Author Topic: Don Lind and Tony England  (Read 10573 times)

Offline carmelo

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #20 on: 05/04/2007 12:52 AM »
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qprmeteor - 3/5/2007  10:28 AM

plus an intruiging couple of  photo form 1980 where we see Joe Kerwin and Anna Fisher in Skylab pressure suits, performing an evaluation for a HST repair mission. Interestingly, Kerwin is wearing Rusty Schweikart's suit, while I can't make out whose suit Fisher is wearing....
Wow! you can scan the photo and put here?

Offline qprmeteor

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #21 on: 05/04/2007 12:33 PM »
I'll scan both photos tonight after work!
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: I'm sorry, Fry, but astronomers renamed Uranus in 2620 to end that stupid joke once and for all.
Fry: Oh. What's it called now?
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: Urrectum. Here, let me locate it for you.

Offline qprmeteor

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RE: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #22 on: 05/04/2007 10:38 PM »
As promised, the Kerwin/Fisher photos - sorry about the relatively poor quality, dodgy scanner alas!

Professor Hubert Farnsworth: I'm sorry, Fry, but astronomers renamed Uranus in 2620 to end that stupid joke once and for all.
Fry: Oh. What's it called now?
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: Urrectum. Here, let me locate it for you.

Offline carmelo

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #23 on: 05/05/2007 01:55 PM »
Fantastic Thanks! But why Doctor Kerwin don't return more in space?

Offline qprmeteor

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #24 on: 05/07/2007 12:16 PM »
Joe Kerwin was in the running for an early MS slot, however, he became NASA's senior science representative in Australia in 1982 which took him out of the Astronaut Office. He returned to JSC in 1984 to become Director, Space and Life Sciences. IIRC, he performed the autoposies of the Challnger crew, but I may be wrong on that. He left NASA in 1987.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: I'm sorry, Fry, but astronomers renamed Uranus in 2620 to end that stupid joke once and for all.
Fry: Oh. What's it called now?
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: Urrectum. Here, let me locate it for you.

Offline Jorge

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #25 on: 05/07/2007 03:04 PM »
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qprmeteor - 7/5/2007  7:16 AM

Joe Kerwin was in the running for an early MS slot, however, he became NASA's senior science representative in Australia in 1982 which took him out of the Astronaut Office. He returned to JSC in 1984 to become Director, Space and Life Sciences. IIRC, he performed the autoposies of the Challnger crew, but I may be wrong on that.

Nope, you're correct.

http://history.nasa.gov/kerwin.html
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Offline rsp1202

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #26 on: 05/07/2007 03:19 PM »
The report reads that Kerwin represented NASA at the procedures, not that he was hand's on. AFIP have experts for that.

And this makes for very sober reading. Can't vouch for accuracy:
http://www.lutins.org/nasa.html

Offline dvandorn

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RE: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #27 on: 05/08/2007 07:45 PM »
My memory of Michael Cassutt's excellent "Deke!" is that, if flown, the crews of the final three Apollo missions would have been (in CDR, LMP, CMP order):

Apollo 18:  Dick Gordon, Jack Schmitt, Vance Brand
Apollo 19:  Fred Haise, Bill Pogue, Jack Lousma
Apollo 20:  Stu Roosa, Don Lind, Paul Weitz

The first two crews did train together -- Gordon's crew was back-up to Apollo 15, and for a few months, the Haise-Pogue-Lousma crew served as back-ups to Apollo 16.  However, when Apollos 15 and 19 were canceled, and it became obvious that Haise's crew would not fly in Apollo, it was re-arranged.  Pogue and Lousma were replaced by Mitchell and Roosa on a back-up crew that everyone knew would, barring disasters, never fly.

I do recall specifically that Deke said of Don Lind, "Apollo just ran out."  He was definitely going to fly on Apollo 20, had there been an Apollo 20.  (As I recall, he was being groomed as an LMP -- he had been the Astronaut Office representative to the development of the ALSEP and the lunar EVA suit, so I believe he was in line for a landing slot.)

Tony England was also highly thought of -- he was going to be the EVA CapCom on Apollo 13, for example, and was a support crew member on both 13 and 16.  I've always felt that, after flying Jack Schmitt on Apollo 18, Deke would have been under some pressure to fly a second scientist to the Moon before the program ended.  Tony was the only other astronaut besides Schmitt to have a degree in the geologic sciences (geophysics), and was considered highly competent.  I always wondered whether or not Deke would have given in and assigned Tony as the LMP on Apollo 20.

As for Bruce McCandless -- he was very highly thought of early in the program.  In 1969, he got the extremely plum assignment of CapCom during the first lunar EVA, and Shepard thought well enough of him to request him as his EVA-1 CapCom during Apollo 14.  I believe Deke put down his lack of earlier flights to the same syndrome that caught Lind, and also to McCandless' work on the AMU.  However, I always wondered... Bruce got sort of cheeky with Al Shepard while the latter was walking on the Moon, and I always wondered whether or not Smilin' Al had anything to do with Bruce's extended assignment delay.

As far as I'm concerned, of the "Original Nineteen" group, Fred Haise was the top-ranked guy, and Stu Roosa was the second-top-ranked.  They are the only guys out of their class who were considered for late Apollo mission commands, Haise was the first of his group to receive any kind of assignment (backup LMP on Apollo 8) and Roosa -- well, it's my opinion that Stu was paid back for yeomanlike service.

You see, Roosa was the guy at the Stoney console (the launch center's equivalent of the CapCom position) during Apollo 1's plugs-out test.  Of everyone on duty (or off duty) that evening, Roosa was on-point -- he was the guy talking to the crew.  He endured an agony that no one else could have guessed at, and he did it stoically, with professionalism.

It was sheer luck that Stu was in the position he was in -- he was given the job and everyone looked to see how he'd do with it.  But he not only impressed people with the way he did the job, he endured something none of the rest of them (including Deke) would have wanted to endure themselves.  So, they made it up to him.  He got to stay on-console as CapCom for pretty much every moment the Apollo 9 crew was awake, working with several different flight control teams.  And he was assigned as the prime CMP on Al Shepard's crew without ever having to serve on a backup crew (the only guy besides Shepard himself to manage that feat during Apollo).  Even Stu didn't believe that one at first -- when Shepard called Stu and Mitchell into his office and told them, "If you don't mind flying with an old retread, we're the prime crew for Apollo 13," Roosa's response was a four-word question:  "Did you say prime?"

Shame they couldn't have included that moment in "From the Earth to the Moon"...
-Doug

"The problem isn't that there are too many fools, the problem is that lightning isn't aimed right."  -Mark Twain

Offline carmelo

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #28 on: 05/09/2007 01:13 AM »
What about Pete Conrad on Apollo 20? Pete wanted a second trip on the moon,and remember Pete is the guy that obtains what it wants (see CMDR role in SK-2 over Cunningham and Schweickart).And if Apollo 13  was landed on the moon,Haise would have had Apollo 19,or the CMDR for 19 would have been Swigert (or Mattingly)?

Offline Jorge

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #29 on: 05/09/2007 01:20 AM »
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carmelo - 8/5/2007  8:13 PM

What about Pete Conrad on Apollo 20? Pete wanted a second trip on the moon,and remember Pete is the guy that obtains what it wants (see CMDR role in SK-2 over Cunningham and Schweickart).

From my (dim) memory of Cassutt's bio, Deke's response to Pete was, "You only get one of those."

Pete usually got what he wanted, but not always. He didn't get Lunar Gemini and he wasn't going to get a second moonwalk, if Deke had anything to say about it.
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Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #30 on: 05/09/2007 02:53 AM »
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Jorge - 8/5/2007  8:20 PM

Quote
carmelo - 8/5/2007  8:13 PM

What about Pete Conrad on Apollo 20? Pete wanted a second trip on the moon,and remember Pete is the guy that obtains what it wants (see CMDR role in SK-2 over Cunningham and Schweickart).

From my (dim) memory of Cassutt's bio, Deke's response to Pete was, "You only get one of those."

Pete usually got what he wanted, but not always. He didn't get Lunar Gemini and he wasn't going to get a second moonwalk, if Deke had anything to say about it.
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JRF

It was actually Tom Stafford (in his role as chief astronaut) to Pete.... and not only did Conrad not get a (possible) second lunar landing command, he didn't get to succeed Deke, either.   When Deke gave up his FCOD job to train for Apollo-Soyuz in 1973, Pete reportedly applied to succeed him, only to be informed by higher-ups (I believe it was Mr. Kraft -- who else would be higher?) that "there isn't going to be another Deke" -- meaning that a re-org of FCOps and the astronaut office was planned, and did, indeed, take place in early 1974.

Michael Cassutt

Offline carmelo

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #31 on: 05/09/2007 03:51 PM »
And about
Quote
if Apollo 13 was landed on the moon,Haise would have had Apollo 19,or the CMDR for 19 would have been Swigert (or Mattingly)
?

Offline qprmeteor

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #32 on: 05/09/2007 07:47 PM »
Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: I'm sorry, Fry, but astronomers renamed Uranus in 2620 to end that stupid joke once and for all.
Fry: Oh. What's it called now?
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: Urrectum. Here, let me locate it for you.

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #33 on: 05/09/2007 09:06 PM »
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qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt

Offline qprmeteor

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #34 on: 05/09/2007 10:39 PM »
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Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  5:06 PM

Quote
qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt

Now that would have been interesting, thanks for that Michael! I wonder what morale would have been like in the Astronaut Office amongst the CMPs, seeing LMPs like Haise, Mitchell and Irwin get a second bite of the lunar landing cherry...  :)
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: I'm sorry, Fry, but astronomers renamed Uranus in 2620 to end that stupid joke once and for all.
Fry: Oh. What's it called now?
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: Urrectum. Here, let me locate it for you.

Offline carmelo

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #35 on: 05/10/2007 12:17 AM »
Quote
Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  4:06 PM

Quote
qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt
Incredible! Haise lost two times the moon!!! That unlucky guy! :frown:  So,Apollo 20 CMDR would have been Irwin and Mitchell on 21?? But i have not read nothing of this in "Deke".Why?

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #36 on: 05/10/2007 05:20 AM »
Quote
qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  5:39 PM

Quote
Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  5:06 PM

Quote
qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt

Now that would have been interesting, thanks for that Michael! I wonder what morale would have been like in the Astronaut Office amongst the CMPs, seeing LMPs like Haise, Mitchell and Irwin get a second bite of the lunar landing cherry...  :)

Well, as Deke said, "All astronauts are created equal... but some are more equal than others."  More seriously, he had to balance fairness and sentimentality (spreading the goodies around, trying to get  everyone a flight) with common sense and efficient use of resources (making full use of those with LM training).  It probably would have irked some astros that their colleagues made it to the Moon twice and they didn't, but there was always a reason for someone to get irked.   As in any job.

Michael Cassutt

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #37 on: 05/10/2007 05:25 AM »
Quote
carmelo - 9/5/2007  7:17 PM

Quote
Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  4:06 PM

Quote
qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt
Incredible! Haise lost two times the moon!!! That unlucky guy! :frown:  So,Apollo 20 CMDR would have been Irwin and Mitchell on 21?? But i have not read nothing of this in "Deke".Why?


You didn't read it in DEKE! because it's just what-if talk -- it was worth discussing the rationale behind crew assignments -- that was history -- and useful to know some of Deke's rationale.  What is the point in saying  Haise "lost" the Moon "twice"?  The projection of later commanders was only relevant for a few weeks in 1969.... as missions disappeared, or were flown, and astronauts made career decisions, everything changed.  To read more into it is just silly.

Michael Cassutt

Offline dvandorn

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RE: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #38 on: 05/10/2007 04:18 PM »
Thanks for the additional details, Michael!  Gee, I would never have thought that even Deke would imagine there would be enough flights to recycle such people as Mitchell and Irwin into CDR slots before the moon flights ended.  Don't get me wrong, they were excellent and competent astronauts.  But their initial Apollo flights came late enough in the program, even in 1969 figuring, that you'd have to be thinking in terms of landings beyond Apollo 20 to figure on getting those guys into command slots...
-Doug

"The problem isn't that there are too many fools, the problem is that lightning isn't aimed right."  -Mark Twain

Offline carmelo

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #39 on: 05/10/2007 04:41 PM »
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Michael Cassutt - 10/5/2007  12:25 AM



You didn't read it in DEKE! because it's just what-if talk -- it was worth discussing the rationale behind crew assignments -- that was history -- and useful to know some of Deke's rationale.  What is the point in saying  Haise "lost" the Moon "twice"?  The projection of later commanders was only relevant for a few weeks in 1969.... as missions disappeared, or were flown, and astronauts made career decisions, everything changed.  To read more into it is just silly.

Michael Cassutt
For few weeks in 1969? Apollo 19 was cancelled  2 September 1970 ,months after Apollo 13,  So when 13 was launched Fred Haise could have had two moon landing.So he lost the moon twice.Is simple.

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