Flight crew assignments

[Rocket Science]

Just thinking how many Shuttle Commanders have been retiring/moving into management of late. Here's a quick list of Commanders since RTF:

STS-114 (Collins) - Retired
STS-121 (Lindsey) - Retired
STS-115 (Jett) - Inactive (Management)
STS-116 (Polansky) - Retired
STS-117 (Sturckow) - Active
STS-118 (S. Kelly) - Active
STS-120 (Melroy) - Retired
STS-122 (Frick) - Inactive (Management)
STS-123 (Gorie) - Retired
STS-124 (M. Kelly) - Retired
STS-126 (Ferguson) - Retired
STS-119 (Archambault) - Inactive (Management)
STS-125 (Altman) - Retired
STS-127 (Polansky) - Retired
STS-128 (Sturckow) - Active
STS-129 (Hobaugh) - Retired
STS-130 (Zamka) - Inactive (Management)
STS-131 (Poindexter) - Deceased
STS-132 (Ham) - Retired
STS-133 (Lindsey) - Retired
STS-134 (M. Kelly) - Retired
STS-135 (Ferguson) - Retired

That leaves only two Shuttle Commanders since RTF (Sturckow and S. Kelly) currently on active duty. Lots of experience gone.

So you think they might know something Pete?

Not to answer for Pete, but addressing the pair of messages, yes: they must have realized that the end of Shuttle missions meant the end of Shuttle commands.  During the Shuttle era, there were always two general types of pilots in the astronaut office . . . those that were there to fly higher, faster, further in the most advanced aerospace vehicle going, and those that were interested in the larger goals of space exploration and exploitation.

Not to characterize any of the commanders listed, but surely that was a factor in some departures -- and I know that at least a couple of these folks simply didn't want to commit to long-duration ISS assignments.  Age is also a factor: many of these commanders would be in their fifties or even late fifties by the time any commercial or Orion missions flew.  There are physical issues, too:  Altman was too tall for an ISS mission. 

And at least 3-4 of the departed are working on commercial post-Shutle programs, either the company side (Ferguson, Lindsey) or NASA (Jett, Archambault).

Michael Cassutt

You made all good points Michael.  My comment to Pete was a bit of a rhetorical one.

~Robert

[orbiter62995]

Note the recent Revin-Valkov move.

Michael Cassutt

Is there any known reason for the Valkov-Revin switchoff?

[anik]

Is there any known reason for the Valkov-Revin switchoff?

Health problems.

[anik]

With Polansky's retirement, anyone know who will be named Director of Operations at the Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Center in Star City, Russia?

Peggy Whitson has told that it will be Mark Vande Hei.

[Skylon]

To be fair about the retired shuttle CDR list, compare it to say, the number of Apollo CDR's remaining a year after Skylab 4, when just ASTP was left to fly - February 1975. The time frame of 1968 - 1975 is also comparable to the RTF period - 2005 - 2012.

Apollo 7 - Schirra - retired, 1969
Apollo 8 - Borman - retired, 1970
Apollo 9 - McDivitt - retired, 1972
Apollo 10 - Stafford - active
Apollo 11 - Armstrong - retired, 1971
Apollo 12 - Conrad - retired, 1974 (he'd have literally just retired if this were Feb '74).
Apollo 13 - Lovell - retired, 1973
Apollo 14 - Shepard - management
Apollo 15 - Scott - management (note, he would have been willing to fly on the shuttle had he not been shunted to management)
Apollo 16 - Young - active
Apollo 17 - Cernan - management
Skylab 2 - Conrad - retired, 1974 (repeat)
Skylab 3 - Bean - active
Skylab 4 - Carr - active (though unlikely to fly again)

So, 2012 - Two Shuttle CDR's remained on the active list, and four were in management (to be fair, I could see Frick or Zamka returning to active depending how NASA's plans go - they are young enough).

In 1974 four Apollo/Skylab CDR's remained active, and two were prime and backup CDR's for the remaining spaceflight - Stafford and Bean on ASTP. Leaving Young and Carr. Three others were in management positions, and one was certain to not fly again (Scott).

So, 2012 - You have six total still at NASA.

1974 - Seven total, still at NASA.

Now, had Apollo, Skylab or something continued how many of these guys honestly would have remained? I'm not sure. I don't think too many more. Its a job that wears down on you physically and emotionally. They also walked on the Moon - what do you do after that? I think the greater loss would be if shuttle PLT's and MS's leave, as did the Apollo CMP's and LMP's. The under-studies as it were. They are younger, meaning more likely to want to fly again and with spaceflight experience to carry over to new programs. A number of Apollo CMP's stuck around (not so much the LMP's, as they walked on the Moon - clearly achieving their professional goals), at least for a few years after ASTP. But gradually, from '75 to '81 you see them slip away until 1981 when only Mattingly, Lousma, Weitz and Brand remained. I hope we don't see the same in shuttle PLT's and MS's. For now at least it seems the 2000 shuttle PLT's are hanging around with a few (Ford, Virts and Wilmore) getting ISS flights. 

[TJL]

With Polansky's retirement, anyone know who will be named Director of Operations at the Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Center in Star City, Russia?

Peggy Whitson has told that it will be Mark Vande Hei.

Thanks, Anik...here is a photo of the TMA-06M crew and the new Director of the Cosmonaut Training Center...

http://www.spacefacts.de/mission/alternate/photo/soyuz-tma-04m_backup_1.jpg

(Photo Courtesy of spacefacts.de)

[Olaf]

With Polansky's retirement, anyone know who will be named Director of Operations at the Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Center in Star City, Russia?

Peggy Whitson has told that it will be Mark Vande Hei.

Thanks, Anik...here is a photo of the TMA-06M crew and the new Director of the Cosmonaut Training Center...

http://www.spacefacts.de/mission/alternate/photo/soyuz-tma-04m_backup_1.jpg

(Photo Courtesy of spacefacts.de)

Good find. Didn´t realize that. But Mr. Vande Hai is only the NASA Director of Operations at the GCTC, not the Director of the center.

[Olaf]

Today there was a welcome ceremony in Star City for the Soyuz TMA-03M crew. In the report about this, Frank DeWinne was mentioned as Director of the European Astronaut Centre. Can anyone confirm this?

[Michael Cassutt]

Today there was a welcome ceremony in Star City for the Soyuz TMA-03M crew. In the report about this, Frank DeWinne was mentioned as Director of the European Astronaut Centre. Can anyone confirm this?

De Winne has been acting head since Tognini's retirement earlier in the year... I don't know if his appointment has been made permanent.

Michael Cassutt

[jacqmans]

Today there was a welcome ceremony in Star City for the Soyuz TMA-03M crew. In the report about this, Frank DeWinne was mentioned as Director of the European Astronaut Centre. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes this is true !

[Olaf]

Today there was a welcome ceremony in Star City for the Soyuz TMA-03M crew. In the report about this, Frank DeWinne was mentioned as Director of the European Astronaut Centre. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes this is true !

Thank you.

[Olaf]

According to information from the NK forum, K. Valkov has left the Cosmonaut group of the TsPK.

[Skylon]

Wasn't sure if this deserved its own thread, but it impact crew assignments:

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Russian_cosmonaut_squad_adds_up_seven_new_members_999.html

It's not so much the fact that seven new Cosmonauts were selected, but what is this part:

"Up to date, twelve cosmonauts have been transferred to the reserve. In August, five more people will be relieved from their military duties. After that, there will be no more people in military ranks but only civilians," the center said.

....

 Roscosmos then announced that only civilian candidates could apply for the cosmonaut positions.

Meanwhile, all cosmonauts were offered to either retire from the Armed Forces or to quit the cosmonaut team. The decision has affected in total about 200 people, including both cosmonauts and workers.

Is this accurate? This seems a little odd, for the Cosmonaut Corps to be totally demilitarized. Also it makes joining the Cosmonaut Corps a more risky proposition, given the attrition rate of Cosmonaut candidates.

[DeanG1967]

To be fair about the retired shuttle CDR list, compare it to say, the number of Apollo CDR's remaining a year after Skylab 4, when just ASTP was left to fly - February 1975. The time frame of 1968 - 1975 is also comparable to the RTF period - 2005 - 2012.

Can we do the same comparison of pilots that never made it to the left seat and see how many of them are still active (e.g. Dutton, etc)?

[Michael Cassutt]

Wasn't sure if this deserved its own thread, but it impact crew assignments:

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Russian_cosmonaut_squad_adds_up_seven_new_members_999.html

It's not so much the fact that seven new Cosmonauts were selected, but what is this part:

"Up to date, twelve cosmonauts have been transferred to the reserve. In August, five more people will be relieved from their military duties. After that, there will be no more people in military ranks but only civilians," the center said.

....

 Roscosmos then announced that only civilian candidates could apply for the cosmonaut positions.

Meanwhile, all cosmonauts were offered to either retire from the Armed Forces or to quit the cosmonaut team. The decision has affected in total about 200 people, including both cosmonauts and workers.

Is this accurate? This seems a little odd, for the Cosmonaut Corps to be totally demilitarized. Also it makes joining the Cosmonaut Corps a more risky proposition, given the attrition rate of Cosmonaut candidates.

Some of this report is inaccurate.  The seven 2010 candidates underwent their final exams July 31-August 1, but only four passed.  Two are being held over for some additional training, and one has to be completely re-examined in October.  (Courtesy of Novosti Kosmonavtiki's site.)

The complete transition of the Gagarin Center to civilian Roskosmos control has been going on for three years -- the cosmonaut teams (Gagarin military and Energiya civilian) were consolidated in early 2011, though Kaleri and Vinogradov remain cosmonauts assigned to Energiya.

Although apparently all of the active duty military officers in the cosmonaut unit will be offered the chance to retire or resign or otherwise transition to civilian status, it is entirely possible, one says, that some may not be hired by Roskosmos.

I don't see how this makes joining the cosmonaut team "risky" -- both military and civilian candidates have failed in the past, and while I haven't sat down to do the figures, my sense is that, historically, the success rate is higher for the civilians.

Michael Cassutt