getting reusability right needs lots of extra delta-v. And if they don't pull a Merlin-like efficiency out of gas generator, they will be in quite a bit of trouble.
I think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets)
Quote from: Rik ISS-fan on 01/08/2023 11:48 amI think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets) SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).
Quote from: Steven Pietrobon on 01/09/2023 04:09 amQuote from: Rik ISS-fan on 01/08/2023 11:48 amI think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets) SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).A single core F9R equivalent would handle most of their missions. Add A6 SRBs for high performance missions and operate as ELV. Cheaper to add SRBs they already have than try to design FHR equivalent which rarely flies.
Guessing what @Steve Pietrobon is hinting at is a down-sized New Glenn equivalent. However the Europeans don't really have a suitable engine available. Unless they acquire some recent American cryogenic engines.
THEMIS! The @ArianeGroup Themis reusable launch booster demonstrator has arrived in Sweden ahead of the inauguration of the Esrange orbital launch facility on Friday. This is the first time we've got to see a Themis booster. Credit: Mia Kleregård of @SSCspace on LinkedIn
Quote from: TrevorMonty on 01/09/2023 06:56 amQuote from: Steven Pietrobon on 01/09/2023 04:09 amQuote from: Rik ISS-fan on 01/08/2023 11:48 amI think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets) SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).A single core F9R equivalent would handle most of their missions. Add A6 SRBs for high performance missions and operate as ELV. Cheaper to add SRBs they already have than try to design FHR equivalent which rarely flies.None of the SRBs they already have (P120, P120+, whatever) is exactly easy or cheaper to add to a rocket, probably not any more than making a multi-core variant of this Maia.
Will point out that there is a limit to the number of A6/Vega-C SRB that can be poured at Kourou. Estimate the current limit is about 20 SRB annually. The locals around Kourou prefer less A6/Vega-C SRB being manufactured there, AIUI.
Quote from: Zed_Noir on 01/10/2023 04:38 pmWill point out that there is a limit to the number of A6/Vega-C SRB that can be poured at Kourou. Estimate the current limit is about 20 SRB annually. The locals around Kourou prefer less A6/Vega-C SRB being manufactured there, AIUI.Back up that estimate with a source please.Afaik the limit is around 35 P120C annually.I think it's odd Themis (mini Maia 1th stage) arrived at Esrange before Callisto. I thought 1MN thrust was above the limit for Esrange LZ-3. Themis is 3x as powerful. But the limit is 15mT TNT- equivalent, so amount of propallent is limited.I'm don't know how to convert the TNT equivalent into rocket size allowed.But Themis is a ridiculously large demonstrator for it's purpose. Sirius-1 (multiple pressure feed engines, possible Prometheus gas generator derived) would have been much more logical in my oppinion.I also want the Maia heavy to be the focus for Maia space/ArianeGroup-France. A 5.4m diameter stage with 7 to 9 Prometheus (Gas Generator) or a staged combustion engines. This could be produced alongside the Ariane 6 LLPM (core). Heavy could use a modified ULPM, with more powerful Vince, or a Prometheus/M60 powered stage. The super heavy could use two Maia heavy boosters, with a expendable LLPM, or Maia Heavy with less engines as expendable core. With the same upperstages.The problem is that if Avio is allowed and able to develop the M60 (ACE-60) and Vega Next gen (3.4m diameter with 7-9 M60 engines) This is similar to the Maia medium and better suitable to be integrated with Ariane 6. Arianegoup proposes what delivers work for them. Avio does the same. And it's ESA employees or politicians who decide what proposal gets funded. Risks are way to high for private funding (in Europe). Both Themis/ Maia space Mini and Avio TSTO demo rocket, ruļne the commercial mini/micro launcher market in Europe.Why invest into a competing system to a fully state funded launcher?!
Sorry, but how many second of engine burning time have been achieved on the two demonstrator Prometheus engines?Is this enough for a demonstrator rocket. NO, Far to few to use it on a reusable stage demonstrator. Where has commen sence gone to?
It looks like we're going to have to wait another year before the first hop test of the @ArianeGroup Themis reusable booster demonstrator.
The European space launcher's reusable first stage demonstratorFirst lift off in 2024 from Spaceport Esrange, Sweden.
MaiaSpace finally has a website - https://maia-space.com/
https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1613895083539009537QuoteMaiaSpace finally has a website - https://maia-space.com/
During an interview with @B_SMART_TV MaiaSpace CEO Yohann Leroy described the challenges of implementing reusability in a small launch vehicle.
We were delighted to welcome Bruno Bonnell, General Secretary of the France 2030 government investment plan, along with a delegation from ArianeGroup, to our MaiaSpace site at Vernon, today, Wednesday 26 April. They were met by Jerome VILA, MaiaSpace Deputy CEO, and Francois Planchot, in charge of end-to-end industrialization, who led the delegation around the facility.MaiaSpace developed the Vernon site as an industrial manufacturing and assembly facility, repurposing existing industrial facilities,With incremental ramp-up of MaiaSpace product development taking place over the past 12 months, an important milestone was met recently with the delivery of a full-scale stage prototype model.The visiting delegation was able to take a closer look at the prototype as well as discussing the overall development strategy of MaiaSpace, leveraging amongst other things ArianeGroups Prometheus© engine and addressing European reusable and eco-responsible launch capability and space mobility.Following the visit, Jerome Vila commented It was a pleasure to show the latest developments at MaiaSpace, highlighting what has been achieved over the last 12 months, and to share our view of what lies ahead. In particular, we are keen to be a user of the ArianeGroups test zone, begin cryo-tests, and see some frost on our prototype!
MaiaSpace turns 1 year old! All systems go as we pass the one-year point en-route to first flight in 2025.We are proud to celebrate our first year of operation as an industrial and commercial structure. As we look back over the past 12 months, we can see clear progress has been made, against the milestones we set, how the company has grown, and take onboard lessons learnt in readiness for the next steps ahead.Notable achievements realised during year-one of our product development roadmap include scaling-up a skilled and diverse team, completing high-level vehicle design, establishing international partnerships, implementing our industrial facilities in Vernon and - last but not least - delivering a full-scale stage prototype model.In the meantime, our commercial team did quite an amazing job engaging with our future customer base: validating capabilities, matching analysis with prospects, and fine-tuning our launch service offer to market expectations, sustaining confidence for our overall business and commercial approach.Measuring our progress against these key milestones validates the agile scale-up strategy of MaiaSpace.We can continue along our incremental development roadmap with increasing confidence, assured by continual and ongoing testing that further de-risks future progress. Planned highlights for 2023 include upper-stage cryo-testing, ground testing of our Kick-Stage (Colibri) sub-systems and paving the way for launch site activities at Kourou, Guyane.None of this would have been possible without people, with MaiaSpace growing to seventy employees, of 10 different nationalities and average age 36, over the past 12 months and planned to double in size again by year-end, increasing cultural, social and gender diversity.MaiaSpace leverages European technical know-how through a unique combination of expertise, experience, and talent, from a diverse industrial, professional, and cultural background.Whilst most new hires join the engineering teams, overseeing development of the integrated launch capability, a support function has also been put in place to ensure scale-up continues at pace. More people means more office space, and we will relocate our office to larger premises at La Défense over the summer period to accommodate the expanded crew.In parallel, an industrial manufacturing and assembly site has opened at Vernon, repurposing existing industrial facilities. Our first employee, CEO Yohann Leroy, commented: Im delighted at the progress made over the past 12 months as we made the transition from incubation to business venture. Im equally looking forward to the year ahead, as we advance development and move closer towards industrial ramp-up. Cadence and tempo remain fully aligned with our overall ambition to shape in a collaborative manner the future of European reusable and eco-responsible launch and space transportation capability.
Scoop: In public filings submitted on 9 June, @ArianeGroup subsidiary MaiaSpace reported total expenses of 3.49 million for its first year of operation ending 31 December 2022.
Spending $3.7 million on a reusable launch vehicle suggests that this is a fairly non-serious effort by Europe's ArianeGroup. That buys you a few PowerPoints and some coffee for the office. It does not get you meaningfully toward reusable launch.
-Will have 100 employees by the end of July-Orbital launch still planned before late 2025, "more confident in this date than last year"-"substantially more" than 1.5t of payload to LEO, "lots of performance margins"
Quote from: TheKutKu on 07/25/2023 11:17 am-Will have 100 employees by the end of July-Orbital launch still planned before late 2025, "more confident in this date than last year"-"substantially more" than 1.5t of payload to LEO, "lots of performance margins"It sounds like they are now getting serious. They should have made this 1.5+ tonne payload reusable launcher ~10 years ago instead of Ariane 6 so they could use that experience to build a 20+ tonne payload reusable launcher now, but late is better than never.
MaiaSpace has completed the first cryogenic test of a full-scale prototype of the Maia rockets second stage.Maia is a partially reusable two-stage launch vehicle being developed by the ArianeGroup subsidiary. The vehicle is designed to be capable of delivering up to 1,500 kilograms to orbit when its first stage is expended and 500 kilograms when the stage is being recovered. The maiden flight of Maia is expected to occur in late 2025.The cryogenic testing occurred at ArianeGroups testing facilities in Vernon, France. The prototype stage was designed, built, and integrated by MaiaSpace in less than nine months. Following the success of the first test, the company is moving forward with two additional cryogenic tests that are scheduled to take place this month.A second Maia second stage prototype is also being manufactured. This stage will be utilized for a hot fire test in early 2024.
.@ArianeGroup has invested 27 million more into its microlauncher subsidiary @MaiaSpaceOff.