Author Topic: Kistler/Orbital divorce  (Read 14065 times)

Offline aero313

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 516
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 0
Kistler/Orbital divorce
« on: 09/26/2006 01:33 AM »
I'm surprised no one else has started a thread on this.  Space News is reporting that Orbital is terminating it's relationship with Kistler for COTS.  I had heard similar rumors last week, but now it's public.  

Quote
“We haven’t been able to agree on all the elements of the business plan so we will not be part of the program going forward,” Orbital Sciences spokesman Barron Beneski said Sept. 25. “And of course as a result we will not be investing the $10 million.”

More surprising, Kistler has dumped something like $600M into K1 to date and according to the article expects to need ANOTHER $600M ($207M from NASA and twice that much from investors) to execute COTS.  WOW!  I'll say they can't agree on the business plan!

Offline NotGncDude

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
  • V
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
RE: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #1 on: 09/26/2006 02:01 AM »
Quote
aero313
- 25/9/2006 9:16 PM
More surprising, Kistler has dumped something like $600M into K1 to
date and according to the article expects to need ANOTHER $600M ($207M
from NASA and twice
that much from investors) to execute COTS.
Is this new $600M figure from Kistler or is it an estimate from a 3rd
party ? They were bought by Rocketplane so you'd think that the new
management would be more careful about costs.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32479
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 11259
  • Likes Given: 333
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #2 on: 09/26/2006 02:24 AM »
It is a Kistler estimate.   Rocketplane management has nothing to do with it, their main subs are LM, NG and Aerojet.  Basically Kistler doesn't build anything, they pay people to build things.

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #3 on: 09/26/2006 02:30 AM »
Quote
aero313 - 26/9/2006  2:16 AM

I'm surprised no one else has started a thread on this.

We're more vehicles and engineering news media here, than we are business news media, but I appreciate the thread being started.

Offline guidanceisgo

  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 80
  • whos driving this pig?
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #4 on: 09/26/2006 04:51 AM »
Maybe we should move this thread to the private spaceflight area.  COTS is big news in the private world.  RPK doesn't seem to get the same press as Spacex.  Maybe its a good think in this instance!

Offline NotGncDude

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
  • V
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #5 on: 09/26/2006 01:31 PM »
Quote
Jim - 25/9/2006  10:07 PM

It is a Kistler estimate.   Rocketplane management has nothing to do with it, their main subs are LM, NG and Aerojet.  Basically Kistler doesn't build anything, they pay people to build things.

And Draper Lab...

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #6 on: 09/26/2006 01:33 PM »
Quote
guidanceisgo - 26/9/2006  5:34 AM

Maybe we should move this thread to the private spaceflight area.  COTS is big news in the private world.  RPK doesn't seem to get the same press as Spacex.  Maybe its a good think in this instance!

Done.

Offline vt_hokie

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3034
  • Hazlet, NJ
  • Liked: 92
  • Likes Given: 244
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #7 on: 09/26/2006 09:30 PM »
Quote
ianmga - 26/9/2006  9:14 AM

And Draper Lab...

Is Honeywell involved in any way at this point?

Offline NotGncDude

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
  • V
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #8 on: 04/30/2007 04:21 AM »
Just saw this. I believe Honeywell is involved in supplying the IMU's.

Offline JIS

  • Elite Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1088
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #9 on: 04/30/2007 09:28 AM »
It looks like next bankruptcy is very close.
'Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill' - Old Greek experience

Offline simonbp

Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #10 on: 04/30/2007 12:32 PM »
Quote
JIS - 30/4/2007  4:28 AM

It looks like next bankruptcy is very close.

Or a buyout by ATK...

Simon ;)

Offline space_dreamer

  • Member
  • Posts: 38
  • London
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #11 on: 04/30/2007 01:11 PM »
I’ve always thought that Kistler was a really bad choice for cots. They already spent $500 million with out a single fight! What a sick joke! If only the ordinal $500 million had been invested into Xcor, Armadillo, Bristol Spaceplanes, Starchaser, Spacedev etc…

The second COTS prize (after SpaceX) should have gone to Spacedev or Tspace.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32479
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 11259
  • Likes Given: 333
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #12 on: 04/30/2007 01:17 PM »
Quote
space_dreamer - 30/4/2007  9:11 AM

I’ve always thought that Kistler was a really bad choice for cots. They already spent $500 million with out a single fight! What a sick joke! If only the ordinal $500 million had been invested into Xcor, Armadillo, Bristol Spaceplanes, Starchaser, Spacedev etc…

The second COTS prize (after SpaceX) should have gone to Spacedev or Tspace.

Xcor, Armadillo, Bristol Spaceplanes, Starchaser, T-space etc..  None of these had viable options

Offline space_dreamer

  • Member
  • Posts: 38
  • London
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #13 on: 04/30/2007 08:27 PM »
I meant for the investment that Kistler got before COTS. What was wrong with Tspace cots entry?

Offline wannamoonbase

  • Elite Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3103
  • Denver, CO
    • U.S. Metric Association
  • Liked: 762
  • Likes Given: 1223
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #14 on: 04/30/2007 09:05 PM »
Quote
space_dreamer - 30/4/2007  4:27 PM

I meant for the investment that Kistler got before COTS. What was wrong with Tspace cots entry?

It was private money, not tax payer.  So what does it matter to any of us?  

The fact that they were able to raise that much money, design a vehicle, acquire engines and partially build the K1 says a million percent more than any of those other guys with glossy pictures and grand schemes only.  

The others might be possible but certainly not close and if they were cheap why not build them on their own?

I wish SpaceX and Kistler both the best of luck and I hope both succeed, as that could change the industry more than anything else.
Needing a copy of 'Tales of Suspense #39'

Offline docmordrid

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5105
  • Michigan
  • Liked: 2245
  • Likes Given: 1
RE: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #15 on: 05/01/2007 12:56 AM »
This was resolved shortly after the original story;

http://www.space.com/news/060926_cots_rocketplane.html

Quote
Rocketplane Kistler Says It Has New Strategic Partner in the Wings

WASHINGTON - Rocketplane Kistler President Randy Brinkley said Sept. 25 that the Oklahoma City-based company already has found another firm willing to replace Orbital Sciences Corp. as prime contractor for the K-1 reusable launch vehicle.

"We're very comfortable with the new partner and think it's a good fit," Brinkley said.

Brinkley declined to identify Rocketplane Kistler's new partner but said that the unnamed U.S. company would take over Orbital Sciences' systems engineering and integration role on the K-1 and make a strategic investment "equal to or greater" than the $10 million Orbital had planned to bring to the table.

http://hobbyspace.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=2741

Quote
Rocketplane Kistler and ATK Announce Agreement for K-1 Launch Vehicle and COTS Program

ATK Will Lead Vehicle Development, Vehicle Assembly, Integration and Test, and Launch and Landing Site Operations

Oklahoma City and Salt Lake City, November 8, 2006 – Rocketplane Kistler (RpK) and Alliant Techsystems (NYSE: ATK) announced today that ATK will become the lead contractor for RpK’s K-1 launch vehicle, which was recently awarded a Space Act Agreement by NASA for the Commercial Orbital Transportation Services (COTS) program. The K-1 is a fully reusable space transportation system designed to provide cost-effective and reliable transport of cargo and science payloads to and from the International Space Station (ISS).
DM

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32479
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 11259
  • Likes Given: 333
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #16 on: 05/01/2007 01:29 AM »
LM has taken over the vehicle assembly

Offline Christine

  • Member
  • Posts: 79
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #17 on: 05/01/2007 02:00 AM »
Somehow, all I suspect that they've taken over are the first round COTS payments...

Offline NotGncDude

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
  • V
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #18 on: 05/01/2007 02:04 AM »
Would it make sense for ATK to buy Kistler from Rocketplane and take over the development the vehicle? It would seem that it would give them an entry into this segment. I'm open to flame, as I'm clueless about these business issues.

Offline NotGncDude

  • Veteran
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
  • V
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Kistler/Orbital divorce
« Reply #19 on: 05/01/2007 02:21 AM »
Quote
Christine - 30/4/2007  10:00 PM

Somehow, all I suspect that they've taken over are the first round COTS payments...

This ain't no joke. There is a lot of people working hard for the K1 to flight. Sadly, those people cost money.

Tags: