Quote from: envy887 on 03/06/2019 09:28 pmBut when I plug in the payload, ISP and structural fractions from this paper, I get much, much smaller GLOM and dry mass values, in the 800 tonne and 45 tonne range.If you're referring to Figure 2, those are the results of the 2017 paper with overestimated second stage dry mass. As they admit themselves in that paper and therefore also present results with a more detailed mass model (though only for the 7km/s version, not for 7.6km/s. For the 7km/s version the reduction in 2nd stage GLOW is substantial, from ~270t to 157t). It's a mystery to me why they point to those faulty results (according to them) to exclude 7.6km/s in the 2018 paper.
But when I plug in the payload, ISP and structural fractions from this paper, I get much, much smaller GLOM and dry mass values, in the 800 tonne and 45 tonne range.
https://iafastro.directory/iac/paper/id/44345/summary/https://iafastro.directory/iac/paper/id/44345/abstract-pdf/IAC-18,C4,1,2,x44345.brief.pdf?2018-07-04.11:29:37QuotePaper ID: 44345oral69th International Astronautical Congress 2018IAF SPACE PROPULSION SYMPOSIUM (C4)Propulsion System (1) (1)Author: Ms. Pamela SIMONTACCHIArianeGroup SAS, France, [email protected]Mr. Roland BlasiArianeGroup, Germany, [email protected]PROMETHEUS: PRECURSOR OF NEW LOW-COST ROCKET ENGINE FAMILY
Paper ID: 44345oral69th International Astronautical Congress 2018IAF SPACE PROPULSION SYMPOSIUM (C4)Propulsion System (1) (1)Author: Ms. Pamela SIMONTACCHIArianeGroup SAS, France, [email protected]Mr. Roland BlasiArianeGroup, Germany, [email protected]PROMETHEUS: PRECURSOR OF NEW LOW-COST ROCKET ENGINE FAMILY
All papers presented at the IAF’s International Astronautical Congresses are available to buy for non-IAF members for only €7 each.http://www.iafastro.org/publications/iac-papers/
For the 7km/s version the reduction in 2nd stage GLOW is substantial, from ~270t to 157t). It's a mystery to me why they point to those faulty results (according to them) to exclude 7.6km/s in the 2018 paper.
ESA to seek funding for more Prometheus reusable engines at ministerialby Caleb Henry — October 21, 2019WASHINGTON — The European Space Agency will ask its 22 member states next month to fund an additional two to eight Prometheus reusable engines so that the agency can further the engine’s development.ESA, with prime contractor ArianeGroup, has two Prometheus engines being built today, leveraging funds granted at its 2016 ministerial, plus earlier work supported by the French Space Agency CNES.Jérôme Breteau, ESA’s head of future space transportation, said Oct. 21 at the 70th International Astronautical Congress here that those two engines are on track for test firings in late 2020 at the German Space Agency DLR’s Lampoldshausen facility. ESA will continue engine tests into 2021, but what follows “is the subject of our proposal to the Space19+ ministerial,” he said.ESA’s tri-annual ministerial conferences are where the agency and its members allocate funds for future space programs. ESA is seeking 12.5 billion euros ($13.9 billion) at its next ministerial, dubbed Space19+, Nov. 27 -28 in Seville, Spain.Breteau said ESA needs to know the outcome of the ministerial before it can lay out the next steps for Prometheus. The agency has “very ambitious” plans for the liquid-oxygen and methane engine, he said.ESA’s goal with Prometheus is to manufacture the engine for 1 million euros ($1.1 million) each — a tenth the price of the Vulcain engine used on the first stage of Europe’s Ariane 5 rocket. Prometheus is also designed to be reusable.Breteau said Lampoldshausen’s hydrogen engine test bench, used for Ariane 6’s Vulcain 2.1 engine, will need upgrades to support the methane needed for Prometheus.Breteau said Prometheus is so far in line with its cost target and its performance target of 1,000 kilonewtons in thrust. He said it is difficult to have a set mass target for Prometheus because that requires knowing what vehicle the engine will support.Work on Prometheus has been done with the expectation that it would be used on a launch vehicle in the 2030s, but ArianeGroup has mused using it on the Ariane 6 rocket, which debuts in 2020.Breteau wouldn’t go so far as to name a launcher that might use Prometheus.“System engineering on the target launcher configuration is ongoing,” he said. ESA has what Breteau described as “more than a notional idea” of how to cluster Prometheus engines together on a launcher, a detail he said gives an “idea of the maturity of the system activities.”
2. Prometheus engine spinoffsThe first Prometheus reusable engine is on track for completion by the end of 2020, with ground testing to follow. ArianeGroup is preparing the engine for use in the 2030s, but Bonguet said the company can start applying Prometheus technology to Ariane 6’s expendable Vulcain 2.1 first-stage engines and Vinci second-stage engines. Prometheus, in addition to being reusable, leverages extensive 3D printing with the goal of costing 1 million euros to manufacture (a tenth the cost of Ariane 5’s Vulcain engine). Bonguet said spinoff technologies like electrical valves and 3D-printed parts from Prometheus could reduce the cost of Ariane 6’s expendable engines.
CNES Callisto Animation by Blackbear Studios, These are the guys who make all the Animations for ArianeGroup, we've seen parts of this animation before in the ArianeWorks Announcement, here is the full animation they made for CNES
I presume this will eventually lead into Ariane 7.
Quote from: Star One on 12/01/2019 07:04 pmI presume this will eventually lead into Ariane 7.One can hope. SHOULD be 6 but that's a lost argument at this point.
Correct me if i am wrong, but my impression is that ArianeSpace has not put any of its own money into any of those reusability studies / prototyping / demonstrator programs, only acted as a contractor under public money funding.If this trend continues, and i do not see why it would not, they will not move a finger unless ESA orders a reuseable Ariane architecture and pays for it. And in the latest ESA minister conference, there was no indication whatsoever for an accelerated push for a reuseable laucher architecture.At least we may see something get done with Space Rider.
Quote from: Wargrim on 12/02/2019 01:36 pmCorrect me if i am wrong, but my impression is that ArianeSpace has not put any of its own money into any of those reusability studies / prototyping / demonstrator programs, only acted as a contractor under public money funding.If this trend continues, and i do not see why it would not, they will not move a finger unless ESA orders a reuseable Ariane architecture and pays for it. And in the latest ESA minister conference, there was no indication whatsoever for an accelerated push for a reuseable laucher architecture.At least we may see something get done with Space Rider.My bet is that they will create the proposed ArianeNext a new Medium class reusable Launch Vehicle for LEO, with 7 Prometheus Engines, It probably won't be called an Ariane, Most likely they will name it something else maybe Europa 2 Or Something as Ariane 6 will get ICARUS and remain in service longer than necessary so they can develop a larger heavy Launcher system (New Glenn Size)
Quote from: Jakdowski on 12/02/2019 03:06 pmQuote from: Wargrim on 12/02/2019 01:36 pmCorrect me if i am wrong, but my impression is that ArianeSpace has not put any of its own money into any of those reusability studies / prototyping / demonstrator programs, only acted as a contractor under public money funding.If this trend continues, and i do not see why it would not, they will not move a finger unless ESA orders a reuseable Ariane architecture and pays for it. And in the latest ESA minister conference, there was no indication whatsoever for an accelerated push for a reuseable laucher architecture.At least we may see something get done with Space Rider.My bet is that they will create the proposed ArianeNext a new Medium class reusable Launch Vehicle for LEO, with 7 Prometheus Engines, It probably won't be called an Ariane, Most likely they will name it something else maybe Europa 2 Or Something as Ariane 6 will get ICARUS and remain in service longer than necessary so they can develop a larger heavy Launcher system (New Glenn Size)This is first not a thread for ArianeNEXT (Ariane 7 and so on). Second the name will not change as long as CNES and Ariane Group are in charge as it is their name, launcher and company even though they have ESA member states support.
ESA moves ahead on low-cost reusable rocket engineESA’s Prometheus is the precursor of ultra-low-cost rocket propulsion that is flexible enough to fit a fleet of new launch vehicles for any mission and will be potentially reusable.At the Space19+ Council meeting in Seville, Spain last November, ESA received full funding to bring the current Prometheus engine design to a technical maturity suitable for industry. Developed by ArianeGroup, Prometheus is now seen as key in the effort to prepare competitive future European access to space.By applying a design-to-cost approach to manufacturing Prometheus, ESA aims to lower the cost of production by a factor of ten of the current main stage Ariane 5 Vulcain 2 engine.Features such as variable thrust, multiple ignitions, suitability for main and upper stage application, and minimised ground operations before and after flight also make Prometheus a highly flexible engine.This Prometheus precursor runs on liquid oxygen–methane which brings high efficiency, allows standardisation and operational simplicity. Methane propellant is also widely available and easy to handle.In the short term it is likely that operational engines will benefit from the application of Prometheus technologies.Upcoming tests overseen by ArianeGroup at the DLR German Aerospace Center’s Lampoldshausen testing facility in Germany will validate the hardware components for the first Prometheus engine test model (M1).In preparation, the P5 test bench will gain a 250 cubic metre capacity propellant tank for methane. This will allow engineers to efficiently switch test configurations between Prometheus and Ariane 6’s Vulcain 2.1 main stage engine, also in development.Main subsystems are being manufactured. The first elements built last year benefited from new methods such as additive layer manufacturing (ALM) which speeds up production, achieves fewer parts and greatly reduces costs.ALM builds a structure layer by layer, which is much quicker and easier than the traditional process of cutting away bulk material. Complex, optimised parts, impossible to manufacture via classical methods, can be created using less material and energy, and in far fewer manufacturing steps.Components manufactured and now ready to test include the turbo pump’s turbine, pump inlet and gas generator valves. March will see the delivery of the chamber valves and on-board rocket engine computer for engine management and monitoring – the part that makes this a ‘smart’ engine and potentially reusable.The first combustion chamber model is expected at the end of June while the combustion chamber for M1 will be delivered in December 2020.Engineers will assemble the M1 full-scale demonstrator at the end of this year for testing on the ground in 2021.Further Prometheus engines will be built for testing into the future.Also within ESA’s Future Launchers Preparatory Programme, Arianeworks is currently preparing an in-flight reusable vehicle demonstration called Themis, which will incorporate the Prometheus precursor engine.Prometheus represents a breakthrough in terms of cost and manufacturing and its robust design is the baseline for future evolutions of Ariane to 2030.
