Author Topic: ESAS Presentation Live update thread  (Read 68073 times)

Online Chris Bergin

ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« on: 09/19/2005 03:40 am »
This thread will contain a "ticker" of information from Monday's ESAS press conferences, shown on NASA TV..with image captures added to the ticker.
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #1 on: 09/19/2005 10:50 am »
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Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #2 on: 09/19/2005 10:53 am »
That's never the 100 billion dollar plan!?!?!? The article contradicts itself anyway!
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #3 on: 09/19/2005 10:55 am »
Hardly the clearest read in the world....and leaves me thinking we're simply going to repeat the Apollo missions with a load of KSC workers laid off (or more like retired when we ironically lose all the Apollo workers at retirement age).

Please don't let this be the presentation, basically NASA moving to sending people up on an SRB and an Apollo to wander around the Moon for a few days.

Needs to be more than this, but that article is quoting one person and the writer got over excited and slapped his un-edited notes into the article I'd say! ;)

Real fear NASA is going backwards four decades.
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Offline SimonShuttle

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #4 on: 09/19/2005 10:57 am »
So. We get rid of the three Shuttles.

We lose interest with the ISS.

We start sending people up on SRBs

We pretend we're Neil Armstrong and bounce around the Moon.

Whoopeeee, how fu-king boring is that!

"Hey, we're NASA and we send people to space in 1960s capsuals. We used to have space planes".

Offline Jason Sole

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #5 on: 09/19/2005 10:58 am »
Man. I hate it if this is it.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #6 on: 09/19/2005 11:01 am »
They need to throw something like the AIAA documents out in this or the media and the public will be totally unconvinced.

This smells of an excuse to lose a load of KSC staff on a plan that could be pulled in five years. NASA HAVE to do this right and if some boffin blabbers on about a SRB stick CEV it's going to be a wet dream for the Shuttle basher crowd and those who romance over the good ole days of the Apollo.

Problem is...it's not the 1960s-1970s anymore!
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Offline Sergi Manstov

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #7 on: 09/19/2005 11:07 am »
Thank you NASA for dropping the ball if this is their "plan"  :)

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #8 on: 09/19/2005 11:16 am »
Well given no one on the ESAS is talking (that I know of) this could be just some second guessing pre-emption. I have no doubt this is on the document...I think we're all sure of that. But the lack of a plan (just some SRB launcher to the moon with an EDS) would be a massive anti-climax and would point to the lack of a 100 billion plan if the full 100 billion plan was not revealed, imho.

Like I said, we need to see something along the lines of the AIAA document, which shows the progression through to the SDLVs. That would get people excited about more than manned missions to romance about the Apollo era. This would show we're looking to set up base ahead of the mission to Mars.

Anything less and NASA deserves to be critised.
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Offline JamesSpaceFlight

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #9 on: 09/19/2005 11:24 am »
Very uninspiring, but we should wait for the official press conference.

Offline Space101

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #10 on: 09/19/2005 11:27 am »
Same here, wait for the press conference. It could be someone's rushed on a story that only has quotes that work for this one element of the plan.
Let's go and explore space.

Offline SimonShuttle

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #11 on: 09/19/2005 11:42 am »
Where is the permanent manned base on the moon, that's what gets to me.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #12 on: 09/19/2005 11:45 am »
Quote
SimonShuttle - 19/9/2005  12:42 PM

Where is the permanent manned base on the moon, that's what gets to me.

That's what I'm miffed about. I can only think the writer could cover one element of the plan - rather than all of the plan - thus that's why it doesn't mention your aforementioned comments.

This simply can't be the $100 billion plan. As it stands it's an excuse of a plan to get rid of a load of KSC workers on the promise (which can be broken) of repeating Apollo days , which is great news for some of the older posters and STS haters on here who want those days to return.

Imho, this leaves NASA in a very dangerous position.

We lose the international partner requirement that ensures the STS continuation (or as viable as it can be continued for the ISS....no ISS and I doubt we'd still be flying - or trying to fly - the Shuttle) and put our eggs into a basket that could be scrapped with a change in the political climate.

Result, we end up with Sat launches from the Cape and the end of the manned space flight missions at NASA for years and years.

Again, we have to wait for the conference. I do not believe this article is "the plan". But I for one have gone from excited to damn nervous.

I'm only commenting on the article...as I don't think it's correct as way of showing "the plan."
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Offline Flightstar

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #13 on: 09/19/2005 11:47 am »
Everyone needs to calm down as that article cannot be what they will present today. If they do, someone should be fired for going public with just that.

Offline Chris SF

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #14 on: 09/19/2005 11:54 am »
So lockheed Martin lost?

Offline James Lowe1

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #15 on: 09/19/2005 11:58 am »
Looks like it, although who knows till NASA say something concrete. Luckily that will be today. I think some of the reference threads can be posted here to show what we 'hope' will be in the plans.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #16 on: 09/19/2005 11:59 am »
Quote
Chris SF - 19/9/2005  12:54 PM

So lockheed Martin lost?

There's little talk of the CEV Lifting Body, which I think is a shame.
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #17 on: 09/19/2005 12:02 pm »
Quote
James Lowe - 19/9/2005  12:58 PM

I think some of the reference threads can be posted here to show what we 'hope' will be in the plans.

Agreed:

SDLV:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=310&start=1

ESAS Overview Charts:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=18001

Excellent user driven CEV thread:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=414&start=1
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Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #18 on: 09/19/2005 12:04 pm »
In case anyone missed it. That article had a sub headline of "Yawn of a new era?". How true.
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Offline SpaceMad

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #19 on: 09/19/2005 12:07 pm »
Boring Spaceships. That's what you get when you put a guy with seven degrees and a self confessed boffin in charge of NASA.

Offline JamesSpaceFlight

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #20 on: 09/19/2005 12:09 pm »
I'd rather have unsexy spaceships than ones that look great and go wrong. I'm annoyed by the apparent (I know this isn't official yet) lack of a plan that sees us do more than 1969.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #21 on: 09/19/2005 12:22 pm »
I would add there's nothing wrong with the Orbiter, it's always been the parts that make up the STS (The SRBs and the ET) that have let it down.
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Offline James Lowe1

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #22 on: 09/19/2005 01:19 pm »
20 posts in an hour and then everyone goes quiet. Maybe things calmed down ;)

Two hours 'till conference.

Offline MKremer

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #23 on: 09/19/2005 01:22 pm »
Given the technologies of the era it was designed in, who's to say that similar problems might have ended up occuring no matter what type of shuttle launch system had been developed? All the designs had an orbiter mounted to some type of booster stage on either the top or the bottom. With the overly-ambitious flight rates NASA was always promising, they could have done the same thing - overlooked or downplayed critical flight risks because of schedule pressures, false assumptions, and/or insufficient data.


Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #24 on: 09/19/2005 01:47 pm »
The SRB is well know for something that once lit, it won't ever stop till it runs out of propellant or it's blown up. Is that safe???
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Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #25 on: 09/19/2005 02:23 pm »
Can anyone spot one of the posters on here's car? ;)
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Offline MKremer

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #26 on: 09/19/2005 02:52 pm »
Quote
FransonUK - 19/9/2005  8:47 AM

The SRB is well know for something that once lit, it won't ever stop till it runs out of propellant or it's blown up. Is that safe???

Yup, as safe or safer than a propulsion system built with thousands of separate parts and using high speed turbopumps for cryogenic or hypergolic propellants. SRB's can't explode - the propellant doesn't burn fast enough.

One of the tragic circumstances with Challenger is that the SRB flange leaked on the tank side. If the leak had been on the opposite side, Challenger would have made it to low orbit.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #27 on: 09/19/2005 03:01 pm »
Have a look at the image they put up....

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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #28 on: 09/19/2005 03:07 pm »
Not many people at the conference  :o

Griffin on...images....
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Offline MKremer

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #29 on: 09/19/2005 03:08 pm »
That image really is deceiving - it does look like a conglomeration of SRB/Centaur/Apollo CM&SM.  ;)

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #30 on: 09/19/2005 03:09 pm »
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Offline Flightstar

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #31 on: 09/19/2005 03:10 pm »
SDLV on.....

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #32 on: 09/19/2005 03:11 pm »
SLDV is a FIVE SSME, 2x5 seg SRB...cool.
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #33 on: 09/19/2005 03:12 pm »
CEV is a SRB. Second stage is ONE SSME.
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #34 on: 09/19/2005 03:12 pm »
Yep, it's an Apollo on a stick.
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #35 on: 09/19/2005 03:13 pm »
Lunar Lander is LOX/METH (something else, missed it).
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #36 on: 09/19/2005 03:14 pm »
This is 1969 all over again :(
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #37 on: 09/19/2005 03:14 pm »
"Very much like Apollo" - Griffin.
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #38 on: 09/19/2005 03:15 pm »
Landing at Edwards
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #39 on: 09/19/2005 03:16 pm »
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #40 on: 09/19/2005 03:19 pm »
1 in 2000 failure ratio compared to 1 in 220 on the STS.
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #41 on: 09/19/2005 03:22 pm »
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #42 on: 09/19/2005 03:23 pm »
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Offline Avron

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #43 on: 09/19/2005 03:23 pm »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 19/9/2005  11:19 AM

1 in 2000 failure ratio compared to 1 in 220 on the STS.

I think the STS failure rate has been proven to be Higher than 1 in 220, but as you rightly noted its not the Shuttle but the Tank and SRB's that have failed..

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #44 on: 09/19/2005 03:24 pm »
Stupid Media alert..

I won't repeat his question...but he asked if we should spend the money.

"The space program is a long term investment in our future." - Griffin.
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #45 on: 09/19/2005 03:26 pm »
104 billion dollars for the first lunar mission.
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #46 on: 09/19/2005 03:27 pm »
He just said the CEV can service Hubble  :o
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Offline Avron

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #47 on: 09/19/2005 03:28 pm »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 19/9/2005  11:27 AM

He just said the CEV can service Hubble  :o

How? Hubble will be long gone by then

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #48 on: 09/19/2005 03:30 pm »
That's what I was thinking.

He just said it's "Apollo on Steriods" - there's the headline for you ;)
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Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #49 on: 09/19/2005 03:31 pm »
Well this is all bollocks if you ask me
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #50 on: 09/19/2005 03:32 pm »
2012 for CEV. 2018 for the Moon.
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #51 on: 09/19/2005 03:34 pm »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 19/9/2005  11:30 AM

That's what I was thinking.

He just said it's "Apollo on Steriods" - there's the headline for you ;)

Would you pay that much to do less for more 30 plus years later...Wonder what the UK tax payers would think of that Plan?

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #52 on: 09/19/2005 03:34 pm »
"We can live with a two year gap between STS and CEV" - Griffin.
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Offline braddock

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #53 on: 09/19/2005 03:35 pm »
He said NASA would do no technology research except for this vehicle.  I assume he meant no new _manned space flight and launch_ technology research funding....I sure HOPE so anyway...

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #54 on: 09/19/2005 03:37 pm »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 19/9/2005  11:34 AM

"We can live with a two year gap between STS and CEV" - Griffin.


He can.. but I cannot...:( We all know it will not be two years but Four at least... been there done that... the new NASA..

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #55 on: 09/19/2005 03:38 pm »
Next to nothing on the moon base, this is all just about the CEV.
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Offline braddock

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #56 on: 09/19/2005 03:40 pm »
Nothing about ISS transition either.  Are these new "universal" docking systems already flying on ISS, or how does it all fit together?


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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #57 on: 09/19/2005 03:41 pm »
CLV and CEV to be worked on first. SLDV not till after that has been completed.
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #58 on: 09/19/2005 03:42 pm »
Quote
braddock - 19/9/2005  4:40 PM

Nothing about ISS transition either.  Are these new "universal" docking systems already flying on ISS, or how does it all fit together?


Just that the CEV can service the ISS....nothing on the SDLV completing the ISS past STS retirement.
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #59 on: 09/19/2005 03:43 pm »
Eventually, the Moon Missions will be alike to the ISS turnaround of six month stays. That won't be from the start, that is way in the future. Sortie missions will be first.
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Offline braddock

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #60 on: 09/19/2005 03:44 pm »
What was the CEV weight mentioned?  Is it within EELV lifting specs?

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #61 on: 09/19/2005 03:45 pm »
He just said he isn't sure when the Shuttle will retire. That's interesting.
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #62 on: 09/19/2005 03:46 pm »
US looking to partner with international elements that wish to join them for the missions to the Moon.
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Offline Flightstar

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #63 on: 09/19/2005 03:47 pm »
Quote
braddock - 19/9/2005  10:44 AM

What was the CEV weight mentioned?  Is it within EELV lifting specs?

I missed them saying that, sorry.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #64 on: 09/19/2005 03:47 pm »
CEV can carry six crew. Or less than six and 7,000lbs of cargo.
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #65 on: 09/19/2005 03:48 pm »
That was pressurised cargo.

25mt unpressurised cargo can be carried on the service module version of the CEV.

No cargo and crew mix on the unpressurised cargo.
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Offline SimonShuttle

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #66 on: 09/19/2005 03:51 pm »
We have to make sure the last Shuttle flight is the safest flight ever...to take us into the right standards for the CEV.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #67 on: 09/19/2005 03:53 pm »
Several people from the Apollo program consulted. We did not set out to make this like Apollo. It was not a preconcieved idea to make this look like Apollo.

Well it is!!
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #68 on: 09/19/2005 03:56 pm »
SRB is the more reliable man rated space flight hardware ever built - Griffin.
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #69 on: 09/19/2005 03:59 pm »
This is not about new money for NASA, it's about redirecting and refocusing where NASA's money goes.

There won't be a job boom or a job boost at NASA.
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #70 on: 09/19/2005 04:04 pm »
Griffin says he is a big supporter of commerical service to the ISS for the likes of Rutan etc.
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #71 on: 09/19/2005 04:10 pm »
Conference over. Anit-climax if you ask me.
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #72 on: 09/19/2005 04:12 pm »
Some more images:
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #73 on: 09/19/2005 04:13 pm »
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Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #74 on: 09/19/2005 04:15 pm »
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Offline MKremer

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #75 on: 09/19/2005 04:34 pm »
I think it's a smart plan - it has specified goals, but it's also budget-driven based on the current manned spaceflight budget amount. It also easily transitions much of the workforce skill-set over to the new systems.

To develop and fly a more advanced vehicle (SSTO, lifting body CV, totally new boosters/engines, etc.) would be a budget-buster type program. Then they're back to the Apollo and Shuttle days - constantly begging Congress for more money every year and/or savaging the rest of NASA's budget to fund huge development costs. (Shades of the ISS program before O'Keefe came on board).

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #76 on: 09/19/2005 04:37 pm »
Here's a good image from NASA.

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Offline mattrog

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #77 on: 09/19/2005 04:50 pm »
sorry if this is old but the nasa main page now has the animation that looks like it was shown in the press conf. (doh i misssed it !!) pluss a whole big bunch of pics and other info !

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #78 on: 09/19/2005 04:55 pm »
Yeah, we're going to put the press conference audio and some videos on the FTP server all being well in a few mins.
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #79 on: 09/19/2005 05:33 pm »
Here's the press conference in full and the animation of the CEV Moon Mission.
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Offline braddock

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #80 on: 09/19/2005 05:36 pm »
No copying and pasting, just URLs. - Moderator.

Offline Avron

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #81 on: 09/19/2005 05:53 pm »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 19/9/2005  11:59 AM

This is not about new money for NASA, it's about redirecting and refocusing where NASA's money goes.

There won't be a job boom or a job boost at NASA.

This is all about the Money..

Offline SRBseparama

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #82 on: 09/19/2005 06:04 pm »
The more I listen to this, the more I hear that the $104 billion only goes up to the FIRST mission to the Moon (the sortie mission which will be just like an Apollo mission). Of course a lot of that cash goes on design etc, but this seems like an awful amount of cash for nothing new.

Offline SimonShuttle

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #83 on: 09/19/2005 06:14 pm »
Nothing on the Moon base, nothing on Mars, nothing on anything other than Apollo type stuff.

Offline Flightstar

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #84 on: 09/19/2005 06:14 pm »
Quote
SimonShuttle - 19/9/2005  1:14 PM

Nothing on the Moon base, nothing on Mars, nothing on anything other than Apollo type stuff.

Sometimes you have to take one step back and two steps forward.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #85 on: 09/19/2005 07:10 pm »
Well, we're certainly doing just that ;)
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Offline MKremer

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #86 on: 09/19/2005 07:19 pm »
Quote
SimonShuttle - 19/9/2005  1:14 PM

Nothing on the Moon base, nothing on Mars, nothing on anything other than Apollo type stuff.

If NASA had a blank check for spending, and didn't have to follow the President's directives, and didn't have to answer to the public or Congress, we could have a hell of a wide open space program, both manned and unmanned. Unfortunately, the Real World of Washington politics, budgets, the press, and public opinion doesn't allow that.
You start talking about planning for Mars and big moon bases, and the first question will be "How much will that whole thing cost?"
"We really don't know right now." is *not* acceptable.

Even now the U.S. press is headlining "$104 BILLION DOLLARS!!!!!!" as though it's over and above NASA's regular budget and needs to be paid immediately. (Many reports are burying the real budget numbers and breakout per year near the end, if at all.)

Offline Shuttle Man

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #87 on: 09/19/2005 07:42 pm »
Or we could remove the billion or two spent per year on the beauocrates that plague NASA and use that instead.
Ex-Apollo, waiting for NASA to finish what we started.

Offline NASA_Twix_JSC

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #88 on: 09/19/2005 09:10 pm »
For those that wanted a Lifting Body. One word: Cash.

Offline Bruce H

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #89 on: 09/19/2005 09:23 pm »
Lockmarts lifting body proposal is dead. They are going to compete on the same terms as today's announcement.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #90 on: 09/19/2005 09:36 pm »
Quote
Bruce H - 19/9/2005  10:23 PM

Lockmarts lifting body proposal is dead. They are going to compete on the same terms as today's announcement.

That's a shame. Don't tell me, it's all about the cash...I know.
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Offline Bruce H

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #91 on: 09/19/2005 10:00 pm »
You got it.

Offline nacnud

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #92 on: 09/19/2005 10:45 pm »

A lot of people on don't seem to like these new proposals much :( don’t know why. If you look past the capsule this plan has all the elements needed to really work and a solid base for further developments later on.

I think it is a very good use of available technology and budget. Just think before Bush announced the VSE NASA would still be flying the STS to the ISS andnothing more in 2020. Now they should have the first few Luna missions under their belt and well on the way to developing a capability to visit Mars.

Don't forget that there is still the commercial access to the ISS proposals to come later in the year, if you want space planes and novel ideas there is the place to look.


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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #93 on: 09/19/2005 10:48 pm »
I think everyone got excited about a moon base etc. Given this is a holy shrine of Shuttle support, to lose it to the CEV has to have more benefits than what looks like an Apollo to most. Bottom line is this is the money we have and this is what we can do for now with the money we got. People will get more excited as it drawns nearer than Man is going out of Earth's Orbit.

Offline Shuttle Man

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #94 on: 09/19/2005 10:59 pm »
We've both worked on Apollo in its later life, Flight. This will only look like Apollo by way of its shape for the ballistic travel. What goes inside will be nothing like the LEM etc ;) I think a lot of people will like some images of what the inside panels will look like, as that will excite people.
Ex-Apollo, waiting for NASA to finish what we started.

Offline Flightstar

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #95 on: 09/19/2005 11:04 pm »
Quote
Shuttle Man - 19/9/2005  5:59 PM

We've both worked on Apollo in its later life, Flight. This will only look like Apollo by way of its shape for the ballistic travel. What goes inside will be nothing like the LEM etc ;) I think a lot of people will like some images of what the inside panels will look like, as that will excite people.

I was kinda hoping they'd allow for a FD Attitude Indicator to go on board, remember that peice of state of the art tech ;) I've got a spare in the garage.

Offline Shuttle Man

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #96 on: 09/19/2005 11:11 pm »
I've got a few spares. I'm sure I've got an attitude set panel. Hey, phone Griffin and tell him we'll do our bit for half the price!
Ex-Apollo, waiting for NASA to finish what we started.

Offline Flightstar

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #97 on: 09/19/2005 11:14 pm »
Ha, I like it!

Offline JPL-Jones

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #98 on: 09/19/2005 11:18 pm »
Meanwhile we'll just keep on doing everything cheap and well. You're welcome :)

Offline Space101

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #99 on: 09/19/2005 11:20 pm »
If it walks like a dog, it is a dog. This is NASA going back to the 1970s and I really would love to see a breakdown of what 104,000,000,000 dollars is paying for.
Let's go and explore space.

Offline NASA_LaRC_SP

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #100 on: 09/19/2005 11:28 pm »
Quote
Space101 - 19/9/2005  6:20 PM

If it walks like a dog, it is a dog. This is NASA going back to the 1970s and I really would love to see a breakdown of what 104,000,000,000 dollars is paying for.

What do you propose? Phoning Paramount and asking if we can loan Starship Enterprise for a couple of million as we want to set up a base on one of Vulcan's Moons? We're not talking 20 guys in a workshop you know?

Offline Sergi Manstov

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #101 on: 09/20/2005 02:10 am »
We hope (here at RIA) that Russia to announce 2016 Moon plans on October 1 at Soyuz launch. I will be taking money bets that we are going to the moon before USA and in a space plane (Kliper) before you do in your not a space plane! :)

Offline Sergi Manstov

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #102 on: 09/20/2005 02:12 am »
2005 the year NASA went backwards and passed Russia going the other way!

Offline Colby

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #103 on: 09/20/2005 02:33 am »

You know, on any other day, I'd slap you for saying that... but I can't argue with it tonight, it's the truth. We dropped the ball, and we dropped it good... if the Russian's can't make it to the Moon before we can, then there is something wrong!

Colby

Offline SRBseparama

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #104 on: 09/20/2005 02:34 am »
How cheeky would that be of the Russians!

Offline Shuttle Man

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #105 on: 09/20/2005 02:36 am »
If they time it for just a matter of 11 days time, they really are going to cause some upset. I don't think that is in the benefit of all. I realize there is some Soviet pride left over, but they should hold this back if true.
Ex-Apollo, waiting for NASA to finish what we started.

Offline Colby

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #106 on: 09/20/2005 02:45 am »
I don't know... everyone really needs to calm down, including me. This is going to enable us quite a few capablities in the future.  I hope a Space Race ensues!!!! I hope this is becomes a matter of national pride, because even though funding might be plentiful for only a short time, private industry might be able to catch an handhold... I hope :( :(... this was going to be my future career field!
Colby

Offline Shuttle Man

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #107 on: 09/20/2005 02:53 am »
A space race, of course. Nothing gets you stiring the old cash pot more than a good space race. We need to fall out with Russia again, maybe Bush can call them part of the axis of evil, then NASA will cash in! (Joking, if you are Russian on here).
Ex-Apollo, waiting for NASA to finish what we started.

Offline gyro2020

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #108 on: 09/20/2005 02:56 am »
Quote
Sergi Manstov - 19/9/2005  9:10 PM

We hope (here at RIA) that Russia to announce 2016 Moon plans on October 1 at Soyuz launch. I will be taking money bets that we are going to the moon before USA and in a space plane (Kliper) before you do in your not a space plane! :)

Hands up who didn't see that coming :(

Offline Colby

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #109 on: 09/20/2005 02:59 am »

Everyone has overreacted to an extent!!! According to the information on nasa.gov, the architecture for going to the Moon will be begin development in 2011, and in 2013, ways to stay on the Moon for long-term missions will begin development. The plan is better than I initially thought... I have hope.

Colby

Offline Space101

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #110 on: 09/20/2005 03:01 am »
Griffin failed to mention that today. I wonder if the suits at NASA said "Shit! The public don't like it. Tell em something else that's cool, that'll keep em off our backs for a bit."
Let's go and explore space.

Offline Space101

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #111 on: 09/20/2005 03:03 am »
Some joker has signed on to the forum as a new member with the name Michael J Fox. Very funny "Back to the Future" :)
Let's go and explore space.

Offline Colby

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #112 on: 09/20/2005 03:24 am »
No, this was a PDF document they made with this... why they would bury this is beyond me though! I think they will pull out some more stuff to appease the public in the coming weeks and months, hopefully it will be pictures! America is very visually-oriented.
Colby

Offline SequencOr

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #113 on: 09/20/2005 04:02 am »
Oy, Sergi! Is this going to be just a fly around, or is there a plan to land this 'space plane' on the surface?

We certainty know how important it is to have a lifting craft  to cut through of the vacuum of space or to go through the thick atmosphere of the Moon - don't we? :)

Remember, we've been there several times before -- this is going to be a homecoming of sorts for the USA.

But all jests aside, I wish your plans play out well for your nation (as I know ours will for us), and that your cosmonauts enjoy their round about and/or first steps on the Moon.

Lets play nice, eh?



La Luna, Marte y más Allá

Offline realtime

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #114 on: 09/20/2005 04:16 am »
Even though it's painfully obvious that NASA's in desperate need of some pro PR, I have to see this as a great start.  They're approaching exploration the way anyone learns to do anything well -- concentrate on the fundamentals.  When you have mastered those, then you can concentrate on style.  It is dull to play scales, but there is no other way to become first violin.

What NASA is doing is building infrastructure for sustainable expansion into space.  If they play their cards right and help foster the small companies like t/Space, XCor et al, you could see all the winged thingies on top of the stack that you ever wanted to see, and at a fraction of the cost of paying Lockmart to over-engineer a warmed-over X-33.  If Bigelow gets to buy some heavy lift from NASA, you will see orbiting space hotels.  With oil prices what they are, maybe sooner than later you will see solar power plants in orbit.

With heavy lift lots of things are possible and the cone of possibilities just keeps expanding as new technology comes online.  Keep it positive, guys!  You're just getting started.


Offline Avron

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #115 on: 09/20/2005 04:24 am »
Quote
Sergi Manstov - 19/9/2005  10:10 PM

We hope (here at RIA) that Russia to announce 2016 Moon plans on October 1 at Soyuz launch. I will be taking money bets that we are going to the moon before USA and in a space plane (Kliper) before you do in your not a space plane! :)


I am thinking of putting money on China to be on the moon before NASA gets Back...:(

Offline Avron

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #116 on: 09/20/2005 04:38 am »
Quote
realtime - 20/9/2005  12:16 AM


What NASA is doing is building infrastructure for sustainable expansion into space.

With heavy lift lots of things are possible and the cone of possibilities just keeps expanding as new technology comes online.  

I agree fully, however, I just dont see why NASA needs to spend 104 billion and all that time ( first time was from zero to landing in , what 8 years) to do an upgraded Apollo. Please tell me what does it take to recertify a Delta or Atlas for manned space flight?

If the CEV launcher (the stick) minus the CEV, can carry 25mt into LEO, what will it take to build the structure and logistic support needed to launch ISS components on this launcher?

Nasa says that it will be ready for launch in what 2012, based on what, there is no plan (deliverables schedule), just a budget, so how can we expect this CEV to be ready in time for that date or any other date.

There are good points in the new vehicles, but there is a lot missing, yes they are safer, proven technology, (hell its Apollo), but where is the Vision?

Offline SequencOr

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #117 on: 09/20/2005 05:02 am »
This Vision is an unfolding vision. I think there was a reason that the official presentation was so anti climatic as some have suggested. Michael Griffin wanted to lay out the first basic step to the vision -- the new ships, and back to the moon. Keeping the announcement simple was a very good move IMHO. Can you imagine if Griffin had put all his eggs into one basket and threw it to the wolves?! And some think there were some bad headlines after this announcement? I hate to even think about it.
I have absolute faith that the vision is much more extensive than was presented. Things will unfold gradually but surely.

I wasn't around in the Apollo days, but I don't think there was a set schedule for that either. It was just: "by the end of this decade"

The "stick" will launch -- be it in 2011 or 2014. It has to. The shuttle is gonna be in national air museums.

Have faith!
La Luna, Marte y más Allá

Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #118 on: 09/20/2005 10:30 am »
I didn't know the Kliper would be ready that fast?
Don't ya wish your spaceship was hot like me

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #119 on: 09/20/2005 10:31 am »
Sounds to me like someone in the Russian Space Agency watched the conference, phoned up a media type and said they will beat the Americans and that set this one off. Sergi's gonna need quotes.
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Offline SimonShuttle

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #120 on: 09/20/2005 01:04 pm »
Anik might know more?

Online Chris Bergin

RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #121 on: 09/20/2005 02:57 pm »
We're checking it out as it does make sense it was a reactionary comment.
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Offline gladiator1332

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #122 on: 09/20/2005 03:51 pm »
And where are the Russians going to get the funds to do this? The last I heard the ESA wasn't planning Moon missions until 2020-2030. They don't seem to fired up for a race with NASA. I can see a CHina-NASA race, but I really can't see the Russians abandoning the ISS in order to fund a Moon program. They'll make it to the Moon someday, just not in 10 years.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #123 on: 09/20/2005 04:49 pm »
I think it is a case of Soviet pride. They had to give some hinting comment to look like they aren't bowing down. Maybe in respect to the previous space race. I don't think there's anything in it though.

Offline James Lowe1

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #124 on: 09/20/2005 08:38 pm »
A space race with China would work pretty well.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #125 on: 09/20/2005 10:15 pm »
Well, I've given it some more thought and I'm really not at all excited about this. 13-15 years in the future we do what we did in 1969. Only when we do something new will I be excited.
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Offline MKremer

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #126 on: 09/20/2005 10:33 pm »
OK for the sake of argument  :)
What would you call "something new"?
(Keep in mind your ideas have to be restricted to the current manned spaceflight budget, plus you need to have a safe and robust system in operation by at least 2014 and be able to end all Shuttle flights by 2010).

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #127 on: 09/20/2005 10:43 pm »
Plans to get some SDLVs loaded with elements of a Moon Base. There was a luke warm semi-mention in Griffin's speech, that was all!
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Offline gladiator1332

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #128 on: 09/20/2005 10:47 pm »
Quote
FransonUK - 20/9/2005  6:15 PM

Well, I've given it some more thought and I'm really not at all excited about this. 13-15 years in the future we do what we did in 1969. Only when we do something new will I be excited.


No spacecraft design is "new"...it always has ties to something else. Your "new" LM lifting body...new? hardly. It is based off of, oh my god!, 1960's technology! Why is it that everyone thinks lifting body's are cutting edge brand new designs? We've been flying them nearly as long as capsules.

And how do you know that the CEV is just going to be another Apollo? Sure it looks like Apollo exterior wise, but do you honestly think NASA is sending up the the Apollo CSM. Underneath that conical shape is a brand new spacecraft.

All I keep hearing is that were going back to the 60's. Really? You mean the computer that will run this spacecraft is going to be less powerful then the calculator I just used in math today? Sure its the images of the exterior we look at, however, the real spacecraft is what's underneath.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #129 on: 09/20/2005 10:59 pm »
I think most of the negative opinion is based on the fact it's an Apollo mission, rather than the Apollo look to the craft. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #130 on: 09/20/2005 11:03 pm »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 20/9/2005  5:59 PM

I think most of the negative opinion is based on the fact it's an Apollo mission, rather than the Apollo look to the craft. Maybe I'm wrong.

Both if you ask me.
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #131 on: 09/20/2005 11:07 pm »
Quote
FransonUK - 20/9/2005  6:03 PM

Quote
Chris Bergin - 20/9/2005  5:59 PM

I think most of the negative opinion is based on the fact it's an Apollo mission, rather than the Apollo look to the craft. Maybe I'm wrong.

Both if you ask me.

Franson. It looks like that as it's the best for ballistic travel. Apollo just happened to work, which is why it's got that 'shape' again. Flying a Shuttle Orbiter to the Moon would be stupid. You don't need wings in space.

Offline MKremer

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #132 on: 09/20/2005 11:17 pm »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 20/9/2005  5:59 PM

I think most of the negative opinion is based on the fact it's an Apollo mission, rather than the Apollo look to the craft. Maybe I'm wrong.

Well, no... if it were truly an Apollo mission, they'd get out, run around grabbing some rocks and soil, toss out some scientific remote-monitored instruments, jump back in, and head back home. Apollo was primarily designed to put the U.S. flag on the moon with a bit of science thrown into the mix.

This time it's a different focus - to develop the capabilities to figure out what's needed for extended stays on the moon (and eventually Mars), and the tools and techniques to accomplish that. Much different.

Sure, they'll be science done, too, but the main missions will at first be devoted to mostly demonstrating and verifying that the engineering decisions are sound and gathering data for further upgrades and enhancements. That'll lead to what many pro-space folks want to see - the bases and longer term missions.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #133 on: 09/20/2005 11:39 pm »
Well that's what I'd hope for, but they will be on the Moon for around six days, not the six months which is the eventual plan (if the money is there, if it's viable). Sure, they may test some water/oxygen extraction devices, etc...but nothing was really said about that.

Just playing devil's advocate on this.
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Offline MKremer

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #134 on: 09/20/2005 11:44 pm »
And to add, if nothing else, these new plans have stimulated a lot of new interesting debates and conversations. One thing I've noticed is there's very few people arguing against the end of the STS era. It's mostly about the new hardware, and the goals and missions (oh, and costs  ;) ).

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #135 on: 09/20/2005 11:49 pm »
I think everyone is understanding that the STS can't go on forever. It could have gone on longer though. Not that there's a need to with the outplan of its role with the ISS.

Offline MKremer

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #136 on: 09/20/2005 11:54 pm »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 20/9/2005  6:39 PM

Well that's what I'd hope for, but they will be on the Moon for around six days, not the six months which is the eventual plan (if the money is there, if it's viable). Sure, they may test some water/oxygen extraction devices, etc...but nothing was really said about that.

Just playing devil's advocate on this.

True, but they first need to do the new satellites and robotic explorer missions to search out any water and figure out how best to get to it (both landing and the actual mining/extraction).

There are also new 'moon buggies' mentioned (both human and remotely driven), plus new autonomous robotic and tele-operated rovers planned.  Any longer-term missions will also require new longer lasting power supply sources. Those will be needed for any true moon base.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #137 on: 09/21/2005 12:03 am »
You might be seeing the Robotic Dogs as we call them. Crazy little things that run around literally like your pet pooch. JPL guys might have more on this.

Offline gladiator1332

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #138 on: 09/21/2005 12:07 am »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 20/9/2005  6:59 PM

I think most of the negative opinion is based on the fact it's an Apollo mission, rather than the Apollo look to the craft. Maybe I'm wrong.

But why get upset over that. Griffin is doing the right thing here, instead of coming right out and saying, we'll have a Moon base by 2020", he's concetrating on the first step, getting back there. This does not surprise me, as I never expected us to establish a Moon base within the first few missions anyway.

So the intial missions may be Apollo clones, however, things are sure to change later.

Offline gladiator1332

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #139 on: 09/21/2005 12:58 am »
Found this while do a crew exploration vehicle google image search:

http://coop.jsc.nasa.gov/biography/gutkowskij.html

Interesting scale model, he might make a good interview subject to hear more about what he did and what he will do for the CEV.

Offline realtime

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #140 on: 09/21/2005 02:13 am »
Quote
gladiator1332 - 20/9/2005  8:07 PM

... I never expected us to establish a Moon base within the first few missions anyway ...
I think maybe the public did.

There is a risk that this initiative will be seen as only another Apollo, which did a lot of cool things only to fizzle out.  That is a misconception that must be quickly extinguished.  We all know Apollo was to be only the first step toward lunar colonization, as is this new initiative, but the public doesn't remember that.  

Taxpayers pay for dreams, not rocks.

I am hopeful that the colonization goal, preceded by recon visits, will be made clearer to the public in the coming weeks and months.  It might also help to explain that this exploration is being done at about half the cost in today's dollars as Apollo, and will be sustainable.

Griffin should have called this effort "the Real Deal", not "Apollo on steroids".  Sure would help to have a statesman of JFK's caliber hawking the project -- W's oratory staggers like a fratboy at a kegger...


Offline James Lowe1

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #141 on: 09/21/2005 03:16 am »
The media reaction on the whole spectrum of reports has been lukewarm with the emphasis being on the old style mode versus the cost. A lot of it is as badly reported as they tend to show themsleves to be on Shuttle coverage.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #142 on: 09/21/2005 04:31 am »
Quote
realtime - 20/9/2005  10:13 PM


Taxpayers pay for dreams, not rocks.

So true..

I would have liked to see a vision, the dream, with some timelines, something to measure progress against, but nothing... no vision. That I think is the issue..

Like the man said, the Apollo guys got it right, back in the 60's. Ok so it does not look as cool as a Shuttle, but it is a proven design.. I think the lack of support, for the STS is simply that it is tested and failed design not the orbiter so far but the support system. Fact is we aint getting much Manned space filght. There is no human experience, no adventure in grounding. In terms of moving on, lets go for it, we (our generation), need to do this, not only for us, but for all mankind, its built into us to explore.. its time we do it and not worry about Foam ...

Now that my buddy Bill Parsons has moved on and the slick Mr Hale moves in I dont think we will see the passion in spacefight, and that PASSION I think is needed to get the Public back..



EELV,CEV, SDLV..etc really who cares, if we are not flying..

Offline JamesSpaceFlight

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #143 on: 09/21/2005 09:47 am »
I do find all the peices of the trip to the moon interesting, but I'm a bit worried about the single engine on the CEV for the return trip. If that doesn't work, fails or has problems, they have no back up and are stuck!

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #144 on: 09/21/2005 04:02 pm »
I thought saftey had increased, when in fact, they could get back if they had a few RCS problems on the Shuttle, not on this!
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #145 on: 09/21/2005 04:05 pm »
Quote
FransonUK - 21/9/2005  11:02 AM

I thought saftey had increased, when in fact, they could get back if they had a few RCS problems on the Shuttle, not on this!

Looks like you're looking to become the president of the new breed called CEV Bashers ;)

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #146 on: 09/21/2005 04:21 pm »
Quote
FransonUK - 21/9/2005  5:02 PM

I thought saftey had increased, when in fact, they could get back if they had a few RCS problems on the Shuttle, not on this!

You've been watching too much of that film "Space Cowboys" where they only have one OMS Pod for the de-orbit burn, so flip her over and use the forward RCS to slow down. Dunno if we'll ever see that on a NASA "What to do" list anywhere!
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Offline SequencOr

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #147 on: 09/21/2005 04:42 pm »
The CEV hasn't even been designed yet. I don't know if it's prudent to assume what back-up systems and safty measures it's has or doesn't have.

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Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #148 on: 09/21/2005 04:52 pm »
Sorry, don't mean to bash. I know bashing anything spaceship is not a welcomed thing on here.

So, this is not the final design? How much different can it be from the presentation?
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Offline SequencOr

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #149 on: 09/21/2005 05:05 pm »
Well, there's a competition going on, so the actual detailed design of the CEV has the potential to look quite different than what was seen in the presentation

... as long as it fits snug atop the new launch vehicles.

The presentation seen, was a basic but now official template of what NASA is looking for -- and what the competitors have to strive to design around.

At least that's my take on the whole thing. ;)
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #150 on: 09/21/2005 05:42 pm »
Lockheed are no longer favorites now given they have to change their design to the favored Apollo on Steriods.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #151 on: 09/21/2005 06:07 pm »
Indeed, their original concept is pretty much out of consideration. But, I don't think the official announcement of a capsule based architecture on Monday, was the first they heard of the plans. There has been leaks of an Apollo like design for several months now, and I'm sure they got a heads up.

I wouldn't count them out entirely just yet.  

BTW: Does anyone know the timetable that the winning design will be chosen? Thanks in advance.
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Offline SequencOr

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #153 on: 09/21/2005 09:22 pm »
Quick vote polls hardy have a scientific method to them ... and are therefore, are not very accurate.
Mr. Griffin said it best when asked a question about NASA and space priorities on 'Meet The Press':

Well, when you poll and ask the question that way, you can get almost any answer you like.  It's very close to those, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" questions.  If I ask the question in a different way, I might get a very different answer.  The way I would ask it is, "NASA will spend about 5 percent or less of the money which is spent on national defense each year for the next 20 years.  What would you like to see done with that money.  Given that we're going to spend that money on the American space program, what would you like to see done with it?" and then list various options.  "Returning to the moon, eventually going to Mars, exploring the asteroids and other planets, or would you rather that the United States space program be confined to lower-Earth orbit as we have been for the last 30 years?"  And I strongly suspect that if confronted with choices, if confronted with the knowledge that we're going to be spending money on space and confronted with choices about where we should spend that money, that those poll results would change dramatically.

The question applied mainly to setting aside money for a Mars mission -- but the principal still holds with any question.

In general, as an American, I believe that the American public support their space program.
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Offline gladiator1332

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #154 on: 09/21/2005 09:24 pm »
Not bad, but those numbers could have been better had they had better timing. With Katrina and another hurricane on the way, I don't think the general public really cares about rockets to the Moon right now.

Overall they do care about spaceflight, but at the moment it is not the top priority.

I'm glad Griffin put it in some perspective there. People tend to forget how much we spend on other things. CNN had a very misleading poll question there.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #155 on: 09/22/2005 12:14 am »
That's a misleading poll, but not bad considering how it was questioned - and as above the timing of it.
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Offline Flightstar

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #156 on: 09/22/2005 12:15 am »
Ask the average person on the street if they don't mind 100 billion going on a trip to the moon and you would be happy with that above result.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #157 on: 09/22/2005 02:27 am »
Not bad results considering Katrina, Rita, Iraq, the foundering poll numbers of G.W. Bush, and the slanted nature of the question.

Don't worry, though.  In time, I'm sure the media will beat those numbers even lower.

 ;)


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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #158 on: 09/22/2005 03:07 am »
Quote
realtime - 21/9/2005  10:27 PM

Not bad results considering Katrina, Rita, Iraq, the foundering poll numbers of G.W. Bush, and the slanted nature of the question.

Don't worry, though.  In time, I'm sure the media will beat those numbers even lower.

 ;)

Then again its the media that publish the polls, thus control what you see via their medium.  But I was quite impressed by the good number, based on whats going on now..

We all (based on what has been noted in these forums) know that NASA PR could be a lot better, considering the amount of money that they have at their disposal..

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #159 on: 09/22/2005 03:19 am »
Well, here's an article from the Las Vegas Sun that doesn't suck.  Viva Las Vegas, the town that makes its living on optimism!  :)

http://www.lasvegassun.com/opinion/


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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #160 on: 09/22/2005 03:06 pm »
Quote
realtime - 21/9/2005  10:19 PM

Well, here's an article from the Las Vegas Sun that doesn't suck.  Viva Las Vegas, the town that makes its living on optimism!  :)

http://www.lasvegassun.com/opinion/

Did he break his arm slapping himself on the back for being patriotic?

Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #161 on: 09/22/2005 04:44 pm »
Quote
SequencOr - 21/9/2005  12:05 PM

Well, there's a competition going on, so the actual detailed design of the CEV has the potential to look quite different than what was seen in the presentation

... as long as it fits snug atop the new launch vehicles.

The presentation seen, was a basic but now official template of what NASA is looking for -- and what the competitors have to strive to design around.

At least that's my take on the whole thing. ;)

Then I don't like it.
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Offline Shuttle Man

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #162 on: 09/22/2005 06:29 pm »
I'm not sure what you would like?
Ex-Apollo, waiting for NASA to finish what we started.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #163 on: 09/22/2005 06:53 pm »
Quote
Shuttle Man - 22/9/2005  1:29 PM

I'm not sure what you would like?

Something that doesn't look like they are filming a sequal to Apollo 13 with Tom Hanks.
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Offline gladiator1332

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #164 on: 09/23/2005 02:03 am »
Look, the CEV looks like Apollo for one reason, they are designed to do the same thing. Apollo was the best design to use for a Moon mission, so why not base our new vehicle off the best thing we've had.

Face it, now matter who much you would like a sexy winged spacecraft, it isn't practical to take it to the Moon. Leave the winged things to Rutan, they actually have a purpose there. NASA astronauts, the explorers, do not need the comforts that a winged spacecraft provide. They can deal with the higher g load, and I don't think they really care that they won't be landing on a runway anymore. Now if I'm a tourist, traveling to LEO, paying a couple million, I don't want to be packed into a capsule, I would like a winged vehicle that will take me there in comfort and land me on a runway like a 747.

So its a matter of priorities. One design isn't completely better than the other, they just have their advantages. Winged spacecraft will rule LEO, but outside of that, I don't see winged vehicles haveing much use, especially for transport to a moon base. So go along with what NASA is doing, they are playing the cards correctly, and watch the private industry for the winged spacecraft development.

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #165 on: 09/23/2005 02:31 am »
Quote
gladiator1332 - 22/9/2005  10:03 PM
Face it, now matter who much you would like a sexy winged spacecraft, it isn't practical to take it to the Moon.

100% agree, the Apollo type design works. Just look at just how well Soyuz has done over the years.... Apollo 13, I think just proved how good it was. Before moving back to experimental space vehicles (and the STS is nothng more than a test vehicle - Ref:NASA), that I would like to see happen, we need a basic/proven space vehicle that can be relied on. Who knows, once there is a proven well tested and operational vehicle, why not look at other options. One always needs a backup, we are dealing with human lives, so a rescue is always a needed option.

Again, why fly wings all over the solar system, they have mass and thus will just be dead weight on propulsion consumables.. wings that are designed to fly in the earth atmosphere, but will most likely be useless on any other body in the Solar system.

I would also like to see a move away from the flying brickyard, to something that is not as fragile. A winged space vehicle works in LEO, think the Orbitor has shown that, maybe its just as simple a design change , maybe not expecting it to last 100 flight and placing the crew vehicle in a linear config with its launch vehicle.

Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #166 on: 09/23/2005 11:20 am »
So basically this will be our mode of distance space travel to the moon and then mars for decades to come? They have nothing better on the drawing board?
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Offline Colby

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #167 on: 09/23/2005 11:29 am »
Why send something with wings to Mars?  It makes no sense!
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #168 on: 09/23/2005 11:42 am »
I can't find a picture of it, but it doesn't have wings and looks like it's actually a modern design. It's like flying cone, with a pointy end.
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #169 on: 09/23/2005 11:44 am »
Quote
FransonUK - 23/9/2005  12:42 PM

I can't find a picture of it, but it doesn't have wings and looks like it's actually a modern design. It's like flying cone, with a pointy end.

DC-XA?
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Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #170 on: 09/23/2005 11:56 am »
Yeah, I think it was just like that, if not that. I mean at least that looks modern and appears to have more space!
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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #171 on: 09/23/2005 12:10 pm »
More space for propellant...you're looking at a flying fuel tank like the VentureStar I'm afriad.
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Offline Chris SF

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #172 on: 09/23/2005 02:54 pm »
That's a cool ship, what happened to it?

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #173 on: 09/23/2005 04:04 pm »
Quote
Chris SF - 23/9/2005  3:54 PM

That's a cool ship, what happened to it?

A DC-X test vehicle was built and flew a number of flights, until it crashed and was destroyed when a landing leg failed to deploy.  The program was then abandoned.

Offline SequencOr

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #174 on: 09/23/2005 05:51 pm »
Although the craft will be Apollo-like in design, the CEV will be 18 feet in diameter and three times larger than the old Apollo.

I'm pretty sure that this graphic is to scale -- but it appears like the capsule has the potential to have a fairly comfortable size area. Maybe not as much as the orbiter crew cabin, but nevertheless, quite larger than Apollo.

http://www.safesimplesoon.com/assets/images/144lowres/CommonHardware.jpg


perhaps something similar to this?....
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b88/MRMRadioFlyer/capsule.jpg
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Offline Bruce H

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #175 on: 09/23/2005 06:34 pm »
The SLDV Heavy Lift is actually taller than a Saturn V. That will be some sight!

Offline kraisee

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #176 on: 09/25/2005 09:18 am »
Quote
FransonUK - 23/9/2005  7:20 AM

So basically this will be our mode of distance space travel to the moon and then mars for decades to come? They have nothing better on the drawing board?

Franson, why so down-in-the-dumps pessimistic?   Being a Brit myself, I know how the weather there can get you down, but cheer up man!   This is actually good, sensible stuff if you look at it with the right perspective  :)

We need to remember that the "Crew Exploration Vehicle" is actually not one single vehicle, but a range of different "modules" designed for different tasks.   What we're looking at in this recent presentation is the first example of "one" CEV craft, not "the only" CEV craft.

The CEV Type I (for want of a much better name!) is not planned to go anywhere other than to Earth and lunar orbit.

CEV Type I has the role of just launching crews, rendezvousing with vessels in space, and recovering crews safely back to Earth.   For that role, you have to admit, the CEV Type I is very well suited, yes?

CEV Type I has a few handy extras thrown in (lets call it the 'sport package'!) which make it useful as a return-vehicle for missions to our closest neighbour.   This extra functionality at this stage saves a lot of time and money instead of having to develop another module for that job too.

Bottom line:
- It uses the simplest and safest shape of all - the conical capsule - which has the benefit of having proven itself in multiple manned missions already and an enormous amount of existing historical test data.
- It will use modern expertise in materials and technology to make it.
- The simpler it is; the less it will cost to develop - in both money and time.
- The internal volume is very similar to Shuttle's Crew Compartment - which is currently good enough for 7 people on a two week mission.
- With ~36 man-days of supplies, it will support crew of 6 to the ISS, or crew of 4 to the moon, including spare emergency reserves.
- Can be left unattended in space for ~6 months.
- Has propulsion capacity to return from lunar orbit unassisted.
- Because it will be replaced fairly frequently, evolutionary developments can be designed in to each model extending its capabilities each time it is replaced (***).
- $100m per flight, compared to Shuttle's $700m.

Basically, CEV Type I will be good to carry-out all the LEO repair & maintenance missions, re-supply and crew-change for station and even has sufficient spare capacity to act as the return vehicle from our closest neighbour, yet it should be significantly less expensive to operate than Shuttle or Apollo was.

But CEV Type I won't ever be sent to Mars.

CEV Type I simply is not the right module for such a mission. No one should expect it to be.    CEV Type I would be used to launch the departing crew to rendezvous with a far larger vessel designed for the Mars run - this larger vessel would also be a "Crew Exploration Vehicle", but it would be the CEV Type II, the bigger-brother to CEV Type-I, but without the means to land anywhere.

CEV Type II would probably be assembled in LEO with all the propulsion, stores, hydroponics, habitation sub-sections needed for the long-duration Mars missions.   It would also take a Mars Lander with it and would 'launch' from LEO.   Some of the Mk II's sub-sections could possibly be reused on multiple missions, like most of CEV Type I's systems are planned to be re-used.

When a Mars mission crew return, CEV Type I would be launched again to bring the crew safely home.   Don't expect CEV Type I as we see it to have any other role for any Mars mission - it won't.


*** NOTE:
All of the current details for CEV Type I are based on the very first derivative to fly.   Because these vehicles will be replaced after a finite number of missions (10 or less) they will also evolve in their designs - something Shuttle could not really do easily, but which happened a great deal on the earlier capsule vehicles.   The first generation of these moon-bound vehicle will be improved upon as lessons are learned.

Remember how different the Apollo 11 mission was from Apollo 17?   The first mission was Armstrong and Aldrin, with a total EVA time on the moon of just 2hrs 31mins and a total distance traversed of about 250meters.

But a mere six missions later on Apollo 17, Cernan and Schmitt spent 22 hours walking outside, and travelled about 30km in that time!   Fundamentally they used the same spacecraft on both missions - just 17's was an improved, evolved, version.

The initial missions to the moon will be designed to just make sure things are safe and that they can do landings on the moon again.   It will be the task of the missions after that first return which will develop the real capabilities we want up there, and those will use evolutionary variants of these spacecraft with far greater capacity and resources.
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Offline FransonUK

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #177 on: 09/25/2005 02:32 pm »
Actually, I'm a woman :)

Is it really safe coming back to Earth and hoping the paracutes open? Didn't that fail only recently with that probe which a helicopter was going to scoop it up?
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Offline kraisee

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #178 on: 09/25/2005 09:23 pm »
Quote
FransonUK - 25/9/2005  10:32 AM

Actually, I'm a woman :)

Is it really safe coming back to Earth and hoping the paracutes open? Didn't that fail only recently with that probe which a helicopter was going to scoop it up?

First, my oops! :)

Second, yes actually - that probe didn't have a backup system for releasing the 'chutes, nor any people onboard with a manual release lever as a third tier 'chute release system.

There will be three main 'chutes too - but only two are necessary for a safe landing.   The third is a backup.

Mind you I had the idea of designing the Launch Escape System as four small SRB's strapped directly on the angled side of an Apollo Capsule.   They could be retained all the way through landing so they could be used as emergency retro rockets in case of multiple 'chute failure and hopefully make the final impact (in water) slow enough to be survivable.   Just an idle thought...
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Offline Colby

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #179 on: 09/25/2005 11:06 pm »

Quote
Mind you I had the idea of designing the Launch Escape System as four small SRB's strapped directly on the angled side of an Apollo Capsule. They could be retained all the way through landing so they could be used as emergency retro rockets in case of multiple 'chute failure and hopefully make the final impact (in water) slow enough to be survivable. Just an idle thought...

I think that is a very good idea, and it may have future implications in spacecraft design. The LES would serve a dual purpose. One problem would be the volume of these rockets and its integration into the capsule without compromising its aerodynamics and/or its reentry heat shield.  Still, it seems workable.

Colby

Offline kraisee

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #180 on: 09/25/2005 11:40 pm »
Quote
Colby - 25/9/2005  7:06 PM

Quote
Mind you I had the idea of designing the Launch Escape System as four small SRB's strapped directly on the angled side of an Apollo Capsule. They could be retained all the way through landing so they could be used as emergency retro rockets in case of multiple 'chute failure and hopefully make the final impact (in water) slow enough to be survivable. Just an idle thought...

I think that is a very good idea, and it may have future implications in spacecraft design. The LES would serve a dual purpose. One problem would be the volume of these rockets and its integration into the capsule without compromising its aerodynamics and/or its reentry heat shield.  Still, it seems workable.


I imagined them as a series of four (perhaps six or eight depending on perfomance) fairly thick 'veins' running down the sides of the capsule, with tapered ends top and bottom, and probably with blow-off covers at the bottom.   Here's a picture of what I had in mind at the time (with a crew of 11!):

http://65.33.118.177:8081/Public/Proposal/Capsule_Concepts_1.jpg">

I also had an idea, based on the T-Space CEV shape, which used a set of six SRB's mounted inside the Service Module.   This would allow you to use the CEV as the ascent module of a Lunar lander, while offering abort modes at every point of the flight.

A tunnel ran from the CEV capsule back through the center of the SM (which might also allow access inside the SM for emergency repairs perhaps?) and down into a large habitat/lander descent stage below that, but that was really designed for use on Mars.   Imagine it as a three-module DC-X, with lander, ascent booster/SM and CEV atop. Here:

http://65.33.118.177:8081/Public/Proposal/Mars_Lander_Concept_1.jpg">

Okay, that's probably now 4c from me... ;)
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Offline Avron

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #181 on: 09/26/2005 12:39 am »
Looks a little top heavy?

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #182 on: 09/26/2005 02:46 am »
50t (metric?) dry weight total, 135t loaded.

If the CEV and service module (25t) came up on a 5-seg SRB stick, the hab and fuel (110t) would just fit on a Magnum or Longfellow.

What's the mission profile look like for this bad boy?


Offline kraisee

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #183 on: 09/26/2005 03:10 am »
Quote
realtime - 25/9/2005  10:46 PM

50t (metric?) dry weight total, 135t loaded.

If the CEV and service module (25t) came up on a 5-seg SRB stick, the hab and fuel (110t) would just fit on a Magnum or Longfellow.

What's the mission profile look like for this bad boy?

I have no clue! :)

That was just me messing about one Saturday afternoon with a drawing package and a head full of ideas to see if I could come up with something "interesting".   All I know is that if those mass figures could be met, it could get into LEO and I figured it had enough fuel to probably get to the moon.

It's just blue-sky thinking stuff for now.   It came originally from a profile I was building for a single-vehicle trip which could leave a large hab on the surface for use again, later.   The LV I was planning to use was basically Longfellow, but with four SRB's instead of two.   That configuration can put 200+ tons into LEO.

In the end I figured that an upscale variant might be better suited to a Mars mission than Lunar, and I just haven't had time to go off and re-develop it for that yet.

But there are some cool bits in there which might be useful.
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Offline realtime

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #184 on: 10/09/2005 06:43 pm »
Interorbital Systems has a design with escape rockets mounted along the sides, too.  Liquid fueled, though.  Crew of 5.  Forward docking hatch on the centerline.

http://www.interorbital.com/Neptune%20Page_1.htm

Forgot about this thread until I saw the IOS site.


Offline kraisee

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #185 on: 10/10/2005 01:47 am »
Quote
realtime - 9/10/2005  2:43 PM

Interorbital Systems has a design with escape rockets mounted along the sides, too.  Liquid fueled, though.  Crew of 5.  Forward docking hatch on the centerline.

http://www.interorbital.com/Neptune%20Page_1.htm

Forgot about this thread until I saw the IOS site.

Interesting design there, thanks.

Not sure about liquid fuelled though.   Cryo propellants slowly evaporate off during a mission's duration and result in the quantity reducing significantly.   With solids you can retain the same fuel throughout the entire mission duration, which could give you abort capability throughout the entire flight, right through to using them as an emergency braking system during landing if the chutes aren't working quite right.   And solids are fundamentally a lot simpler with far fewer components to go wrong.
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Offline realtime

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #186 on: 10/10/2005 02:08 am »
I agree.  You want reliability in that situation.  However...

Don't laugh:  Would it be possible to dual-purpose liquid escape rockets as part of the RCS system?  Seems like they could do pitch and yaw.  They'd need something more for roll.  

It's a goofy idea -- there's probably a good engineering reason or three why it won't work, but it sure would be nice to get some use out of the things on orbit.


Offline publiusr

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RE: ESAS Presentation Live update thread
« Reply #187 on: 11/02/2005 10:27 pm »
Interorbitals' Neptune is a lot like Sea Dragon. Bill Sprague wasn't the only ones to work with Truax on big pressure feds.

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