Author Topic: Trump Space Policy Directive 1  (Read 32990 times)

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #40 on: 12/11/2017 07:56 PM »
Oh, you mean "that guy" who actually walked on the Moon?? ??? :-[
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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #41 on: 12/11/2017 07:59 PM »
Transcript of POTUS and VP remarks:

http://spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=50881

Offline DarkenedOne

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #42 on: 12/11/2017 08:21 PM »
Two things that were memorable:

1. VP Pence stating that we're returning to our Moon for strategic reasons - national security.

2. Trump stating that his policy is about jobs.

The first one is very scary, since I don't think anyone wants to militarize space. That would just hasten the end of Earth, which means maybe we should be all shoving money at Elon Musk to hurry up and get the Mars colony going.

As for jobs, Trump doesn't know anything more about "space" than he does about the military (i.e. very little), which means Congress can just keep funding NASA for jobs like they like to do, and not much needs to get accomplished. And likely Congress won't increase NASA's funding, which if so would be bad news for the SLS and Orion programs, which currently don't have any funded programs or payloads that they are needed to support. More status quo is bad for them.

So did anything change today? No.

Space has been militarized for a long time.  There is however national security implications for a presence on the moon.  The reasoning starts with the realization that it is far easier to move from the Moon to any Earth orbit than it is to move material from Earth's surface.  If a nation were able to establish a base on the moon that would be supplied by resources on the Moon (ISRU), then that nation would dominate space economically and militarily.  Of course we know that there are many difficulties in establishing a base on the moon and doing ISRU on a significant scale, but I do not think there is anyone who believes it is beyond our technological capability. 

I would like to say that the same is not true for Mars.  As much as I would like to see a Mars mission I have not heard anyone even suggest that Mars would have any influence economically or militarily on Earth.     


Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #43 on: 12/11/2017 08:24 PM »
Eric Berger’s take and what today means and possible paths forward:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/12/president-trump-says-were-going-back-to-the-moon/

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #44 on: 12/11/2017 08:59 PM »
Space has been militarized for a long time.

So far passively, and only with non-human systems. A human presence on the Moon for national security purposes goes beyond what we have today.

Quote
There is however national security implications for a presence on the moon.  The reasoning starts with the realization that it is far easier to move from the Moon to any Earth orbit than it is to move material from Earth's surface.  If a nation were able to establish a base on the moon that would be supplied by resources on the Moon (ISRU), then that nation would dominate space economically and militarily.

Anything can be rationalized, but that doesn't mean that the rationalization is correct.

The Arms Race resulted from the fear that one nation was going to have a superiority over another, and thus the one that felt like they were behind rationalized that they needed to build more arms - which included enough nuclear weapons to destroy civilization many times over.

A similar type of military buildup in space could happen, and that would, over time, limit the private sector's ability to expand out into space. In other words, in a slight amount of militarization in space could kill off the efforts of the private sector to find new business models based on activity in space. And no one would likely be immune.

Quote
Of course we know that there are many difficulties in establishing a base on the moon and doing ISRU on a significant scale, but I do not think there is anyone who believes it is beyond our technological capability.

The amount we spend should be in proportion to how badly we need it, and establishing such a capability on our Moon is going to cost a MASSIVE amount of money if the SLS and Orion are used. And no, I don't see Congress deciding to use the private sector to help out - and least not on Trump's watch.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #45 on: 12/11/2017 09:57 PM »
Quote
The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release.                             December 11, 2017
Presidential Memorandum on Reinvigorating America's Human Space Exploration Program

MEMORANDUM FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT

THE SECRETARY OF STATE

THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE

THE SECRETARY OF COMMERCE

THE SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION

THE SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY

THE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE

THE DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET

THE ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT FOR NATIONAL SECURITY AFFAIRS

THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION

THE DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY POLICY

THE ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT FOR HOMELAND SECURITY AND COUNTERTERRORISM

THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF

SUBJECT:        Reinvigorating America's Human Space Exploration Program

Section 1.  Amendment to Presidential Policy Directive-4.

Presidential Policy Directive-4 of June 28, 2010 (National Space Policy), is amended as follows:

The paragraph beginning "Set far-reaching exploration milestones" is deleted and replaced with the following:

"Lead an innovative and sustainable program of exploration with commercial and international partners to enable human expansion across the solar system and to bring back to Earth new knowledge and opportunities.  Beginning with missions beyond low-Earth orbit, the United States will lead the return of humans to the Moon for long-term exploration and utilization, followed by human missions to Mars and other destinations;".

Sec. 2.  General Provisions.  (a)  Nothing in this memorandum shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:

(i)   the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or

(ii)  the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.

(b)  This memorandum shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

(c)  This memorandum is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

(d)  This memorandum shall be published in the Federal Register.

 

DONALD J. TRUMP

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/12/11/presidential-memorandum-reinvigorating-americas-human-space-exploration

Online Chris Bergin

Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #46 on: 12/11/2017 09:59 PM »
I know it's really tempting, but hold back on the urge for political comments. Keep it on the subject.

Meanwhile:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
December 11, 2017
 
COALITION FOR DEEP SPACE EXPLORATION STATEMENT ON ADMINISTRATION’S COMMITMENT TO EXPLORE DEEP SPACE
 
WASHINGTON, D.C. — The Coalition for Deep Space Exploration (Coalition) welcomes Space Policy Directive-1 (SPD-1) signed today by President Trump, formalizing the commitment made by the Administration during the first meeting of the National Space Council to reinvigorate America’s deep space exploration program. The signing ceremony in the White House West Wing was attended by Coalition President and CEO Dr. Mary Lynne Dittmar together with the President, Vice President, members of Congress, NASA Acting Administrator Robert Lightfoot and NASA astronauts – including Dr. Harrison “Jack” Schmitt, who together with the late Captain Eugene Cernan were the last Americans to visit the Moon during Apollo 17 exactly 45 years ago.
 
“After 45 years, it is time to return humans to the region of the Moon even as we look toward Mars,” Dr. Dittmar said. “The Coalition is proud to support NASA and to help bring about this exciting future. We congratulate the Trump Administration on its bold vision and commitment to American leadership in space.”
 
“Human space exploration expands the frontiers of knowledge and experience, and represents the best of humankind,” she continued. “This Presidential Directive affirms U.S. leadership in human space exploration, returning American astronauts to the region of the Moon, while laying the foundation for eventual missions to Mars and beyond. It is fitting that the signing ceremony occurs on the 45th anniversary of landing the last men on the moon – Dr. Schmitt and the late Captain Cernan, who made it his life’s work to ensure that Americans would return to deep space. NASA’s flagship programs for human space exploration – the Orion crew vehicle and the Space Launch System (SLS) rocket – supported by ongoing research on human health and performance conducted on the International Space Station – will take a major step to fulfilling this vision beginning with Exploration Mission 1 targeted for late 2019.”
 
“The Coalition and its 70 member companies enthusiastically support American leadership back to the Moon, exemplified by Orion, SLS and key exploration capabilities like the Deep Space Gateway. In addition to human exploration, these missions will open opportunities for a wide range of stakeholders in science and commerce, and will strengthen and extend U.S. relationships with our international partners. Together with public private partnerships such as NASA’s NextSTEP program that is developing technologies for deep space habitats, and the Lunar CATALYST program that is advancing robotic landers, these activities will inevitably lead to new achievements in human exploration, lunar and planetary science, and to the growth of the human economic sphere, beginning in Low Earth Orbit and expanding outward to eventually encompass the lunar region and beyond.”
 
 
About the Coalition for Deep Space Exploration
 
The Coalition for Deep Space Exploration is a national organization of more than 70 space industry businesses and advocacy groups focused on ensuring the United States remains a leader in space, science and technology. Based in Washington D.C., the Coalition engages in outreach and education reinforcing the value and benefits of human space exploration and space science with the public and our nation’s leaders, building lasting support for a long-term, sustainable, strategic direction for our nation’s space program.
 

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #47 on: 12/11/2017 10:01 PM »
Quote
CSF Statement on President Trump signing of Space Policy Directive 1
by Jane Kinney on DECEMBER 11, 2017

“CSF applauds President Trump for signing Space Policy Directive 1, which directs NASA to partner with the U.S. commercial space industry to return Americans to the Moon,” said Eric Stallmer, President of CSF. “The U.S. commercial space industry has already invested hundreds of millions of dollars in private capital to develop innovative capabilities for lunar transport, operations, and resource utilization, leading to many lower cost innovative approaches that can benefit this new era of lunar exploration. CSF urges the Administration to direct NASA to leverage these capabilities to generate greater efficiency and quicker solutions, and to partner with industry through flexible, innovative contracting approaches, to accelerate progress towards achieving the goals set out in Space Policy Directive 1.”

http://www.commercialspaceflight.org/2017/12/csf-statement-president-trump-signing-space-policy-directive-1/

Online john smith 19

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #48 on: 12/11/2017 10:40 PM »
Agreed about the debt, but this president is only interested in aggrandizing his term in office with his obsession with his own "Kennedy moment" and legacy building
I think many different people have many different "Kennedy moments" in mind.
Time will tell which one(s) Trump actually manages to re-live.
Quote from: Rocket Science
(he already has begun a second term campaign).
He's already got the the slogan ready
"Keeping America great"   ;)
Quote from: Rocket Science
He may concoct a deal with his Republican colleagues in congress to this end... We'll see...
Isn't that pretty much mandatory if he wants this to go anywhere?
« Last Edit: 12/11/2017 10:41 PM by john smith 19 »
BFS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of flying in Earth and Mars atmospheres. BFR. The worlds biggest Methane fueled FFORSC engined CFRP structured booster for BFS. First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. Believe no one. Run your own numbers. So, you are going to Mars to start a better life? Picture it in your mind. Now say what it is out loud.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #49 on: 12/11/2017 11:11 PM »
Agreed about the debt, but this president is only interested in aggrandizing his term in office with his obsession with his own "Kennedy moment" and legacy building
I think many different people have many different "Kennedy moments" in mind.
Time will tell which one(s) Trump actually manages to re-live.
Quote from: Rocket Science
(he already has begun a second term campaign).
He's already got the the slogan ready
"Keeping America great"   ;)
Quote from: Rocket Science
He may concoct a deal with his Republican colleagues in congress to this end... We'll see...
Isn't that pretty much mandatory if he wants this to go anywhere?
There are "space missions" and  then there's "space stunts"... I'm speaking of the latter...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
~Rob: Physics instructor, Aviator, Vintage auto racer

Offline clongton

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #50 on: 12/12/2017 01:18 AM »
Can you provide the exact quote about Lunar surface because I missed it.

"Finally, we're honored to be joined by Apollo astronaut Jack Schmitt. Exactly 45 years ago, almost to the minute, Jack became one of the last Americans to land on the moon. Today, we pledge that he will not be the last."
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline DarkenedOne

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #51 on: 12/12/2017 02:00 AM »
Quote
There is however national security implications for a presence on the moon.  The reasoning starts with the realization that it is far easier to move from the Moon to any Earth orbit than it is to move material from Earth's surface.  If a nation were able to establish a base on the moon that would be supplied by resources on the Moon (ISRU), then that nation would dominate space economically and militarily.

Anything can be rationalized, but that doesn't mean that the rationalization is correct.

The Arms Race resulted from the fear that one nation was going to have a superiority over another, and thus the one that felt like they were behind rationalized that they needed to build more arms - which included enough nuclear weapons to destroy civilization many times over.

Yes and back then they were constantly considering how one nation could gain a military advantage over another.  The idea of a military moon base was far fetch, but considered well within the realm of possibility.

Quote
A similar type of military buildup in space could happen, and that would, over time, limit the private sector's ability to expand out into space. In other words, in a slight amount of militarization in space could kill off the efforts of the private sector to find new business models based on activity in space. And no one would likely be immune.

Historically military buildups supercharged the industries that were involved.  Look at the airline industry.  There is no doubt that without the massive investments the military made in both large size and engine technology it would of taken longer for us to get where we are today.  The same is true in the space business.  The military is still making massive investments in space technology that eventually becomes available to the private sector. 

Quote
Quote
Of course we know that there are many difficulties in establishing a base on the moon and doing ISRU on a significant scale, but I do not think there is anyone who believes it is beyond our technological capability.

The amount we spend should be in proportion to how badly we need it, and establishing such a capability on our Moon is going to cost a MASSIVE amount of money if the SLS and Orion are used. And no, I don't see Congress deciding to use the private sector to help out - and least not on Trump's watch.

Well it would be substantially less than doing the same on Mars. 

Offline Danderman

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #52 on: 12/12/2017 02:24 AM »
Budgets are policy.

Online AncientU

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #53 on: 12/12/2017 04:25 AM »
...
 
“After 45 years, it is time to return humans to the region of the Moon even as we look toward Mars,” Dr. Dittmar said. “The Coalition is proud to support NASA and to help bring about this exciting future. We congratulate the Trump Administration on its bold vision and commitment to American leadership in space.”
 
...robotic landers, ...

Mary Lynn apparently doesn't think much of landing people on the Moon. 
Pretty striking departure from today's message.  Wonder why?
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #54 on: 12/12/2017 05:24 AM »
I think this is a good first step. If Trump does the following, this may become real.

Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #55 on: 12/12/2017 06:36 AM »
With all due respect; Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Snr, Clinton, GW Bush and Obama didn't have 'Kennedy Moments' and I doubt anyone else will, either. The Trump Administration is having 'speed wobbles' over a number of things. If a partisan Congress and Senate don't get behind this initiative then we may have another 'Constellation' on our hands. But I would be delighted to be wrong.
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Offline woods170

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #56 on: 12/12/2017 07:10 AM »
The guy you have to blame is named Nixon, not Obama. Nixon is the one that steered the USA away from the Moon, all the way back to LEO. And once the USA was stuck there, courtesy of the space shuttle and the space station sucking the NASA budget dry, there was no real chance of going back into deep space.
LBJ, not Nixon, was President when Apollo/Saturn V and Apollo Applications were cut back.  Future Saturn V production was cut in the months before Nixon was elected, leading to cancellation of Apollos 18-20, etc.. 

But honestly, it wouldn't have mattered who was elected in 1968.  The American people didn't want to spend any more money on lunar landings.  Today's generation will apparently have to rediscover the reason why ...

 - Ed Kyle
The scale-down of Apollo under LBJ is of no importance in this discussion. The "what next?" decision was made under Nixon. His administration had the choice between continuing BLEO exploration efforts or the space shuttle. Nixon et al. chose the latter. It is IMO that particular decision that killed NASA manned BLEO efforts for 4+ decades.

Offline woods170

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #57 on: 12/12/2017 07:12 AM »
...
 
“After 45 years, it is time to return humans to the region of the Moon even as we look toward Mars,” Dr. Dittmar said. “The Coalition is proud to support NASA and to help bring about this exciting future. We congratulate the Trump Administration on its bold vision and commitment to American leadership in space.”
 
...robotic landers, ...

Mary Lynn apparently doesn't think much of landing people on the Moon. 
Pretty striking departure from today's message.  Wonder why?
A sense of financial reality.

Simply put: without a significant increase in NASA budget OR a radical departure from traditional government contracting, there is no way that NASA will be able to put humans on the surface on the Moon.

Offline woods170

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #58 on: 12/12/2017 07:20 AM »
Constellation or no Constellation: I believe it was very wrong to redirect America away from the Moon after Obama made his - essentially - 'been there; done that' statements. It's one of the few things I wont forgive him for. But since I'm not an American voter; I'm fully aware that my annoyance for that is impotent :'(

It is what it is. People like me are 'Space Cadets'. Even if intended to be pejorative - I'd still wear that label with pride...
Wrong. The guy you have to blame is named Nixon, not Obama. Nixon is the one that steered the USA away from the Moon, all the way back to LEO. And once the USA was stuck there, courtesy of the space shuttle and the space station sucking the NASA budget dry, there was no real chance of going back into deep space.
Most of us are well aware of the Nixon era history and it's context - but I was not speaking about that era - at all. The GW Bush and Obama years are whole different beast; and that is established fact. There were several options open to him; continue Apollo Lunar and possible expand it, go with the Shuttle and the Space Station and LEO, or go with the third option - Shuttle alone. And that's what we got. The GW Bush and Obama era was a chance to erase that mistake and the errors after Challenger & Columbia But some errors continued onwards, regardless. Constellation could ave been pragmatically altered - not bloody cancelled outright.
You do realize that changing course is what Democrats and Republicans do when they take over from each other?

- Bush sr.: Moon first, Mars later
- Clinton: Forget the Moon. Mars eventually.
- Bush jr.: Moon first, Mars later
- Obama: Forget the Moon. Asteroids, and Mars eventually
- Trump: Moon first, Mars later

Is see a pattern here.
Once Trump is replaced by a Democrat president the focus will shift, once again. Simply because space policy is not set along "what is good for the country" but along "what is good for the party-in-charge".

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Trump Space Policy Directive 1
« Reply #59 on: 12/12/2017 07:31 AM »
Constellation or no Constellation: I believe it was very wrong to redirect America away from the Moon after Obama made his - essentially - 'been there; done that' statements. It's one of the few things I wont forgive him for. But since I'm not an American voter; I'm fully aware that my annoyance for that is impotent :'(

It is what it is. People like me are 'Space Cadets'. Even if intended to be pejorative - I'd still wear that label with pride...
Wrong. The guy you have to blame is named Nixon, not Obama. Nixon is the one that steered the USA away from the Moon, all the way back to LEO. And once the USA was stuck there, courtesy of the space shuttle and the space station sucking the NASA budget dry, there was no real chance of going back into deep space.
Most of us are well aware of the Nixon era history and it's context - but I was not speaking about that era - at all. The GW Bush and Obama years are whole different beast; and that is established fact. There were several options open to him; continue Apollo Lunar and possible expand it, go with the Shuttle and the Space Station and LEO, or go with the third option - Shuttle alone. And that's what we got. The GW Bush and Obama era was a chance to erase that mistake and the errors after Challenger & Columbia But some errors continued onwards, regardless. Constellation could ave been pragmatically altered - not bloody cancelled outright.
You do realize that changing course is what Democrats and Republicans do when they take over from each other?

- Bush sr.: Moon first, Mars later
- Clinton: Forget the Moon. Mars eventually.
- Bush jr.: Moon first, Mars later
- Obama: Forget the Moon. Asteroids, and Mars eventually
- Trump: Moon first, Mars later

Is see a pattern here.
Once Trump is replaced by a Democrat president the focus will shift, once again. Simply because space policy is not set along "what is good for the country" but along "what is good for the party-in-charge".
Obviously, the two need not be mutually exclusive. I would think - at least I interpret it thus - that what is 'best' for a country's space program is to be progressive over time; building on the achievements of the past; even if it has to have a new Administrations' 'spin' on what progress is. My opinion - for what it's worth as a non-U.S. citizen and taxpayer - is that the Moon should not have been abandoned during the Obama era. We've had nigh on a decade of a great deal of money spent, but arguably little progress and nowhere went to :(
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