Author Topic: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3  (Read 642191 times)

Online yg1968

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3000 on: 08/05/2022 07:30 pm »
Quote from: Jeff Foust
Reid Wiseman, NASA chief astronaut, says at an Artemis 1 briefing today he expects the crew for Artemis 2 to be assigned later this year.

Wiseman (in response to several questions, perhaps best clarified at 1:23:52), also indicated that the 18-strong Artemis Team announced back in December 2020 are no more likely to fly on any particular Artemis mission than any of the 42 active astronauts (or 10 current astronaut candidates, once graduated).

I suppose that's not really news:
...
Not for specific missions. But NASA named the astronauts scheduled to participate in the Artemis program.
Yes, I know, the cadre. But that was done at VP Pence's request in order to give a face to Artemis. New astronauts can be added to the cadre, that was just the first batch of potential Artemis astronauts.

https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/nasa-picks-18-astronauts-for-its-first-artemis-cadre/
But Wiseman seemed to dismiss the idea that there was, for any practical purposes, such a thing as an official Artemis Team or Cadre.

I was still surprised by his answer. Although Bridenstine had made it clear that the cadre was just the first batch of Artemis astronauts, I though that it would still have some meaning. However naming all 42 active astronauts as eligible makes the cadre kind of useless now. I guess that this decision was made after the change of administrations, I don't think that Bridenstine would have made the same decision (knowing that VP Pence wouldn't have been too happy about it). 

Just to be clear, I don't think that the decision to include all 42 astronauts as potential Artemis astronauts is wrong but I was just a little surprised by it.

Online kdhilliard

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3001 on: 08/06/2022 12:05 am »
Berger's take:
Quote from: Eric Berger · @SciGuySpace · 18:45 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
The Artemis cadre of astronauts was a public relations stunt, period.
Quote from: Marcia Smith · @SpcPlcyOnline · 17:09 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
He also emphasized that as far as he's concerned any of the 42 active astronauts are eligible for assignment to Artemis missions, not just the 18 named by then-VP Pence in 2020 as the Artemis cadre: https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/nasa-picks-18-astronauts-for-its-first-artemis-cadre/
Quote from: Eric Berger · @SciGuySpace · 19:12 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
And frankly, it has had negative consequences for NASA. it divided the astronaut office into perceived "haves" and "have nots." Just not healthy for morale. Anyway, NASA should back up Wiseman's statement and say all of the corps is eligible for Artemis missions.
Quote from: Eric Berger · @SciGuySpace · 19:15 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
By the way, some of us called the stunt out for what it was at the time.

"This will probably end up making a splash because they want it to, but it doesn't mean anything. The Astronaut Office hates being used as a political prop, and this reeks of it."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/12/at-final-space-council-meeting-vp-pence-to-announce-cadre-of-moon-astronauts/

https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1555632951831891968
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1555633495069925377

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3002 on: 08/06/2022 12:05 am »
<snip>
Just to be clear, I don't think that the decision to include all 42 astronauts as potential Artemis astronauts is wrong but I was just a little surprised by it.
From my perspective. It is the status quo with the head of the Astronaut Office doling out flight assignment in the same current opaque way.

Online yg1968

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3003 on: 08/06/2022 01:37 am »
Berger's take:
Quote from: Eric Berger · @SciGuySpace · 18:45 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
The Artemis cadre of astronauts was a public relations stunt, period.
Quote from: Marcia Smith · @SpcPlcyOnline · 17:09 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
He also emphasized that as far as he's concerned any of the 42 active astronauts are eligible for assignment to Artemis missions, not just the 18 named by then-VP Pence in 2020 as the Artemis cadre: https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/nasa-picks-18-astronauts-for-its-first-artemis-cadre/
Quote from: Eric Berger · @SciGuySpace · 19:12 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
And frankly, it has had negative consequences for NASA. it divided the astronaut office into perceived "haves" and "have nots." Just not healthy for morale. Anyway, NASA should back up Wiseman's statement and say all of the corps is eligible for Artemis missions.
Quote from: Eric Berger · @SciGuySpace · 19:15 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
By the way, some of us called the stunt out for what it was at the time.

"This will probably end up making a splash because they want it to, but it doesn't mean anything. The Astronaut Office hates being used as a political prop, and this reeks of it."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/12/at-final-space-council-meeting-vp-pence-to-announce-cadre-of-moon-astronauts/

https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1555632951831891968
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1555633495069925377

I disagree with him on this. The cadre was to give the Artemis program a face, so that it wouldn't be cancelled. Bridenstine made it clear that it was just the first batch of Artemis astronauts. So I think that it was a good idea at the time.
« Last Edit: 08/06/2022 02:55 am by yg1968 »

Offline Khadgars

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3004 on: 08/06/2022 01:52 am »
Berger's take:
Quote from: Eric Berger · @SciGuySpace · 18:45 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
The Artemis cadre of astronauts was a public relations stunt, period.
Quote from: Marcia Smith · @SpcPlcyOnline · 17:09 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
He also emphasized that as far as he's concerned any of the 42 active astronauts are eligible for assignment to Artemis missions, not just the 18 named by then-VP Pence in 2020 as the Artemis cadre: https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/nasa-picks-18-astronauts-for-its-first-artemis-cadre/
Quote from: Eric Berger · @SciGuySpace · 19:12 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
And frankly, it has had negative consequences for NASA. it divided the astronaut office into perceived "haves" and "have nots." Just not healthy for morale. Anyway, NASA should back up Wiseman's statement and say all of the corps is eligible for Artemis missions.
Quote from: Eric Berger · @SciGuySpace · 19:15 UTC· Aug 5, 2022
By the way, some of us called the stunt out for what it was at the time.

"This will probably end up making a splash because they want it to, but it doesn't mean anything. The Astronaut Office hates being used as a political prop, and this reeks of it."
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/12/at-final-space-council-meeting-vp-pence-to-announce-cadre-of-moon-astronauts/

https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1555632951831891968
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1555633495069925377

I disagree with him on this. The cadre was to give Artemis a face, so that it wouldn't be cancelled. Bridenstine made it clear that it was just the first batch of astronauts. So I think that it was a good idea at the time.

To add to this, what evidence do we have that morale is impacted?  I'd be highly surprised the professionals within the astronauts core would be so easily "hurt". 
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing - Thomas Jefferson

Online yg1968

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3005 on: 08/06/2022 04:05 am »
NASA Previews Artemis I Mission to the Moon (Official NASA Broadcast):



For those that haven't watched this press conference, I encourage you to watch it. The presentations were very good. They go into the details of the Artemis I mission.

NASA said that the slides would be posted on their website but I haven't found them yet.

Offline lykos

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3006 on: 08/07/2022 02:28 pm »

To add to this, what evidence do we have that morale is impacted?  I'd be highly surprised the professionals within the astronauts core would be so easily "hurt".

I strongly recommend you to read a book written of an Astronaut of the Apollo-moonlanding time period.
(e.g. "Last man on the moon"  by Eugene Cernan or others")
It hurts very much not to be allowed to fly to the moon.

Offline Khadgars

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3007 on: 08/07/2022 03:10 pm »

To add to this, what evidence do we have that morale is impacted?  I'd be highly surprised the professionals within the astronauts core would be so easily "hurt".

I strongly recommend you to read a book written of an Astronaut of the Apollo-moonlanding time period.
(e.g. "Last man on the moon"  by Eugene Cernan or others")
It hurts very much not to be allowed to fly to the moon.

Totally different.  The Astronaut core today can still fly to the ISS if they are not selected for Artemis missions.  Again, what evidence do we have morale was impacted?  I've seen none.
Evil triumphs when good men do nothing - Thomas Jefferson

Offline butters

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3008 on: 08/08/2022 02:07 am »
Does Artemis 3 require the Lunar Communications System on PPE+HALO? What is the baseline communications architecture? Is Orion usable as a relay? Is LRO involved?

Offline deadman1204

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3009 on: 08/08/2022 01:40 pm »

To add to this, what evidence do we have that morale is impacted?  I'd be highly surprised the professionals within the astronauts core would be so easily "hurt".

I strongly recommend you to read a book written of an Astronaut of the Apollo-moonlanding time period.
(e.g. "Last man on the moon"  by Eugene Cernan or others")
It hurts very much not to be allowed to fly to the moon.

Totally different.  The Astronaut core today can still fly to the ISS if they are not selected for Artemis missions.  Again, what evidence do we have morale was impacted?  I've seen none.
Being told you are not allowed to fly on some missions simply because of when you started - its pretty basic.

Online yg1968

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3010 on: 08/08/2022 03:13 pm »

To add to this, what evidence do we have that morale is impacted?  I'd be highly surprised the professionals within the astronauts core would be so easily "hurt".

I strongly recommend you to read a book written of an Astronaut of the Apollo-moonlanding time period.
(e.g. "Last man on the moon"  by Eugene Cernan or others")
It hurts very much not to be allowed to fly to the moon.

Totally different.  The Astronaut core today can still fly to the ISS if they are not selected for Artemis missions.  Again, what evidence do we have morale was impacted?  I've seen none.
Being told you are not allowed to fly on some missions simply because of when you started - its pretty basic.

They weren't told that they weren't allowed to fly to the Moon, some were told that they were not part of the first batch of Artemis astronauts, that's all. Besides, Crew 2 will be selected this year and I imagine that crew 3 will be selected next year. There has to be a down selection, one way or another at some point.

Offline Timber Micka

Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3011 on: 08/08/2022 06:41 pm »
Does Artemis 3 require the Lunar Communications System on PPE+HALO? What is the baseline communications architecture? Is Orion usable as a relay? Is LRO involved?

From what we know Artemis III will not require the Gateway; If it is not yet on orbit around the Moon, Orion will dock directly to Starship for crew transfer.

Online yg1968

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3012 on: 08/09/2022 03:17 pm »
Biden has just signed the CHIPS and Science bill which includes the 2022 NASA Authorization Act; so it is now law.

This is the first NASA Authorization Act that authorizes the Artemis missions and the Moon to Mars program. The last bill, the 2017 NASA Transition Authorization Act preceded Artemis and endorsed the Journey to Mars program (however, there was a provision in the bill that allowed interim destinations). Although the 2022 NASA Authorization Act isn't perfect, it is still good to have Artemis included in an Authorization bill as a matter of policy.

Online yg1968

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3013 on: 08/10/2022 06:06 pm »
I really like this recommendation by Wayne Hale and the HEO NAC Committee:

https://twitter.com/genejm29/status/1557423019974430726

https://twitter.com/Capoglou/status/1557422853397544961
« Last Edit: 08/10/2022 11:41 pm by yg1968 »

Online yg1968

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3014 on: 08/10/2022 06:20 pm »
I also like this statement by Hale. It has been mentioned in the Artemis plan before but it is not mentioned often enough.

https://twitter.com/genejm29/status/1557413121106612225

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3015 on: 08/10/2022 06:23 pm »
I really like this recommendation by Wayne Hale and the HEO NAC Committee:

The part I emboldened below is particularly classic!

Quote from: NAC
Short Title of Recommendation: Recommendation on Transitioning Lunar Activities
Recommendation to ESDMD AA: NASA should begin to study how to transition sustaining Lunar activities to other entities following successful Artemis missions establishing long duration Lunar capabilities
Major Reasons for the Recommendation:
NASA has started to study how to build on the sustained Lunar activities which will be the result of  the Artemis missions and use the knowledge and systems to advance toward human Mars missions.
This plan, although at a high level, is sound. However, the difficulty for NASA will be in managing resources to transition from Lunar to Martian activities. Currently there is no plan that the NAC is aware of that allows NASA to disengage from Lunar activities while not causing them to cease. The transition of limited resources toward a Mars campaign will probably tax NASA in the decades following the establishment of sustained Lunar operations. It is important that sustained Lunar operations continue for commercial and scientific reasons, but NASA may not be able to lead them for the long term. NASA must begin to study now on how to transition those activities to other organizations, be they governmental or commercial.

Consequences of No Action on the Recommendation:
Without proper planning, when NASA turns its attention from the sustained Lunar activities toward a humans to Mars campaign, either the Lunar activities will cease which is undesirable, or the Mars campaign will lack resources to be effective.
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Offline deadman1204

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3016 on: 08/10/2022 06:43 pm »
nasa working hard to make it not actually seem like flags and footprints....

Online VSECOTSPE

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3017 on: 08/10/2022 08:42 pm »

Other folks noticing the slow/limited Artemis mission rate...

http://nasawatch.com/archives/2022/08/artemis-lunar-l.html

Online yg1968

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3018 on: 08/10/2022 11:25 pm »
More recommendations by the HEO NAC Committee:

https://twitter.com/Capoglou/status/1557423339894935557

Online Hog

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Re: NASA's Artemis Program Updates and Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #3019 on: 08/11/2022 12:24 am »
nasa working hard to make it not actually seem like flags and footprints....
Reads more like: so it doesn't end up just being a flags/footprints program.
« Last Edit: 08/11/2022 12:25 am by Hog »
Paul

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