Author Topic: Don Lind and Tony England  (Read 10050 times)

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #30 on: 05/09/2007 02:53 AM »
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Jorge - 8/5/2007  8:20 PM

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carmelo - 8/5/2007  8:13 PM

What about Pete Conrad on Apollo 20? Pete wanted a second trip on the moon,and remember Pete is the guy that obtains what it wants (see CMDR role in SK-2 over Cunningham and Schweickart).

From my (dim) memory of Cassutt's bio, Deke's response to Pete was, "You only get one of those."

Pete usually got what he wanted, but not always. He didn't get Lunar Gemini and he wasn't going to get a second moonwalk, if Deke had anything to say about it.
--
JRF

It was actually Tom Stafford (in his role as chief astronaut) to Pete.... and not only did Conrad not get a (possible) second lunar landing command, he didn't get to succeed Deke, either.   When Deke gave up his FCOD job to train for Apollo-Soyuz in 1973, Pete reportedly applied to succeed him, only to be informed by higher-ups (I believe it was Mr. Kraft -- who else would be higher?) that "there isn't going to be another Deke" -- meaning that a re-org of FCOps and the astronaut office was planned, and did, indeed, take place in early 1974.

Michael Cassutt

Offline carmelo

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #31 on: 05/09/2007 03:51 PM »
And about
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if Apollo 13 was landed on the moon,Haise would have had Apollo 19,or the CMDR for 19 would have been Swigert (or Mattingly)
?

Offline qprmeteor

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #32 on: 05/09/2007 07:47 PM »
Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: I'm sorry, Fry, but astronomers renamed Uranus in 2620 to end that stupid joke once and for all.
Fry: Oh. What's it called now?
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Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #33 on: 05/09/2007 09:06 PM »
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qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt

Offline qprmeteor

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #34 on: 05/09/2007 10:39 PM »
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Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  5:06 PM

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qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt

Now that would have been interesting, thanks for that Michael! I wonder what morale would have been like in the Astronaut Office amongst the CMPs, seeing LMPs like Haise, Mitchell and Irwin get a second bite of the lunar landing cherry...  :)
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: I'm sorry, Fry, but astronomers renamed Uranus in 2620 to end that stupid joke once and for all.
Fry: Oh. What's it called now?
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: Urrectum. Here, let me locate it for you.

Offline carmelo

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #35 on: 05/10/2007 12:17 AM »
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Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  4:06 PM

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qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt
Incredible! Haise lost two times the moon!!! That unlucky guy! :frown:  So,Apollo 20 CMDR would have been Irwin and Mitchell on 21?? But i have not read nothing of this in "Deke".Why?

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #36 on: 05/10/2007 05:20 AM »
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qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  5:39 PM

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Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  5:06 PM

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qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt

Now that would have been interesting, thanks for that Michael! I wonder what morale would have been like in the Astronaut Office amongst the CMPs, seeing LMPs like Haise, Mitchell and Irwin get a second bite of the lunar landing cherry...  :)

Well, as Deke said, "All astronauts are created equal... but some are more equal than others."  More seriously, he had to balance fairness and sentimentality (spreading the goodies around, trying to get  everyone a flight) with common sense and efficient use of resources (making full use of those with LM training).  It probably would have irked some astros that their colleagues made it to the Moon twice and they didn't, but there was always a reason for someone to get irked.   As in any job.

Michael Cassutt

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #37 on: 05/10/2007 05:25 AM »
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carmelo - 9/5/2007  7:17 PM

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Michael Cassutt - 9/5/2007  4:06 PM

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qprmeteor - 9/5/2007  2:47 PM

Assuming 13 had been a success, I think 19 would have gone to the next CMP in line for command - Swigert, at least by the rotation laid down by Deke regarding the CMP's next assignment. Can't see how Haise would have gotten the CDR assignment if he had landed on the Moon, for similar reasons as to why Conrad was never seriously in the running for the CDR slot on 20.

Well, no.  The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_.  Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael Cassutt
Incredible! Haise lost two times the moon!!! That unlucky guy! :frown:  So,Apollo 20 CMDR would have been Irwin and Mitchell on 21?? But i have not read nothing of this in "Deke".Why?


You didn't read it in DEKE! because it's just what-if talk -- it was worth discussing the rationale behind crew assignments -- that was history -- and useful to know some of Deke's rationale.  What is the point in saying  Haise "lost" the Moon "twice"?  The projection of later commanders was only relevant for a few weeks in 1969.... as missions disappeared, or were flown, and astronauts made career decisions, everything changed.  To read more into it is just silly.

Michael Cassutt

Offline dvandorn

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RE: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #38 on: 05/10/2007 04:18 PM »
Thanks for the additional details, Michael!  Gee, I would never have thought that even Deke would imagine there would be enough flights to recycle such people as Mitchell and Irwin into CDR slots before the moon flights ended.  Don't get me wrong, they were excellent and competent astronauts.  But their initial Apollo flights came late enough in the program, even in 1969 figuring, that you'd have to be thinking in terms of landings beyond Apollo 20 to figure on getting those guys into command slots...
-Doug

"The problem isn't that there are too many fools, the problem is that lightning isn't aimed right."  -Mark Twain

Offline carmelo

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #39 on: 05/10/2007 04:41 PM »
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Michael Cassutt - 10/5/2007  12:25 AM



You didn't read it in DEKE! because it's just what-if talk -- it was worth discussing the rationale behind crew assignments -- that was history -- and useful to know some of Deke's rationale.  What is the point in saying  Haise "lost" the Moon "twice"?  The projection of later commanders was only relevant for a few weeks in 1969.... as missions disappeared, or were flown, and astronauts made career decisions, everything changed.  To read more into it is just silly.

Michael Cassutt
For few weeks in 1969? Apollo 19 was cancelled  2 September 1970 ,months after Apollo 13,  So when 13 was launched Fred Haise could have had two moon landing.So he lost the moon twice.Is simple.

Offline TJL

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #40 on: 05/12/2007 04:13 PM »
QUOTE...The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_. Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael...where did you find that information about Mitchell amd Irwin getting CDR slots to end the Apollo program.
I know Haise was chosen as BU CDR on 16 which would move him up to CDR on 19, however, I remember talk of Apollo 14 CMP Roosa getting the likely nod to command Apollo 20.
If I remember correctly, only Cernan and Haise went from LMP to CDR...and Cernan was chosen due to Apollo 11 CMP Collins decision to retire.

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Don Lind and Tony England
« Reply #41 on: 05/12/2007 10:03 PM »
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TJL - 12/5/2007  11:13 AM

QUOTE...The "rule" was that you don't get two lunar landing _commands_. Looking forward from summer 1969, when there were still 10 landings on the schedule, Deke fully intended to promote Haise, Mitchell and Irwin from LMP to commander.

Michael...where did you find that information about Mitchell amd Irwin getting CDR slots to end the Apollo program.
I know Haise was chosen as BU CDR on 16 which would move him up to CDR on 19, however, I remember talk of Apollo 14 CMP Roosa getting the likely nod to command Apollo 20.
If I remember correctly, only Cernan and Haise went from LMP to CDR...and Cernan was chosen due to Apollo 11 CMP Collins decision to retire.

From Slayton, both in conversation and notes.  Keep in mind these provisos, however: there never was a likely landing for Irwin (backup LMP 12, prime LMP 15, potential backup CDR 18, potential prime CDR 21) to have been aimed _at_.  Deke just said he thought Irwin was a strong candidate to command his own landing mission.  

Further, Mitchell made it clear sometime in 1970 that he didn't wish to stay in the astronaut office after his flight -- hence the talk of Roosa as a potential commander.  By that time Apollo 20 was on the verge of cancellation, so the issue was soon moot.

As I said somewhere upthread, the possibility of these LM pilots rotating to the command of later missions was never really an issue -- just one scenario valid only for a brief period in 1969.

There's also no point in looking for "logic" by contrasting the Collins-Cernan situation with that of Haise-Mitchell-Irwin.  Slayton considered the earlier Apollo CM pilots (Scott, Young, Collins, Gordon) to be some of his most capable astronauts (hence their assignment to those seats on those missions).  He wanted them to get their own crews and commands at the next opportunity.

With the 1966 group, there was a rough (but by no means absolute) division of LM and CM specialists.  Yes, it was easily possible for someone like Roosa, Mattingly or Swigert to become a lunar landing commander -- but when you already have Haise, Mitchell and Irwin -- all of them involved with the LM from late 1966 on -- why would you assign the former _ahead of_ the latter?

Michael Cassutt

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