Author Topic: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V  (Read 64432 times)

Offline wingod

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #40 on: 12/28/2006 04:48 am »
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simonbp - 27/12/2006  10:04 PM

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Bill White - 27/12/2006  9:26 PM

If your target is EML-1 or EML-2, I recall reading somewhere that the LEO inclination is not a significant issue. True?

That makes sense geometrically, even for Earth-Sun L2, as the trajectory is the same either way.

The question, though, is if you are sending something (like a giant telescope) out into deep space, why you would even stop at LEO, even if you are using electric propulsion? The only reason that I can think of is to assemble the spacecraft, before attaching an ion drive to it and sending it off. Being in LEO, you could use astronauts to simplify assembly, but what real benefit (performance issues aside) is there to assembling something at ISS, as opposed to free-flying? Wouldn't it even be safer for ISS if the assembly is done far away from it (less risk of collisions, debris)?

Again, I can see the benefits of LEO assembly, but I don't understand why ISS is good place to do it...

Simon ;)

Simon

You are not going to build a giant telescope on the ground and launch it.  The problems with JWST (the original contract was for about $1 billion and it is now $4.5 billion) probably preclude telescopes larger than it from ever being built on the ground.  Orbital assembly allows you to build an n-sized telescope.  ISS is a good place and electric propulsion the method to get it to L2.  The guys at GSFC think that they could use the technique to do the assembly out at L2 and that might work but would be much more expensive than launching parts to ISS to be assembled there.

A major benefit of ISS is that it is ALREADY PAID FOR.  What is it about this that is hard to understand?

Space tourism would not exist without ISS.




Offline publiusr

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #41 on: 01/05/2007 05:38 pm »
ISS is already aging. It is in an orbit that robs exploration craft of extra velocity and that amounts to tons of payload lost.

Ares V/DIRECT are perfect for a space station replacement with a better inclination. It allows fewer assmbly missions and allows assmbled items to grow much faster than those made with this insipid "no-more-than-20-tons-to-LEO-per-launch" people are fixated upon.

Five Ares Vs (Energiya) launches and ISS would have been done---and most of its life span would have been given over to actual research and not tedious assembly missions. Why is that so hard to understand?


Offline wingod

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #42 on: 01/06/2007 05:53 am »
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publiusr - 5/1/2007  12:21 PM

ISS is already aging. It is in an orbit that robs exploration craft of extra velocity and that amounts to tons of payload lost.

Ares V/DIRECT are perfect for a space station replacement with a better inclination. It allows fewer assmbly missions and allows assmbled items to grow much faster than those made with this insipid "no-more-than-20-tons-to-LEO-per-launch" people are fixated upon.

Five Ares Vs (Energiya) launches and ISS would have been done---and most of its life span would have been given over to actual research and not tedious assembly missions. Why is that so hard to understand?


Batpucky.

Both the Atlas V and Delta IV suffer less than 6.5% payload loss.  Unless you are launching something dense like fuel, this is irrelevant.  If you really wanna get technical, with a Hall thruster system you could move ISS to a lower inclination over a 2 year period.

I repeat ISS IS PAID FOR, what part of this escapes the attention of anyone who looks at the upcoming NASA budget?


Offline simonbp

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #43 on: 01/06/2007 04:09 pm »
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wingod - 6/1/2007  12:36 AM

I repeat ISS IS PAID FOR, what part of this escapes the attention of anyone who looks at the upcoming NASA budget?

But again, I understand why you would assemble something in LEO - it's a very convient place -  but why ISS specifically? If you lob piece A of your uber-telescope into a nice, stable orbit, and then fly up with piece B, C, etc, and slap them on, how is that less convieniet than doing exactly the same thing at ISS? Would it not be safer to do assembly away from ISS, just in case something goes wrong? I mean isn't this how ISS was built in the first place?

Simon ;)

Offline wingod

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #44 on: 01/06/2007 06:36 pm »
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simonbp - 6/1/2007  10:52 AM

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wingod - 6/1/2007  12:36 AM

I repeat ISS IS PAID FOR, what part of this escapes the attention of anyone who looks at the upcoming NASA budget?

But again, I understand why you would assemble something in LEO - it's a very convient place -  but why ISS specifically? If you lob piece A of your uber-telescope into a nice, stable orbit, and then fly up with piece B, C, etc, and slap them on, how is that less convieniet than doing exactly the same thing at ISS? Would it not be safer to do assembly away from ISS, just in case something goes wrong? I mean isn't this how ISS was built in the first place?

Simon ;)

Simon I don't  think that you understand the ramifications of just flying piece B, C, etc up and "slapping" them on.  ISS worked because you had a stable platform to start with (Zarya) and you had this big beautiful orbiter, also stable, with magnificent robotic arms and a crew of seven to do the assembly.  We are REALLY going to miss the orbiter when she is gone.  That is the point of the image that I posted.  These guys at GSFC that I know are trying really hard to recreate that capability with the CEV/LSAM but guess what?  All of that hardware is THROWN AWAY after each mission.  Flight hardware ain't cheap.  

On ISS today we have an incredible set of assets that can be used to assemble "stuff".  Robotic arms, crew living locally looking for something to do, and the ability to send payloads up to dock (Progress, ATV, HTV, COTS).  This saves a HUGE amount of money over doing something with the Constellation program hardware.  I really can't wait for the truss to be built out, the final solar arrays in place and the Japanese Kibo module operating.  ISS is an incredible asset to humanity.


Offline meiza

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #45 on: 01/07/2007 12:34 am »
The problem with shuttle is that since it's a very heavy vehicle, the 6% eats into the top section, the payload, a lot more than with an EELV...

Offline wingod

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #46 on: 01/07/2007 06:23 am »
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meiza - 6/1/2007  7:17 PM

The problem with shuttle is that since it's a very heavy vehicle, the 6% eats into the top section, the payload, a lot more than with an EELV...

While that is a true statement it is also irrelevant.

The Shuttle carries seven crew, has a huge payload bay, robotic systems, stabilization systems (EELV only has 45 minutes of power in orbit).

You could not launch ISS elements with an EELV either.


Offline nisse

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #47 on: 01/07/2007 05:02 pm »
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wingod - 7/1/2007  1:06 AM

You could not launch ISS elements with an EELV either.


But it is possible to do so with a Proton.

Offline Jim

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #48 on: 01/07/2007 05:29 pm »
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nisse - 7/1/2007  12:45 PM

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wingod - 7/1/2007  1:06 AM

You could not launch ISS elements with an EELV either.


But it is possible to do so with a Proton.

He wasn't talking about Russian element.  He was talking about shuttle delivered pieces, which are not configured for ELV launch.  An EELV could have launch the FGB or SM

Offline Nyarlathotep

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #49 on: 01/10/2007 08:53 am »
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simonbp - 6/1/2007  10:52 AM
But again, I understand why you would assemble something in LEO - it's a very convient place -  but why ISS specifically?

I would have thought a small bigelow module at ~29 degrees would be ideal.

Offline ApolloLee

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #50 on: 01/10/2007 05:24 pm »
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Nyarlathotep - 10/1/2007  1:36 AM


I would have thought a small bigelow module at ~29 degrees would be ideal.

Imagine how many Bigelow modules you could put on an Ares V...
How about the entire ISS volume on ONE launch...

Offline stargazer777

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #51 on: 01/11/2007 03:44 am »
I think that is a very worthwhile idea.  Using Bigelow modules and connectors along with a nuclear reactor or a solar arrays we could rapidly (one or two heavy lift launches with Ares V or IV) build an even better space station than the ISS which is easier to maintain due to its simplicity and lessons learned incorporated into the new design.  If we put it at a location that is much easier for us to reach it could be used as a real research station and jumping off point for Moon and, eventually, an assembly point for more distant missions -- including a mission to Mars.  These are the kind of things true heavy lift boosters make possible.

Offline publiusr

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #52 on: 02/02/2007 07:17 pm »
The very large space based radars discussed in the Late Jan 07 issues of Space News would also be perfect for Ares V. But the anti-space folks are sure to nix (or shrink) those in favor of more planes for the air-force's pilot's union.

Offline Jim

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #53 on: 02/02/2007 07:26 pm »
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publiusr - 2/2/2007  3:17 PM

The very large space based radars discussed in the Late Jan 07 issues of Space News would also be perfect for Ares V. But the anti-space folks are sure to nix (or shrink) those in favor of more planes for the air-force's pilot's union.

Wrong.  SBR have little use.  It was the "air-force's pilot's union" that thought this up but the rest of the military realizes it has little benefit

Offline publiusr

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #54 on: 02/02/2007 08:13 pm »
"Little-use" to find mobile WMDs?

Sure Jim, anything you say.

Offline Jim

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #55 on: 02/02/2007 11:34 pm »
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publiusr - 2/2/2007  4:13 PM

"Little-use" to find mobile WMDs?

Sure Jim, anything you say.

It is never intented to look for those.  SBR is airspace not ground targets

Offline publiusr

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #56 on: 02/03/2007 05:38 pm »
I'm looking at page A2 of the Jan 22, 2007 issue of Space News now--in the Military Quarterly section...

DARPA SCRAPS SPACE TEST OF RADAR ANTENNA
"The ISAT effort was born from the Air Force's post-Sept. 11 Global Strike Initiative which called for the ability to destroy (WMDs) anywhere on the globe on short notice. Mobile ground targets posed a special challenge. Trucks loaded with missiles might roam deep within a nation's borders and beyond the field of view of the U.S. Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System (JSTARS)..."

This article was written by Ben Iannotta after an interview with Michael Zatman, DARPA's ISAT program manager. "Calculations showed that the radar antennas would need to be 300 metres long and up to 10 metres wide."

Jim, this would be **perfect** for Ares V.

"The stowing and deployment concepts showed promise..."

This may or may not have fit on Delta IV. Something similar for Ares V may also be good for space based solar satellite deployment.

As for your statement "SBR is airspace not ground targets" I would refer you to the Jan 29, 2007 issue of Space News (page 13) :

CBO REPORT HIGHLIGHTS LIMITATIONS OF SPACE RADAR OPTIONS

"The Space Radar...has long been hailed as a boon to military operations, largely because it would be able to detect moving targets on the ground, such as mobile missile platforms..."

So you are either mistaken, Jim---or the real purpose of this system is other than what was stated to the press.

Sadly--the last article I cited--contains talk about how the powers-that-be wanted much smaller systems (that would fit on an EELV) to work "in concert with other air, space, and ground sensors.

--i.e. "We don't want stand-alone arrays CBO studied, becaue it would be a financial threat to systems we like--like fighters and aircraft. So we'll have you cut instead."

It all smacks of John Jumper's ilk, and/or all the other folks who don't want milspace to stand on its own.

The same kind of folks who made Pete Worden's life miserable.

Offline Jim

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #57 on: 02/03/2007 10:47 pm »
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publiusr - 3/2/2007  1:38 PM

This article was written by Ben Iannotta after an interview with Michael Zatman, DARPA's ISAT program manager. "Calculations showed that the radar antennas would need to be 300 metres long and up to 10 metres wide."

Jim, this would be **perfect** for Ares V.

"The stowing and deployment concepts showed promise..."

This may or may not have fit on Delta IV. Something similar for Ares V may also be good for space based solar satellite deployment.

The same kind of folks who made Pete Worden's life miserable.

No it wouldn't *perfect* for Ares V.  Ares V costs too much.  
Anyways, that could fit on an EELV, no need for the overkill ARES V

Pete Worden is the not the person you think he is.  He wasn't even in the "in crowd" of USAF Space.   NRO crowd is who rules the roost and always had.  That's where the great USAF space leaders work


Offline wingod

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #58 on: 02/04/2007 03:53 am »
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Jim - 3/2/2007  5:47 PM

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publiusr - 3/2/2007  1:38 PM

This article was written by Ben Iannotta after an interview with Michael Zatman, DARPA's ISAT program manager. "Calculations showed that the radar antennas would need to be 300 metres long and up to 10 metres wide."

Jim, this would be **perfect** for Ares V.

"The stowing and deployment concepts showed promise..."

This may or may not have fit on Delta IV. Something similar for Ares V may also be good for space based solar satellite deployment.

The same kind of folks who made Pete Worden's life miserable.

No it wouldn't *perfect* for Ares V.  Ares V costs too much.  
Anyways, that could fit on an EELV, no need for the overkill ARES V

Pete Worden is the not the person you think he is.  He wasn't even in the "in crowd" of USAF Space.   NRO crowd is who rules the roost and always had.  That's where the great USAF space leaders work


laf

I guess that is why Pete Worden's former deputy is the head of technology at NRO now.

I guess that is why Pete is the head of the independent review team of Orbital Express.

Funny how that works.




Offline Jim

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Re: Non Orion LSAM uses of Ares V
« Reply #59 on: 02/04/2007 02:28 pm »
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wingod - 3/2/2007  11:53 PM

laf

I guess that is why Pete Worden's former deputy is the head of technology at NRO now.

I guess that is why Pete is the head of the independent review team of Orbital Express.

Funny how that works.


Not Pete but his deputy.  Pete never has a similar role

Heads of Review teams are just that figure heads not the hands on workers.  It is the same as a celebrity endorsement.  

 He is also a NASA center director, he doesn't have the time to do real work

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