Author Topic: Orion - Venus Flyby?  (Read 26106 times)

Offline Bubbinski

Orion - Venus Flyby?
« on: 12/15/2014 01:56 am »
As for near future missions for Orion....I had a thought for a mission that wouldn't involve any new costly deep space habitats, landers, etc. and that uses only existing equipment/equipment already funded and in development. 

What about an Orion/SLS launch to Venus with a crew of two (maybe 3?), as well as a Bigelow BEAM module stuffed with supplies and extra oxygen/life support systems, food, water, treadmill, etc.  (Use the transposition method to dock BEAM with Orion after trans-Venus injection).  Launch the mission during a good conjunction of Venus with Earth, and use the mission to test Orion's systems as well as astronauts' medical and psychological responses during a 6-12 month trip (or 18 month?) through deep space.  Bonus points: become the first people to fly to and past another planet. 

Possible problems: besides the ever present issues of budget, politics, and desire, Venus is closer to the Sun than the Earth and the higher solar radiation would need to be taken into account.  Also I don't imagine it would be a good mission for the first crewed flight of Orion only because it would be a long flight, a shorter flight to the Moon would be a better "shakedown" cruise for the first crewed flight.  Also would a BEAM module be enough storage capacity for all the crew would need in addition to the Orion's interior space?

How feasible would this type of mission be as an early EM mission while asteroid and Mars missions are fleshed out?

Edited to add: also not sure of what the flight times would be from Earth to Venus and back again.  I know Venus is closer to Earth than Mars is.
« Last Edit: 12/15/2014 02:04 am by Bubbinski »
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #1 on: 12/15/2014 02:45 am »
However -- and someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- doesn't it take more energy to get onto a trajectory that takes you closer to the sun than it does to go farther out from the sun?  ISTR this was one of those counter-intuitive things I've run across in re interplanetary trajectories.
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Offline LM13

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #2 on: 12/15/2014 03:06 am »
However -- and someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- doesn't it take more energy to get onto a trajectory that takes you closer to the sun than it does to go farther out from the sun?  ISTR this was one of those counter-intuitive things I've run across in re interplanetary trajectories.

When going somewhere like Mercury, sure.  But Venus is close enough that the delta-v for a Venus flyby is the smallest of any planetary destination. 

According to the Trajectory Browser http://tinyurl.com/odxjapb

There are quite a few opportunities for year-long flyby missions whose total delta-v comes in at under 4 km/s.  The lowest is 3.52 km/s in 2018.  The next lowest, 2026, is 3.59 km/s, and both come it at only 1.1 years. 

EDIT: The Block I (70 tonne-to-LEO) SLS can put, by my math, 30.323 metric tons through TVI.  Since mission delta-v after that point is only 60 m/s, we can probably de-tank Orion to only 300 m/s of delta-v with plenty of margin, so we have more payload.  But even if Orion needs to be fully-tanked for some or other abort scenario, that still leaves 9.073 metric tons for a hab module.  The MPLMs mass 4 metric tons each, leaving five tonnes for supplies and scientific payload (and also extra radiation shielding).  Alternatively, one can use a Cygnus-derived Mission Module.

How much would 4 people need for 400 days? 
« Last Edit: 12/15/2014 11:13 am by Chris Bergin »

Offline jtrame

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #3 on: 12/15/2014 03:40 pm »
Should you do the transposition and dock, make sure you have a good hard dock, check out the hab, and after making sure all is well, then do the departure burn?  Then dispose of the EDS.


Offline clongton

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #4 on: 12/15/2014 04:01 pm »
Should you do the transposition and dock, make sure you have a good hard dock, check out the hab, and after making sure all is well, then do the departure burn?  Then dispose of the EDS.

BEAM has insufficient internal structure to support itself during the burn.
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Offline IRobot

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #5 on: 12/15/2014 06:07 pm »
Should you do the transposition and dock, make sure you have a good hard dock, check out the hab, and after making sure all is well, then do the departure burn?  Then dispose of the EDS.

BEAM has insufficient internal structure to support itself during the burn.
Not hard to modify it in order to have a mountable/dismountable column.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #6 on: 12/15/2014 06:24 pm »
A crewed Venus flyby and return would take a year, more or less, to complete.  Getting to Venus would only take 3-4 months, but the return journey would take longer.  NASA studied such a mission using Saturn/Apollo hardware.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2011/11/29/forget-asteroidssend-a-manned-flyby-mission-to-venus/

The report called for about 48.433 tonnes to be injected into solar orbit by a Saturn V, including an S-IVB based habitat/laboratory.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/15/2014 06:52 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline K-P

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #7 on: 12/15/2014 06:24 pm »
Edited to add: also not sure of what the flight times would be from Earth to Venus and back again.  I know Venus is closer to Earth than Mars is.

Just take the "Inspiration Mars" 2021 trajectory and go with it.

Wham bam thank you mam and there you have the best and the coolest mission of the first half of the 21st century down to the history books. No doubt.

After that, moon landings and Phobos/Deimos "dockings" yes, but just do that 2021 mission first. Please.
That's the manned Grand Tour for our lifetime. And with relatively manageable technical challenges and delta-vees.

Offline jtrame

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #8 on: 12/15/2014 06:28 pm »
BEAM is a small demonstrator and sure it could hold supplies, but you need room for the crew and it could be too small.  They have a lot of places to go on ISS, but this sounds too confining for a long period of time.  Better to design & build something practical.  Base it at least on a stretched Cygnus.  Also you can't leave Earth orbit hoping the hab will deploy correctly & that the docking will be nominal. 

Offline MattMason

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #9 on: 12/15/2014 06:33 pm »
As for near future missions for Orion....I had a thought for a mission that wouldn't involve any new costly deep space habitats, landers, etc. and that uses only existing equipment/equipment already funded and in development. 

What about an Orion/SLS launch to Venus with a crew of two (maybe 3?), as well as a Bigelow BEAM module stuffed with supplies and extra oxygen/life support systems, food, water, treadmill, etc.  (Use the transposition method to dock BEAM with Orion after trans-Venus injection).  Launch the mission during a good conjunction of Venus with Earth, and use the mission to test Orion's systems as well as astronauts' medical and psychological responses during a 6-12 month trip (or 18 month?) through deep space.  Bonus points: become the first people to fly to and past another planet. 

Possible problems: besides the ever present issues of budget, politics, and desire, Venus is closer to the Sun than the Earth and the higher solar radiation would need to be taken into account.  Also I don't imagine it would be a good mission for the first crewed flight of Orion only because it would be a long flight, a shorter flight to the Moon would be a better "shakedown" cruise for the first crewed flight.  Also would a BEAM module be enough storage capacity for all the crew would need in addition to the Orion's interior space?

How feasible would this type of mission be as an early EM mission while asteroid and Mars missions are fleshed out?

Edited to add: also not sure of what the flight times would be from Earth to Venus and back again.  I know Venus is closer to Earth than Mars is.

I like the idea. It's has, as Dave Scott argued for Apollo 15's landing site--grandeur. But there's a greater challenge against radiation shielding than a Mars mission due to the closer proximity to the Sun at 67 million miles. That's a lot of charged particles to deflect.

On the plus side, it's a "safer" cruise and a good test of resources needed to go and stay at Mars.

It's always a theological/scientific puzzle to me that the two closest terrestrial planets lack a true magnetosphere, yet it's "middle cousin" between the two has one that's as well-shielding as Uranus and Neptune's. How did we get to be so special?  ???
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Offline jvanantwerp

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #10 on: 12/15/2014 06:34 pm »

*snip*

EDIT: The Block I (70 tonne-to-LEO) SLS can put, by my math, 30.323 metric tons through TVI.  Since mission delta-v after that point is only 60 m/s, we can probably de-tank Orion to only 300 m/s of delta-v with plenty of margin, so we have more payload.  But even if Orion needs to be fully-tanked for some or other abort scenario, that still leaves 9.073 metric tons for a hab module.  The MPLMs mass 4 metric tons each, leaving five tonnes for supplies and scientific payload (and also extra radiation shielding).  Alternatively, one can use a Cygnus-derived Mission Module.

How much would 4 people need for 400 days?

If I remember right, the old NASA data was approximately 3.3 kg per person per day for bare minimum existance.  If we up that to 3.5 kg/day to let them change underwear once in a while that comes out to about 5.6 metric tons for 400 days.  So you couldn't send 4 people with the above numbers, two people maybe.

Offline kch

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #11 on: 12/15/2014 06:59 pm »

It's always a theological/scientific puzzle to me that the two closest terrestrial planets lack a true magnetosphere, yet it's "middle cousin" between the two has one that's as well-shielding as Uranus and Neptune's. How did we get to be so special?  ???

That is a rather larger question, deserving at least its own thread ... perhaps on another site (there are many that are more oriented toward this type of inquiry).  :)

Offline Burninate

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #12 on: 12/15/2014 07:01 pm »
BEAM is a technology demonstrator intended to sit in orbit, be a lightweight inflatable bag closet, and not leak.

Its utility is very limited, particularly because hatches require reinforcement that is much heavier than an equivalent flat hull.  LEO and maybe, in certain conditions, the Earth-Moon system.  In specifications, it is nearly the same pressurized volume and mass as a Cygnus v1 cargo module.

A BA-330, on the other hand, is a full-fledged miniature space station, and probably represents about the minimum scale of _habitat_ necessary for a planetary flyby mission with 3-5 people aboard, assuming half a dozen other smaller-volume modules are attached.  It is *much* lighter weight and easier to launch than 330m^3 of hab volume would otherwise be.
« Last Edit: 12/15/2014 07:16 pm by Burninate »

Offline mike robel

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #13 on: 12/15/2014 07:48 pm »
Unless you have a good sensor package and a launch bay full of relatively small probes, I see no reason to send people on a Venus Flyby mission.  We could send more than a few probes for the cost of an Orion Mission.

I suppose it would be a good stress test, but there is probably a minimum of information return and no way we could land a sample return or Human on the planet, given the surface conditions.

Don't send a man when a robot will do.  Don't send a robot if you need a human.

Offline clongton

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #14 on: 12/15/2014 08:35 pm »
Should you do the transposition and dock, make sure you have a good hard dock, check out the hab, and after making sure all is well, then do the departure burn?  Then dispose of the EDS.

BEAM has insufficient internal structure to support itself during the burn.
Not hard to modify it in order to have a mountable/dismountable column.

The premise of the thread was to use what we have without structural modifications.
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Offline jtrame

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #15 on: 12/15/2014 10:37 pm »
We cannot in good faith take what we have without modification and fly this mission.

But we could fly it with a stretched Cygnus, and I think the original poster mentioned Cygnus, but not with Cygnus as it presently exists.

I get it, it's a "just for fun" thread.  But can't we inject a little reality? 
« Last Edit: 12/15/2014 11:12 pm by jtrame »

Offline clongton

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #16 on: 12/15/2014 11:35 pm »
We cannot in good faith take what we have without modification and fly this mission.

But we could fly it with a stretched Cygnus, and I think the original poster mentioned Cygnus, but not with Cygnus as it presently exists.

I get it, it's a "just for fun" thread.  But can't we inject a little reality? 

Not if it means putting structure where none exists and was never designed for. BEAM is nothing but a balloon. Redesigning BEAM or Cygnus takes the thread off topic. This site is prided by staying on-topic. If you want to redesign BEAM or Cygnus then start a thread for that.
« Last Edit: 12/15/2014 11:36 pm by clongton »
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Offline Vultur

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #17 on: 12/16/2014 01:16 am »
A BA-330, on the other hand, is a full-fledged miniature space station, and probably represents about the minimum scale of _habitat_ necessary for a planetary flyby mission with 3-5 people aboard, assuming half a dozen other smaller-volume modules are attached.  It is *much* lighter weight and easier to launch than 330m^3 of hab volume would otherwise be.

BA330 is attractive if they're already building them and you can get them off the shelf... but I don't think a BA330 + other modules is anywhere near minimum for 4 people. 330 m^2 (not even counting the other modules) is pretty huge in zero-gravity where you can use all the volume.

I think the really important thing is privacy (eg individual soundproofed 'bed-cubicles') not so much lots of volume. I'd imagine 120-150 m^3 would be fine if you picked people for tolerating tight spaces, and with modern entertainment.

(Consider space on old sailing ships etc.... they often did very long missions...)

Offline MattMason

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #18 on: 12/16/2014 01:26 am »

It's always a theological/scientific puzzle to me that the two closest terrestrial planets lack a true magnetosphere, yet it's "middle cousin" between the two has one that's as well-shielding as Uranus and Neptune's. How did we get to be so special?  ???

That is a rather larger question, deserving at least its own thread ... perhaps on another site (there are many that are more oriented toward this type of inquiry).  :)

And it was rhetorical, of course. Not all questions are meant to be answered.

The lack of magnetospheres makes for a valid mission. MAVEN is studying how the solar wind might have caused Mars to lose its atmosphere over the eons, while Venus is entirely the opposite. Why the difference? Venusian proximity to more heat is certainly a factor, but how would be a great close-up study that humans could do.
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Offline yokem55

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Re: Orion - Venus Flyby?
« Reply #19 on: 12/16/2014 02:52 am »


...no way we could land a sample return or Human on the planet, given the surface conditions.
I don't think it's so impossible, just really, really hard. At a minimum you would need a lander with really good insulation and then an active cooling layer underneath that, with coolant piped up to an external heat exchanger that can heat up to 5-600° C to get 150° or so of delta-t. Then to do EVA's you would need the lander use some really advanced saturation diving techniques to bring the astronauts down to ~90 atmospheres so the suits don't have to resemble a Newtsuit.

Granted, a human landing on Venus is Cave Johnson Science (Science isn't about Why, it's about Why Not!), but impossible it is not....

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