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bobthemonkey
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« on: 07/02/2007 05:02 PM » |
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Europe mulls human launch system By Jonathan Amos Science reporter, BBC News The study will look at what could follow the Soyuz system Industrial groups in Europe are about to look in detail at ideas for a new launch system to put humans in space. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6260724.stm
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« on: 07/02/2007 05:02 PM » |
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ShuttleDiscovery
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« Reply #1 on: 07/02/2007 05:18 PM » |
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I just saw that. I reckon this is just the same as ACTS, but they have called it CSTS which is copying the STS acronym a bit. It gets really annoying when things about the ACTS have been discussed on this website and others for ages, and its only now that the BBC have realised they haven't had a space article recently and do one on this months later! :angry:
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wannamoonbase
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« Reply #2 on: 07/02/2007 05:21 PM » |
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Question: Could/Would the ATV Propulsion module of the ATV be used 'Off the Shelf' as the propulsion module for a human rated craft? Looks like they were already thinking and planning along those lines. If so that would certainly reduce the amount of work needed.
If Russia wants to improve or upgrade the Soyuz they could take a continuous development approach and upgrade then fly upgrade individual components gradually and eventually end up with the hardware needed to have a more modern, reliable and safer vehicle. However the size of Soyuz is a limitation and that cramped little thing needs to be bigger.
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PhalanxTX
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« Reply #3 on: 07/02/2007 05:27 PM » |
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I wish them luck. More development and friendly competition can only be good for the US spaceflight program and, more generally, human space exploration.
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meiza
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« Reply #4 on: 07/02/2007 05:48 PM » |
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More info, comprehensive roadmaps of spacecraft together with launchers and the destinations and applications would be very nice.
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Mogster
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« Reply #5 on: 07/02/2007 07:15 PM » |
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The bottom line with all Euro space efforts is the lack of political will and therefore money. ATV's budget is around 1bn, for manned capability someones going to have to pay how much more, 5x? 10x? I don't see those sorts of funds being made available. Unfortunately I don't see ESA's manned spaceflight program getting beyond the paper stage any time soon.
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wannamoonbase
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« Reply #6 on: 07/02/2007 08:36 PM » |
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Mogster - 2/7/2007 3:15 PM
The bottom line with all Euro space efforts is the lack of political will and therefore money. ATV's budget is around 1bn, for manned capability someones going to have to pay how much more, 5x? 10x? I don't see those sorts of funds being made available. Unfortunately I don't see ESA's manned spaceflight program getting beyond the paper stage any time soon. Although, if you wanted something highly visible to show off your technical ability and to make the citizens feel proud and confident (yadda yadda) then perhaps providing a Euro Rogers so you can get more Euros might not be a bad plan. If you pooled the ESA assets (with ATV hardware) and the Russian assets and abilities would you be able to pull it off? Separately they are both more limited but together the limitations are likely political and not financial or technical. Europe designing and launching their own Euronauts into space would certainly solidify a common European identity and benefits the position of the ESA.
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vt_hokie
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« Reply #7 on: 07/03/2007 01:25 AM » |
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The EU economy has got to be much stronger than ours at this point. Surely Europe has the resources and capability to develop a human spaceflight capability.
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neviden
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« Reply #8 on: 07/03/2007 05:36 AM » |
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wannamoonbase - 2/7/2007 7:21 PM
However the size of Soyuz is a limitation and that cramped little thing needs to be bigger. Why? Less mass you have, cheaper rocket you can use to launch it. Less mass you have, less propellant you need to move things around. It does what it is designed to do (bring people to LEO and back). Actually, it was designed with Moon in mind. It could bring people from the Moon. The Reentry module may be cramped, but they do have extra living space in orbital module to use once in space, so they can stretch out. Soyuz TMA weighs only 7.220 kg and it puts 3 people into LEO. Make its reentry module a little bigger, and you can cram more people inside of it. Put improved (heavier) life support inside and you can stay more time in space. Upgraded Soyuz 2-1b can put 8.500 – 9.200 kg into LEO, so this can be done.
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whitewatcher
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« Reply #9 on: 07/03/2007 07:16 AM » |
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I guess he was referring to the 3-person capability. The crew capacity could be doubled while increasing costs only by 30-60%. There's a market for space tourism.
This could make space trips more affordable for both, tourists and space agencies.
2008, there's a ESA ministerial conference scheduled. The'll decide about the bucks. I think I remember CSTS being on the agenda.
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neviden
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« Reply #10 on: 07/03/2007 11:31 AM » |
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You can double the size of the crew, but you have to make everything either more cramped or you have to use the bigger (more expensive) rocket.
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Mogster
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« Reply #11 on: 07/03/2007 07:44 PM » |
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vt_hokie - 3/7/2007 2:25 AM
The EU economy has got to be much stronger than ours at this point. Surely Europe has the resources and capability to develop a human spaceflight capability. Yes we have the resources but I just don't see the political/public will to spend anything like the money needed. All I see in the UK press is negativity when it comes to spending public money on space technology, and the sums discussed are tiny compared to what would be required to be part of a European manned space program. And then there's the other problem, the 'be part of bit'. Just look at the wrangles and inefficiencies that go on within Airbus, which country pays for what? where's it going to be built? how do we get the bits together after we've built it........ Getting the main European member states to agree on anything is an absolute nightmare. I know I'm being negative but I really don't see a Euro manned spaceflight program getting beyond paper at the moment. People in the UK love the US space program, just look at the heavy UK contribution to this forum, but of course stuff always looks great when you're not paying for it.
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CentEur
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« Reply #12 on: 07/04/2007 07:25 AM » |
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Mogster - 3/7/2007 9:44 PM
Yes we have the resources but I just don't see the political/public will to spend anything like the money needed. All I see in the UK press is negativity when it comes to spending public money on space technology, and the sums discussed are tiny compared to what would be required to be part of a European manned space program. And then there's the other problem, the 'be part of bit'. Just look at the wrangles and inefficiencies that go on within Airbus, which country pays for what? where's it going to be built? how do we get the bits together after we've built it........ Getting the main European member states to agree on anything is an absolute nightmare.
I know I'm being negative but I really don't see a Euro manned spaceflight program getting beyond paper at the moment. People in the UK love the US space program, just look at the heavy UK contribution to this forum, but of course stuff always looks great when you're not paying for it. British opposition is irrelevant to European manned spaceflight programme. European Astronaut Corps members fly regularly into space though there's no British among them. European Columbus laboratory has been built and prepared for flight though there was no British funding. Same for ATV. Whether the EuroSoyuz (or whatever name they call it) will be built or not is independent from British participation too.
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whitewatcher
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« Reply #13 on: 07/04/2007 10:14 AM » |
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neviden - 3/7/2007 1:31 PM
You can double the size of the crew, but you have to make everything either more cramped or you have to use the bigger (more expensive) rocket. Slightly bigger. Size of rocket corresponds to payload mass, not volume. Of course the fairing plays a role .... but a minor one.
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William Barton
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« Reply #14 on: 07/04/2007 12:36 PM » |
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One admittedly far-fetched solution would be to combine the ATV with a Merkur capsule (which already has a heat shield in the hatch). I doubt there are too many flight-ready models laying around in Russia, but at least they're already designed and tested, and have flown in unmanned mode as recently as the 1980s. They were only supposed to be 3-man, but were big enough that, like Apollo, you could squeeze in 2 or 3 more.
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