Author Topic: China to have new rockets  (Read 275721 times)

Offline Satori

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #180 on: 09/28/2013 01:58 PM »
Satory,

Did you went to the technical tour at CALT?

No, I just (re)posted those photos because they were no attached on a previous post.

Offline Comet

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #181 on: 09/28/2013 02:01 PM »
I just came back from China - Will have some pictures and materials from the presentations.

Offline Satori

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #182 on: 09/28/2013 02:08 PM »
I just came back from China - Will have some pictures and materials from the presentations.

That's great!!! We will be expecting those!!!

Offline clongton

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #183 on: 09/28/2013 08:56 PM »
New article on China's study of a heavy-lift rocket equivalent to the SLS Block 2.

The CZ-9 Scheme A reminds me of AJAX. Develop a moderately powered core and wrap it boosters that are/could be extremely useful launchers in their own right. Wouldn't it be a kick in the pants if the Chinese developed and fielded what NASA was unwilling to do?
歡迎月亮美國人。我可以為您提供一些茶嗎?(Welcome to the moon American. May I offer you some tea?)
« Last Edit: 09/28/2013 08:58 PM by clongton »
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Offline heinkel174

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #184 on: 09/29/2013 01:28 AM »
Those pictures are like two years old. Things have changed several times since then.

This week on the IAC 64, the boss of CASC Xu Dazhe made a presentation. It seems that the latest configuration of CZ-9 is now a three stage and half design.

The first two stages are both kerolox while the third stage is hydrolox. Eight double-chamber kerolox engines power the first stage (so the YF-500 seems to shrink further to YF-400). Two single-chamber kerolox engine power the second stage. The third stage engine looks like a vacuum version of YF-77. So YF-220 is gone. 

Liftoff thrust 3000 ton, LEO 100 ton and TLI 35 ton. The figures seem to imply the third stage to do both final orbiting burn and TLI burn like S-IVB.

Offline Lsquirrel

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #185 on: 09/29/2013 01:59 AM »
Those pictures are like two years old. Things have changed several times since then.

This week on the IAC 64, the boss of CASC Xu Dazhe made a presentation. It seems that the latest configuration of CZ-9 is now a three stage and half design.

The first two stages are both kerolox while the third stage is hydrolox. Eight double-chamber kerolox engines power the first stage (so the YF-500 seems to shrink further to YF-400). Two single-chamber kerolox engine power the second stage. The third stage engine looks like a vacuum version of YF-77. So YF-220 is gone. 

Liftoff thrust 3000 ton, LEO 100 ton and TLI 35 ton. The figures seem to imply the third stage to do both final orbiting burn and TLI burn like S-IVB.

the lastest configuration of CZ-9 (IAC2013) is take off  mass about 3000 tons, not Lift off thrust about 3000 tons

Offline clongton

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #186 on: 09/29/2013 12:04 PM »
Two questions:
1. What are the strap-on boosters?
2. Are they actually using fins?
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Online plutogno

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Offline Blackstar

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #188 on: 09/30/2013 07:54 PM »
Development of the LOX/H2 rocket engine in China.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #189 on: 09/30/2013 07:55 PM »
DEVELOPMENT STATUS OF THE CRYOGENIC OXYGEN/HYDROGEN YF-77 ENGINE FOR LONG MARCH 5

Offline Blackstar

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #190 on: 09/30/2013 07:56 PM »
Manned Lunar Launching Mode and the Requirement for Heavy Launch Vehicle

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #191 on: 10/01/2013 03:27 AM »
Manned Lunar Launching Mode and the Requirement for Heavy Launch Vehicle


Thank you Blackstar for the three interesting articles!
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #192 on: 10/01/2013 09:30 AM »
Here's a summary of the Lunar Landing Mode paper. They studied six different modes, all involving rendezvous in low Lunar orbit (LLO). They conclude

Quote
(I) If does not set constraints on the economic and schedule, the direct flight mode is the best choice, and corresponding it need to develop manned heavy launch vehicle with high reliability.
(II) If considering the economy factors and the time limit, the passenger and cargo separated transport mode with rendezvous and docking is appropriate, and it need to develop heavy launch vehicle for cargo.
(III) It is suitable to use the flight mode base on EMLP when a repeatedly perform a manned lunar landing mission is needed.
(IV) In practice, the selection of manned lunar flight mode need to integrated all aspects of constraints and weighed via further analysis and appraisal, and then determined.

With point (III) they don't present any analysis, so I don't know how they came to that conclusion. Here are the different modes. They assume a 20 t crewed vehicle (similar to Orion):

1) 1 Launch Lunar Orbit Rendezvous (LOR) (Apollo Mode)
a) Launch Propulsion Vehicle (PV), Lunar Lander (LL) and Manned Spacecraft (MS) with a single heavy launch vehicle (HLV) into LEO with 60 t trans Lunar injection (TLI) capability.
b) PV performs TLI and separates
c) LL performs LOI
d) LL undocks and lands on Moon
e) LL ascent stage (AS) lifts off and docks with MS
f) LL AS undocks and MS performs trans Earth injection (TEI)
g) MS service module and orbital module separates with landing performed by command module.

2) 2 Launch Earth Orbit Rendezvous (Constellation Mode)
a) Launch LL and propulsion vehicle (PV) into low Earth orbit (LEO) with HLV with 50 t TLI capability.
b) Launch MS into LEO with LV with 20 t capability.
c) MS docks with PV/LL
d) Same as 1(b)-(g)

3) 3 Launch EOR
a) Launch LL and small PV (SPV) into LEO with HLV with 80 t capability.
b) Launch large PV (LPV) into LEO with HLV with 80 t capability.
c) SPV/LL docks to LPV
d) Launch MS into LEO with LV with 20 t capability.
e) MS docks to LPV/SPV/LL
f) LPV peforms partial TLI and separates
g) SPV completes TLI and separates
h) Same as 1(c)-(g)

4) 4 Launch EOR (EELV Mode)
a) Launch LL and SPV into LEO with HLV with 50 t capability.
b) Launch LPV1 into LEO with HLV with 50 t capability.
c) SPV/LL docks to LPV1
d) Launch LPV2 into LEO with HLV with 50 t capability.
c) LPV1/SPV/LL docks to LPV2
d) Launch MS into LEO with LV with 20 t capability.
e) MS docks to LPV1/LPV2/SPV/LL
f) LPV1 peforms partial TLI and separates
g) LPV2 peforms partial TLI and separates
h) SPV completes TLI and separates
i) Same as 1(c)-(g)

5) 2 Launch LOR (Dual SLS Mode)
a) Launch LL and PV1 into LEO with HLV with 40 t TLI capability.
b) PV1 performs TLI and separates
c) LL performs LOI
d) Launch MS and PV2 into LEO with HLV with 30 t TLI capability.
e) PV2 performs TLI and separates
f) MS performs LOI
g) MS docks with LL
h) Sames as 1(d)-(g)

6) 3 Launch EOR and LOR
a) Launch LL and PV1 into LEO with HLV with 40 t TLI capability
b) PV1 performs TLI and separates
c) LL performs LOI
d) Launch PV2 and SPV into LEO with HLV with 40 t TLI capability.
e) Launch MS into LEO with LV with 20 t capability.
f) MS docks to PV2/SPV
g) PV2 performs TLI and separates
h) SPV performs LOI
i) SPV/MS docks with LL
j) LL undocks and lands on Moon
k) LL AS lifts off and docks with SPV/MS
l) LL AS undocks and SPV performs TEI
m) SPV separates from MS
n) MS service module and orbital module separates with landing performed by command module.
« Last Edit: 10/01/2013 09:38 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline a_langwich

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #193 on: 10/05/2013 08:20 PM »
Here's a summary of the Lunar Landing Mode paper. They studied six different modes, all involving rendezvous in low Lunar orbit (LLO).

Interesting.  I don't think option 4, which you've marked as "EELV," is truly that.  Is a 50 ton LEO considered EELV?  It seems these authors didn't consider a fuel depot plus multiple small launches approach.   I would have thought that might be a natural fit for the Chinese program.  On the one hand, they don't have multiple businesses able to vie for launch services (yet); but on the other, it would allow them to skip the development of the HLV, drive up production of their existing launchers, and focus on the other elements (landers etc) of the mission.

I guess national prestige, building the biggest skyscraper, building the fastest supercomputer, building aircraft carriers, building the biggest rockets, trumps such mundane practicality?

Of course NASA is doing it, but many people would say it doesn't make sense even for them.  And they, unlike China, have an existing industrial base which was building 8.4m tanks and monster SRBs and 2.3 MN hydrolox engines, capabilities which might be uneconomic but leaders were unwilling to lose. 

Offline Blackstar

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #194 on: 10/05/2013 11:38 PM »
Manned Lunar Launching Mode and the Requirement for Heavy Launch Vehicle


Thank you Blackstar for the three interesting articles!

Anybody wants any more, go see if you can find the program on line. If you give me the number of the presentation or paper you are interested in, I will post it here.

Offline Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #195 on: 11/16/2013 11:46 AM »
Well, the long time mystery of how the small CZ-6 rocket is launched has finally been solved - as expected a mobile launch platform is used for transportation and power support on the launch pad.  ;D

I believe the photos also confirms my long time suspicion that the new launch site at Taiyuan located at 38° 52' 5" N, 111° 34' 49" E is for the CZ-6.

Source
Chinese spaceflight is a cosmic riddle wrapped in a galactic mystery inside an orbital enigma... - (not) Winston Churchill

Online RonM

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #196 on: 11/16/2013 12:08 PM »
Of course NASA is doing it, but many people would say it doesn't make sense even for them.  And they, unlike China, have an existing industrial base which was building 8.4m tanks and monster SRBs and 2.3 MN hydrolox engines, capabilities which might be uneconomic but leaders were unwilling to lose.

Depending on what the government is planning to do in the future, they might not want to lose an industrial capability.

In a non spaceflight example, at the end of the Cold War the Navy no longer needed the new very sophisticated and very expensive Seawolf attack sub, but they built three of them anyway. If they had completely cancelled the program, then ten years later when they needed to replace the LA class attack subs, there wouldn't be anyone around who could still do it.

That said, maybe we don't really need the SLS, but Congress thinks we do.

Getting back to China, they obviously think they need new rockets and new capabilities. Good for them. If Congress would let NASA work with China, it could be good for everyone.


Online edkyle99

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #197 on: 11/16/2013 03:44 PM »
LM-MLV launcher overview (see slide 29) and Range Safety Analysis when launched from Taiyuan launch center with QB50 cubesats (see slide 30).

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/pres/stsc2013/tech-26E.pdf

Interesting that the currently available version only goes to Page 20 and has no slides of this solid fuel rocket.  Does anyone still have the original?

 - Ed Kyle

Offline limen4

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #198 on: 11/16/2013 09:54 PM »
LM-MLV launcher overview (see slide 29) and Range Safety Analysis when launched from Taiyuan launch center with QB50 cubesats (see slide 30).

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/pdf/pres/stsc2013/tech-26E.pdf

Interesting that the currently available version only goes to Page 20 and has no slides of this solid fuel rocket.  Does anyone still have the original?

 - Ed Kyle

See attached. BTW QB50 is now planned for launch with Cyclone-4 from Alcantara. LM-MLV only back-up.

Offline luhai167

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #199 on: 11/29/2013 06:41 PM »

I guess national prestige, building the biggest skyscraper, building the fastest supercomputer, building aircraft carriers, building the biggest rockets, trumps such mundane practicality?

Of course NASA is doing it, but many people would say it doesn't make sense even for them.  And they, unlike China, have an existing industrial base which was building 8.4m tanks and monster SRBs and 2.3 MN hydrolox engines, capabilities which might be uneconomic but leaders were unwilling to lose.

One thing I keep hearing in China is "Only drives technology development like a large project". I believe in this case, they want the HLV more than they want to go to moon. Going to the moon is just a good excuse to doing. (Think about all the other things that can be done with a HLV, going to the moon is means rather than an end.)

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