Author Topic: General SETI Thread  (Read 7930 times)

Offline Dao Angkan

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I would respectfully disagree that politics is a driver of intelligence! :D

I know you say it in jest, but it was a good point ... something I hadn't considered before. Politics could well be a driver of evolution. Intelligence is extremely expensive, a bit like a peacock's feathers. In many species power is the main driver of sexual selection, and we even see that today, where physically old and unfit politicians in positions of power still have sexual relations with young, fit, and healthy members of the opposite sex who are attracted to them solely through power.

That's not a commentary on life, just an analysis on how intelligence could be sexually selected for, and how politics could potentially exaggerate that.

Online KelvinZero

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I would respectfully disagree that politics is a driver of intelligence! :D

I know you say it in jest, but it was a good point ... something I hadn't considered before. Politics could well be a driver of evolution. Intelligence is extremely expensive, a bit like a peacock's feathers. In many species power is the main driver of sexual selection, and we even see that today, where physically old and unfit politicians in positions of power still have sexual relations with young, fit, and healthy members of the opposite sex who are attracted to them solely through power.

That's not a commentary on life, just an analysis on how intelligence could be sexually selected for, and how politics could potentially exaggerate that.
It isn't really my idea, just something I keep hearing. "Politics" might not be exactly the right word. I think for a while there was an almost-assumption that the evolution of intelligence was all about tool-making but I think that has gone out of favour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_human_intelligence#Models

Offline Dao Angkan

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I would respectfully disagree that politics is a driver of intelligence! :D

I know you say it in jest, but it was a good point ... something I hadn't considered before. Politics could well be a driver of evolution. Intelligence is extremely expensive, a bit like a peacock's feathers. In many species power is the main driver of sexual selection, and we even see that today, where physically old and unfit politicians in positions of power still have sexual relations with young, fit, and healthy members of the opposite sex who are attracted to them solely through power.

That's not a commentary on life, just an analysis on how intelligence could be sexually selected for, and how politics could potentially exaggerate that.
It isn't really my idea, just something I keep hearing. "Politics" might not be exactly the right word. I think for a while there was an almost-assumption that the evolution of intelligence was all about tool-making but I think that has gone out of favour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_human_intelligence#Models

Right, this is how I assume intelligence evolved in humans ... to cope with inter-social relations. What I hadn't previously considered was that evolution would favour those "best" at politics. It actually seems obvious now, any technologically advanced civilisation is likely to be "political", or at least hierarchical, as long as they have sexual selection.

Edit: So it might be wise to consider any E.T.s as being potentially deceptive, at least evolution would suggest that they may well be.
« Last Edit: 10/21/2017 12:59 AM by Dao Angkan »

Offline DarkenedOne

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Personally I doubt we will discover aliens by listening in our their communications.  There are a number of assumptions regarding extraterrestrial civilizations that the SETI approach is based on that are probably simply not true.   

1. When they say broadcasting civilizations they do not mean civilizations like our own.  I did the calculation once to determine at what distance would we be able to detect a civilization just like our own.  Even for the large dishes like those in the Deep Space Network it turns out to be less than one light year.  The assumption SETI makes is that advanced civilizations will be broadcasting signals millions of times more powerful than signals we broadcast.   

2.  The next assumption is that aliens would be using broadcasts for communication in the first place.  Broadcasting is an incredibly inefficient method of communication.  If you any idea as to where your target is then you will send a directed signal to that target.  Our communications system has gotten more and more efficient by sending data in narrower and narrower beams.  Narrower beams drives you toward higher frequencies.   Higher frequencies also allow you to communicate more data.  That is the fundamental reason why you see our communication systems moving up the EM spectrum over time.  This leads to the third major assumption.

3.   It is highly unlikely that aliens would be using radio waves to communicate at all.  They are enormously inefficient at interstellar distances.  Given how we have been moving up the EM spectrum to achieve greater efficiency in our communications we can safely assume that more advanced civilizations have already gone through this evolution.  They are probably using something like gamma ray lasers to communicate.  They might even have something even better based on physics that we do not understand yet.
With that I will leave you with this image.

Offline Star One

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Aliens may be more like us than we think

Quote
Hollywood films and science fiction literature fuel the belief that aliens are monster-like beings, who are very different to humans. But new research suggests that we could have more in common with our extra-terrestrial neighbours, than initially thought.

In a new study published in the International Journal of Astrobiology scientists from the University of Oxford show for the first time how evolutionary theory can be used to support alien predictions and better understand their behaviour. They show that aliens are potentially shaped by the same processes and mechanisms that shaped humans, such as natural selection.

The theory supports the argument that foreign life forms undergo natural selection, and are like us, evolving to be fitter and stronger over time.

Sam Levin, a researcher in Oxford’s Department of Zoology, said: ‘A fundamental task for astrobiologists (those who study life in the cosmos) is thinking about what extra-terrestrial life might be like. But making predictions about aliens is hard. We only have one example of life - life on Earth -- to extrapolate from. Past approaches in the field of astrobiology have been largely mechanistic, taking what we see on Earth, and what we know about chemistry, geology, and physics to make predictions about aliens.

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-10-31-aliens-may-be-more-us-we-think#

Offline missinglink

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If an emissary from an extraterrestrial civilization came to Earth and wanted to remain incognito while observing our progress towards the stars, what cover would it choose?

Running a website dedicated to exploration of outer space would not be the worst way to collect intelligence, for evaluation and scheduled reports to send "home".  ;)

Offline QuantumG

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If an emissary from an extraterrestrial civilization came to Earth and wanted to remain incognito while observing our progress towards the stars, what cover would it choose?

Running a website dedicated to exploration of outer space would not be the worst way to collect intelligence, for evaluation and scheduled reports to send "home".  ;)

Well, I'm pretty sure Chris has been to New York, but he didn't overstay his visa waiver... I don't think.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline Star One

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What Happens If China Makes First Contact?

As America has turned away from searching for extraterrestrial intelligence, China has built the world’s largest radio dish for precisely that purpose.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/12/what-happens-if-china-makes-first-contact/544131/

Online Alpha_Centauri

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Re: General SETI Thread
« Reply #48 on: 11/09/2017 12:16 AM »
Doesn't matter, all the aliens I've seen speak English.

Offline cosmicvoid

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Re: General SETI Thread
« Reply #49 on: 11/10/2017 11:37 PM »
Doesn't matter, all the aliens I've seen speak English.

Except for the ones in Arrival (2106), they speak in circles.
Infiinity or bust.

Offline Lar

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Re: General SETI Thread
« Reply #50 on: 11/11/2017 11:41 AM »
Doesn't matter, all the aliens I've seen speak English.

Except for the ones in Arrival (2106), they speak in circles.

Not to spoil the plot of that movie if you haven't seen it[1] but I don't think there's a sequel in 2106 :)

1 - anyone interested in aliens, language, or diplomacy should see it.
« Last Edit: 11/11/2017 11:46 AM by Lar »
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline Star One

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Re: General SETI Thread
« Reply #51 on: 11/11/2017 07:52 PM »
Doesn't matter, all the aliens I've seen speak English.

Except for the ones in Arrival (2106), they speak in circles.

Yeah thanks for ruining the film for me with your inconsiderate post.

Offline Lar

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Re: General SETI Thread
« Reply #52 on: 11/12/2017 12:10 AM »
Doesn't matter, all the aliens I've seen speak English.

Except for the ones in Arrival (2106), they speak in circles.

Yeah thanks for ruining the film for me with your inconsiderate post.
Seriously?
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline QuantumG

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Re: General SETI Thread
« Reply #53 on: 11/12/2017 12:17 AM »
Yeah thanks for ruining the film for me with your inconsiderate post.
Seriously?

You're history's greatest monster.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline vapour_nudge

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Re: General SETI Thread
« Reply #54 on: 11/12/2017 12:25 AM »
I watched that last week. If someone pays you to watch that movie, you're being ripped off.

Offline Lar

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Re: General SETI Thread
« Reply #55 on: 11/12/2017 12:48 AM »
I watched that last week. If someone pays you to watch that movie, you're being ripped off.

We're a bit off topic (and maybe we start a thread for it?) but I have to disagree. I found it very entrancing, well made, thought provoking and a thoroughly great movie. Rotten Tomatoes agrees, as do many critics, some going so far as to say it was 2016's best movie. It's not blasters and explosions, it is very cerebral. But worth your attention. (and I liked Passengers too so ...)

YMMV.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline Star One

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General SETI Thread
« Reply #56 on: 11/12/2017 08:35 AM »
Yeah thanks for ruining the film for me with your inconsiderate post.
Seriously?

You're history's greatest monster.

Just for the sake of clarity not everyone can see a film straightaway as it usually takes a while for a film to get onto terrestrial TV over here in the UK. I do have Netflix but it’s not on the UK schedule and I also have SKY satellite but not the film channels due to cost. But that said it was a bit of a silly comment I suppose by me.
« Last Edit: 11/12/2017 08:40 AM by Star One »

Offline vapour_nudge

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Re: General SETI Thread
« Reply #57 on: 11/12/2017 08:53 AM »
I liked Passengers too. My wife liked it too. But we both fell asleep watching Arrival. I understand that not everyone would feel the same.  Anyway back on topic. Sorry all

Offline John Santos

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Re: General SETI Thread
« Reply #58 on: 11/12/2017 09:41 AM »
Yeah thanks for ruining the film for me with your inconsiderate post.
Seriously?

You're history's greatest monster.

Just for the sake of clarity not everyone can see a film straightaway as it usually takes a while for a film to get onto terrestrial TV over here in the UK. I do have Netflix but it’s not on the UK schedule and I also have SKY satellite but not the film channels due to cost. But that said it was a bit of a silly comment I suppose by me.
You probably didn't notice the typo (since trimmed) in the original post.  Unless you're a time-travelling alien.

Offline Star One

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Re: General SETI Thread
« Reply #59 on: 11/12/2017 10:04 AM »
Yeah thanks for ruining the film for me with your inconsiderate post.
Seriously?

You're history's greatest monster.

Just for the sake of clarity not everyone can see a film straightaway as it usually takes a while for a film to get onto terrestrial TV over here in the UK. I do have Netflix but it’s not on the UK schedule and I also have SKY satellite but not the film channels due to cost. But that said it was a bit of a silly comment I suppose by me.
You probably didn't notice the typo (since trimmed) in the original post.  Unless you're a time-travelling alien.

I am sticking to blaming my iPhone which seems to have issues with its spell correct.

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