Author Topic: Once and for all, FACT: COTS monies were used for Falcon 9 development  (Read 9276 times)

Offline Jim

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From this thread

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43851.msg1732217#msg1732217


No, it is fact. It is sourced on the wikipedia Falcon 9 article, with a quote directly from Shotwell.

Quote
NASA ultimately gave us about $396 million; SpaceX put in over $450 million ... [for an] EELV-class launch vehcle ... as well as a capsule

Repeating this.  COTS money was used for Falcon development.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 06:29 PM by Jim »


Offline ncb1397

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Repeating this.  COTS money was used for Falcon development.

Considering that SpaceX was essentially broke after the 4th Falcon 1 flight, it has always been obvious that CRS milestone payments and COTS payments sustained them during Falcon 9 development.

Offline jpo234

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Repeating this.  COTS money was used for Falcon development.

Considering that SpaceX was essentially broke after the 4th Falcon 1 flight, it has always been obvious that CRS milestone payments and COTS payments sustained them during Falcon 9 development.
Not just SpaceX, but Elon personally stared into the abyss. SpaceX was saved by COTS and Tesla was saved by Daimler.
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline Lar

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This is to correct the misinformation that has been spread at all these places:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43290.msg1703332#msg1703332

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38021.msg1675629#msg1675629

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41712.msg1621851#msg1621851

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39540.msg1494911#msg1494911

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40640.msg1705725#msg1705725

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37873.msg1394631#msg1394631

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35157.msg1229497#msg1229497

Good work saving all those links.

Whenever I see a state government say "we are spending all the lottery money on schools" I laugh. Because it's one big budget... lottery money is one income source among many, schools are one expenditure among many.

NASA bought a service which had multiple components, multiple deliverables, multiple milestones.... Did SpaceX money fund Dragon and NASA fund F9? or was it the other way around? Or half and half?

Answer: You can't say. It doesn't work that way.  I don't think that anyone disputes that SpaceX got money from NASA. Or SES, or Iridium, or the government of Taiwan, etc.
« Last Edit: 10/05/2017 07:00 PM by Lar »
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Offline meekGee

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Who cares.

The question is whether SpaceX became a stagnant government-dependent risk-averse contractor, or did they retain their drive, innovation, independence, while also servicing government contracts.

This is what matters and the answer to that is clear.
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Offline Ludus

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Or is SpaceX funding NASA by offering drastically lower bids for launch services they need than they could ever get from another contractor or by any other means?

Offline Jim

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Who cares.


Many care, hence the number of links
The rest has nothing to do with the topic

Offline Jim

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Or is SpaceX funding NASA by offering drastically lower bids for launch services they need than they could ever get from another contractor or by any other means?

Spacex has only launched one spacecraft for NASA

Offline Ludus

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Or is SpaceX funding NASA by offering drastically lower bids for launch services they need than they could ever get from another contractor or by any other means?

Spacex has only launched one spacecraft for NASA

Cargo/Crew support of the ISS isnít part of the NASA budget?

Offline envy887

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Many care, hence the number of links
...

TIL that "many" = Coastal Ron.

Offline McDew

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From by personnel experience with NASA HQ during the COTS procurement, they were very forth comming in admitting that the one of the objectives of the COTS procurement was to fund development of a Delta II replacement.

Online spacenut

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Anyone could have bid on COTS.  Anyone.  SpaceX used the money more wisely than others. or it wasn't enough for others.  They had a plan for Falcon 5, later Falcon 9, and they had developed the Merlin engine on their own dime.  They got the contract and used the money wisely and developed Falcon 9.  Now that allowed them to launch private satellites as well as service ISS.  Yes it helped get them over the hump.  Lockheed and Boeing have taken far more money from the government to do things for far longer.  The good thing about COTS is NASA didn't tell SpaceX or Orbital how to develop their engines or rockets, just the capability to deliver the payloads.  This is how they should have developed SLS.  Get Boeing or Lockheed or Grumman to develop a rocket to deliver say 100 tons to LEO.  Then choose the lowest cost provider.  They probably should get out of the launch vehicle business now, and just concentrate on payloads for these various vehicles. 

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Or is SpaceX funding NASA by offering drastically lower bids for launch services they need than they could ever get from another contractor or by any other means?

Spacex has only launched one spacecraft for NASA
As has Antares.

Offline ZachF

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Money is fungible. This is pedantic.

Offline meekGee

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Who cares.


Many care, hence the number of links
The rest has nothing to do with the topic

Actually, most people care about SpaceX's achievements and future plans.

Some, however, care about that F9S2 is not reusable, and that BFR is not 12m but "only" 9.

Hence the premise of this thread.
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Online AncientU

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Possibly the best $396M spent by the USG this century.
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Offline QuantumG

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I believe the claim is that SpaceX didn't receive the money for Falcon 9 development, they received it for Dragon development and used it for Falcon 9 development... but even that isn't 100% correct as there were explicit payments for Falcon 9 risk reduction.
Jeff Bezos has billions to spend on rockets and can go at whatever pace he likes! Wow! What pace is he going at? Well... have you heard of Zeno's paradox?

Offline meekGee

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I believe the claim is that SpaceX didn't receive the money for Falcon 9 development, they received it for Dragon development and used it for Falcon 9 development... but even that isn't 100% correct as there were explicit payments for Falcon 9 risk reduction.
And in either case, what's the OP's point exactly?

SpaceX developed and is operating F9 and Dragon (and Merlin, and FH) for much less than what the competition charge, and has done it with a fraction of the manpower.

If you look at how much of that pie was government money, it's even a smaller fraction.

Even before you count little annual $1B payments for "assurance".

And since there is no argument on whether SpaceX received government payments for work it has performed, what is the premise here?
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Offline savuporo

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NASA bought a service which had multiple components, multiple deliverables, multiple milestones.... Did SpaceX money fund Dragon and NASA fund F9? or was it the other way around? Or half and half?

Answer: You can't say. It doesn't work that way. ..

Yes you can, when contracts and NASA press releases explicitly say so.

Quote
the first nine engine firing of its Falcon 9 launch vehicle at its Texas Test Facility outside McGregor on July 31st. A second firing on August 1st completed a major NASA Commercial Orbital Transportation Services (COTS) milestone almost two months early.
..
ďThis was the most difficult milestone in development of the Falcon 9 launch vehicle

https://www.nasa.gov/offices/c3po/home/spacex_9enginefire.html
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