Author Topic: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)  (Read 28420 times)

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #60 on: 08/06/2022 05:30 am »
From the tweet.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #61 on: 09/17/2022 07:03 am »
https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1571031216949788674

Quote
Small update from MaiaSpace: Maia will be capable of carrying 1,500 kg payloads to orbit in an expendable configuration. This is reduced by two-thirds to just 500 kg when it's being recovered. This shows the huge payload tax that's required for recovering these small vehicles.

Offline libra

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #62 on: 09/18/2022 11:39 am »
French PM Elizabeth Borne spoke at IAC: France will pour 9 billion euros into its space program(s) - ESA and CNES - within the next three years.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #63 on: 09/18/2022 12:44 pm »
Orbex just filed for a launch license actually, so any hope of "winning" seems fruitless. I mean, unless we're not counting the UK as Europe, which is honestly fair post-Brexit.
You do know that both Israel and Canada are members of ESA, right?
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #64 on: 09/18/2022 12:47 pm »
It seems that Maia will be a small branch of Arianespace (not sure TBH, could be Airbus space group) organized like a "startup" to get Maia off the ground faster and more efficiently that the usual cumbersome ESA and CNES and space ministries process.

Macron is particularly obsessed with the startup model, those days...

The gist of the idea is clearly to go "full startup mode" to move things faster.
So French.  Do what America did a decade ago.

If they were to consider a wider definition of "European" (as ESA does).
<sigh>   :( :(
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #65 on: 09/18/2022 08:09 pm »
Orbex just filed for a launch license actually, so any hope of "winning" seems fruitless. I mean, unless we're not counting the UK as Europe, which is honestly fair post-Brexit.
You do know that both Israel and Canada are members of ESA, right?
Yes, but you'll note I was responding to a post about "the competitive threat from other European mini-launchers". Regardless of their status in the ESA, I wouldn't call a Canadian or Israeli launcher a "European mini-launchers", and seriously doubt they'd be competitive within the EU (without a major advantage like reusability).
« Last Edit: 09/18/2022 08:15 pm by JEF_300 »
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

Offline hektor

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #66 on: 09/18/2022 09:46 pm »
Canada is a Cooperating State within ESA, not a member state. Israel has a cooperation agreement with ESA but is not a member state of ESA.
« Last Edit: 09/18/2022 09:48 pm by hektor »

Offline hektor

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #67 on: 09/18/2022 09:53 pm »
It is far more difficult, performance wise, to do a small reusable launcher - even a partially reusable one - than a bigger one ; so they are really going after something difficult. But obviously they did not want to make Ariane 6 irrelevant by making a partially reusable launcher of comparable performance.
« Last Edit: 09/18/2022 09:54 pm by hektor »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #68 on: 09/19/2022 05:04 pm »
It is far more difficult, performance wise, to do a small reusable launcher - even a partially reusable one - than a bigger one ; so they are really going after something difficult. But obviously they did not want to make Ariane 6 irrelevant by making a partially reusable launcher of comparable performance.
I don’t necessarily agree. Small may be difficult for financial reasons, but it’s not significantly harder technically and in fact opens up the trade space to things like helicopter recovery ala Electron.
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Offline Try_NBS

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #69 on: 09/21/2022 05:56 am »
Don't forget Maia is just the beginning of ArianeGroup reusable launchers. As we can see on this video.



Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #70 on: 09/22/2022 06:19 am »
From left to right. I think only the Heavy Launcher is worth developing. The smaller payloads launched by the Mini and Medium can be carried by the Heavy with RTLS to reduce costs. Instead of Very Heavy, orbital refilling should be used to increase performance above that of Heavy.

Mini Launcher - 3 Prometheus engines on first stage, lightweight second stage.

Medium Launcher - 5 Prometheus engines on first stage, 1 Prometheus engine on second stage.

Heavy Launcher - 9 Prometheus engines on first stage, 1 Prometheus engine on second stage.

Very Heavy Launcher - Heavy Launcher with two Mini Launcher boosters.

Crewed Launcher - Heavy Launcher with SUSIE.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #71 on: 09/22/2022 09:19 am »
From left to right. I think only the Heavy Launcher is worth developing. The smaller payloads launched by the Mini and Medium can be carried by the Heavy with RTLS to reduce costs. Instead of Very Heavy, orbital refilling should be used to increase performance above that of Heavy.

Mini Launcher - 3 Prometheus engines on first stage, lightweight second stage.

Medium Launcher - 5 Prometheus engines on first stage, 1 Prometheus engine on second stage.

Heavy Launcher - 9 Prometheus engines on first stage, 1 Prometheus engine on second stage.

Very Heavy Launcher - Heavy Launcher with two Mini Launcher boosters.

Crewed Launcher - Heavy Launcher with SUSIE.
I'd leave small LV market to european startups and concentrate on f9 equivalent plus heavy version ie FH equivalent and use that to supply fuel depot. Side boosters RTLS and core downrange on a barge.

Offline Try_NBS

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #72 on: 09/22/2022 09:23 am »
I think we must to know the capacities of the different launchers before saying anyone has no use.

Offline woods170

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #73 on: 09/22/2022 12:03 pm »
French PM Elizabeth Borne spoke at IAC: France will pour 9 billion euros into its space program(s) - ESA and CNES - within the next three years.

This is a 25% increase over current budgets. Quite substantial.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #74 on: 09/22/2022 01:58 pm »
Now that RocketLabs has switched Archimedes to an 890kN ORSC methalox with a launch target of 2024, will ESA insist on gas generator Prometheus? It would look like SpaceX, Blue, ULA and RocketLabs are doing reusable staged combustion methalox. RFA is also doing SC, albeit in kerolox. Getting reusability right needs lots of extra delta-v. And if they don't pull a Merlin-like efficiency out of gas generator, they will be in quite a bit of trouble.

Offline Try_NBS

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #75 on: 09/22/2022 06:16 pm »
We will see soon if all is ok with Prometheus. Yes, it's the first european methalox engine. But the conception of the motor is slow, and we know the expertise of the european industrials. They will do all what they can do to build a reliable engine.

Offline Alpha_Centauri

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #76 on: 09/23/2022 11:45 am »
Now that RocketLabs has switched Archimedes to an 890kN ORSC methalox with a launch target of 2024, will ESA insist on gas generator Prometheus? It would look like SpaceX, Blue, ULA and RocketLabs are doing reusable staged combustion methalox. RFA is also doing SC, albeit in kerolox. Getting reusability right needs lots of extra delta-v. And if they don't pull a Merlin-like efficiency out of gas generator, they will be in quite a bit of trouble.

The emphasis of the Prometheus project is reducing manufacturing cost, and hence per unit price.

In Europe there is scepticism that the portion of the international launch market that is available is sufficient for engine reuse to be financially viable. So they are hedging their bets by producing an engine that is cheap enough to use expendibly if required.

Making Prometheus staged combustion would significantly raise the per unit cost.
« Last Edit: 09/24/2022 07:16 am by Alpha_Centauri »

Offline hektor

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #77 on: 01/08/2023 09:13 am »
Official web site

maia-space.com

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #78 on: 01/08/2023 11:48 am »
I'll share my opinion.
The Themis demonstrator and the mini version of Maia derived from it don't make sense to me.
It directly competes with RFA One, ISAR Spectrum (and I think Avio demo rocket).
With only 3 (1MN Prometheus) engines on the first stage, very deep throttling is required for propulsive landing. The mini Maia launcher has 3MN thrust for a payload equivalent to these mini launchers, all with only ~1MN thrust. So the competitors are likely more efficient, with lower G-load.

The Heavy and super heavy versions are good designs. I'm unsure about the medium version.
Arianegroup (France) tried to make launcher designs for the whole market with only the Prometheus engine.
But European competitors are developing other engines that can result in better launcher designs.
If Italy funds the development by Avio of a ~0.5MN engine. Most likely the Vega Next Gen, a reusable stage with 7 - 9 of these engines are superior to the Maia Medium with 5 1MN Prometheus engines.
I think this stage could replace the P120C(+) if launch demand remains high.
And than there is the disruptor Pangea Aerospace that is developing Aerospike engines. In theory aerospike engines should be superior for reusable boosters and first stages.

I think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets)
Micro: <0.5mT to SSO expendable/ ~2mT ~200km suborbital, reusable.
Mini: (Vega successor) 1-1.5mT to SSO .
Medium (Soyuz replacement) 3-5mT to SSO.
Heavy: >15mT LEO / ~5mT to GTO
Super Heavy: >20mT to LEO; >10mT GTO; >6mT Escape.
For extremely heavy, Europe can let a partner contribute launch service.

Possibly with two heavy Maia boosters, a 3-5 engine core and a enlarged Susie with multiple M10 engines, a fully reusable super heavy launcher can be developed. 
In my opinion Maia space should focus on the (super) Heavy development.
But because of the size, stage reuse technology should have been mastered before this development can start.
I think France could use Sirius 1 from Sirius Space Services to master space reuse technology. (micro launcher)
I expect with lower funding the results will be achieved sooner. But this are just the ideas of a space enthousiast.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #79 on: 01/09/2023 04:09 am »
I think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets)

SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).
« Last Edit: 01/09/2023 04:19 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

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