Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 9  (Read 1078200 times)

Offline SeeShells

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@Shell
Here is one of the very first simulations I posted. Remember when all we had to go on were the dimensions we could extract from the photo images in the "Anomalous" paper? This is that cavity on start-up excited by a drummed up source. It was showing the start-up of the frustum from power on, probably the first 32 cycles of a run. November 2014.

Steve
Thanks Aero.  :) I've not seen this one, it was half a year before I joined NSF. It looks like a 1/4 Wl dipole positioned in the center, between the endplates. Do you remember what fields were being shown in the simulation?

My Very Best,
Shell

Offline MazonDel

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It's important to note that at this point we were looking at and just starting to understand the importance of the antenna and how it couples with the fields in a frustum, which proved to be a very critical component of the builds.

If you don't mind SeeShells, would you (or anyone else), be willing to give a short explanation as to what has gone on regarding revelations with the antenna? I've been away from the forums for quite some time and am quite interested in this.

Thanks!
You could start by reviewing the work done by monomorphic on this site using FEKO where he has posted dozens of videos on youtube with not only different geometries of frustums but different antennas. Aero also did dozens of simulations using MEEP that are posted here over the last few years although they are harder to find as the search function on the NSF site isn't the best. Oh, we also did designs of frustums driven by waveguides.
https://www.youtube.com/user/monomorph1/videos?shelf_id=1&view=0&sort=dd

What we did find out is exciting a TE012 or TE013 required a loop to couple into the fields. First attachment.

This also can be a modified loop like the one Eugene Samsonov did in his tests in the second attachment. http://vixra.org/pdf/1603.0153v1.pdf While he didn't see any thrusts I liked his antenna design for coupling in a TE012 in the endplate.

Eagleworks did thier report with a TM212 and a TE012 mode http://libertariannews.org//wp-content//uploads//2014//07//AnomalousThrustProductionFromanRFTestDevice-BradyEtAl.pdf.


My Best,
Shell

Thanks for the update Shell! Very interesting to see this. I now can't help but envision future drives as a metal cone with an old spiky TV antenna filling up the inside! :D

Offline Peter Lauwer

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...
This also can be a modified loop like the one Eugene Samsonov did in his tests in the second attachment. http://vixra.org/pdf/1603.0153v1.pdf While he didn't see any thrusts I liked his antenna design for coupling in a TE012 in the endplate.
...

These kind of loops (described by Zhang et al. [ref]) can be seen as 'clover leaf antenna's-on-a-plane', isn't it?

[1] Hai Zhang et al., Research on Novel Loop Antenna in Microwave Cavity Measurement of Permittivity, Int. J. of Information and Electronics Engineering, Vol. 3, No. 4, July 2013, pp. 396-398.
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.   — Richard Feynman

Offline Peter Lauwer

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The Windfreak SynthNV signal source/power detector + directional coupler to measure reflection ('S11')

I found the SynthNV (is anyone else but Jamie using it?) to be reasonable useful in finding the narrow resonances of microwave cavities in the range we are interested in. But... you have to scan rather narrow bands. Since the resonance line widths are of the order of 100-300 kHz, and the number of points you can choose in the network analyzer option has a maximum of 1000 (why so low? Is there a way to increase this?), you have to scan bands of 20 MHz or smaller. With sweep of 2-3 GHz you see nothing.

The test cavity I used is described in an earlier posting of mine [ https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41732.msg1625266#msg1625266 and https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41732.msg1625271#msg1625271. Inner diam. = 98 mm, length 130 mm.
 
The measured resonance frequencies and widths of the few lines I compared do very well agree with the measurements with the professional VNA (Agilent E8364B):
line @ 2132.9 MHz, line width (-3 dB) 180 kHz, see picture below (VNA: 2132.8 MHz, line width not recorded).
line @ 3759.2 Mhz, line width (-3 dB) 300 kHz (VNA: 3759.0 MHz, width 270 kHz).
Etc.

3rd figure: S11 measurement with VNA (Agilent) 1.5 - 4.0 GHz.

The directional coupler used was a Minicircuits ZABDC20-322H-S+

Website Windfreak: www.windfreaktech.com

Cheers, Peter
« Last Edit: 05/11/2017 01:52 PM by Peter Lauwer »
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.   — Richard Feynman

Offline SeeShells

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...
This also can be a modified loop like the one Eugene Samsonov did in his tests in the second attachment. http://vixra.org/pdf/1603.0153v1.pdf While he didn't see any thrusts I liked his antenna design for coupling in a TE012 in the endplate.
...

These kind of loops (described by Zhang et al. [ref]) can be seen as 'clover leaf antenna's-on-a-plane', isn't it?

[1] Hai Zhang et al., Research on Novel Loop Antenna in Microwave Cavity Measurement of Permittivity, Int. J. of Information and Electronics Engineering, Vol. 3, No. 4, July 2013, pp. 396-398.
Yes Peter they are the same thought of design. As is the Cloverleaf as seen here on my desk.

One of my designs after I fried into a matchstick a simple dipole driving a waveguide was a modification to the simple wire shape to a cone which increased the bandwidth and helped with frying antennas. Second image.

My Very Best,
Shell

Online aero

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@Shell
Here is one of the very first simulations I posted. Remember when all we had to go on were the dimensions we could extract from the photo images in the "Anomalous" paper? This is that cavity on start-up excited by a drummed up source. It was showing the start-up of the frustum from power on, probably the first 32 cycles of a run. November 2014.

Steve
Thanks Aero.  :) I've not seen this one, it was half a year before I joined NSF. It looks like a 1/4 Wl dipole positioned in the center, between the endplates. Do you remember what fields were being shown in the simulation?

My Very Best,
Shell

Don't know Shell. That was back when we were struggling with cavity dimensions and didn't fully comprehend what other factors might be important, too. It has been a path of discovery as you well know.
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline TheTraveller

Guys,

So how much funding can I raise when I demo a P-P thruster on a rotary test rig doing at least 20 revs with constant acceleration?

Time to get our asses off this rock.

Phil
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline RotoSequence

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Guys,

So how much funding can I raise when I demo a P-P thruster on a rotary test rig doing at least 20 revs with constant acceleration?

Time to get our asses off this rock.

Phil

That depends on how many Venture Capitalists and other big spenders you can convince that you have the real deal. The proof, as always, is in the pudding!

Offline TheTraveller

Guys,

So how much funding can I raise when I demo a P-P thruster on a rotary test rig doing at least 20 revs with constant acceleration?

Time to get our asses off this rock.

Phil

That depends on how many Venture Capitalists and other big spenders you can convince that you have the real deal. The proof, as always, is in the pudding!

Forgot to add:

Big breakthrough last week.
0.5N with 100W or 5N/kWrf.
You can feel the thrust, approx 50g of force, if you hold the thruster in your hand, and the Rf is cycled On & Off.
« Last Edit: 05/11/2017 10:03 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline RotoSequence

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Guys,

So how much funding can I raise when I demo a P-P thruster on a rotary test rig doing at least 20 revs with constant acceleration?

Time to get our asses off this rock.

Phil

That depends on how many Venture Capitalists and other big spenders you can convince that you have the real deal. The proof, as always, is in the pudding!

Forgot to add:

Big breakthrough last week.
0.5N with 100W or 5N/kWrf.
You can feel the thrust, if you hold the thruster in your hand, and the Rf is cycled On & Off.



...but I need evidence!

Offline TheTraveller

Guys,

So how much funding can I raise when I demo a P-P thruster on a rotary test rig doing at least 20 revs with constant acceleration?

Time to get our asses off this rock.

Phil

That depends on how many Venture Capitalists and other big spenders you can convince that you have the real deal. The proof, as always, is in the pudding!

Forgot to add:

Big breakthrough last week.
0.5N with 100W or 5N/kWrf.
You can feel the thrust, if you hold the thruster in your hand, and the Rf is cycled On & Off.



...but I need evidence!

Evidence has been there since 2002.

Yet all ignored,  including the Yang, SPR & EW peer reviewed papers.
Now NASA funds Woodward because Dr. White only delivered a few snow flakes of force using a thruster design that operated well below cutoff.

Was lucky to deliver even that amount of thrust plus the torsion pendulum did not allow significant acceleration capability. At least Jamie's design allows significant acceleration distance.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Online tchernik

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Evidence has been there since 2002.

Yet all ignored,  including the Yang, SPR & EW peer reviewed papers.
Now NASA funds Woodward because Dr. White only delivered a few snow flakes of force using a thruster design that operated well below cutoff.

Was lucky to deliver even that amount of thrust plus the torsion pendulum did not allow significant acceleration capability. At least Jamie's design allows significant acceleration distance.

I think RotoSequence means your evidence.

If you had pictures, charts, videos to show that would be greatly appreciated and it would give a lot more weight to your claims.

Online ThinkerX

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Guys,

So how much funding can I raise when I demo a P-P thruster on a rotary test rig doing at least 20 revs with constant acceleration?

Time to get our asses off this rock.

Phil

That depends on how many Venture Capitalists and other big spenders you can convince that you have the real deal. The proof, as always, is in the pudding!

Forgot to add:

Big breakthrough last week.
0.5N with 100W or 5N/kWrf.
You can feel the thrust, approx 50g of force, if you hold the thruster in your hand, and the Rf is cycled On & Off.

Ok, that is an extremely cryptic update.

So, I have to ask:

any pics or movies to share with the rest of us?  How about nifty graphs and charts?  (from this round of experiments, not old rehash from Shawyer)

And, most critically, did you account for false positives - everything from thermal to Lorentz to torque issues?  Also increasingly important.

If you have any of this, post it here so the number guys and engineers can tear into it.


Offline Slyver

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I agree. However, giving heated debates in the past between  TT on one side and fierce opposition on the other - like Mr. Members and Dr. Rodal (I respect them of course too). I am not sure this will be a neutral scientific debate.

If TT were to give us something to work with, his data would be analyzed, and experimental criticisms would be based on thoughtful analysis, and should be listened to. Any opposition that has occurred in the past has generally been because data has not been presented, or reasoned criticisms have not been countered by reasoned argument.

I would like to suggest that, "fierce opposition" is a requirement as a path to proof, unless and until such proof exists as to unquestionably eliminate all possible doubt (someone sends an EMdrive ship to Jupiter e.g.). I don't think that anyone (else) believes that such proof has yet been presented. One person believing it is insufficient for the scientific method, and thank god that is so.

We all are here because we want to believe. Or at least that is why I am here, but I cannot do so without sufficient evidence, both because I have been trained as a scientist, and because it would be irresponsible to do so. To quote W.K. Clifford from The Ethics of Belief:

"...it is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence…"

If so many trained, intelligent, analytical scientists WHO WANT TO BELIEVE are saying the evidence is insufficient, it falls to the experimenter to provide more evidence. This is not an attack on the experimenter, on the contrary, it is a plea to give us more, so we too can believe.

I really want to believe. Convince me. If I tell you why I am not convinced, and I use logic and reason to do so, don’t take it personally, for God’s sake, address my concerns directly (not with repetition). This is the only way these things can work.


Slyver


P.S. On the other side, when addressing concerns of someone’s experiment, it is very important to use as measured a voice as possible. Realize, no matter your intent, you are attacking someone’s work, their time, their energy, their thoughts, in some cases their very soul (at least I am sure it feels that way). Try really, really hard to recognize that fact, and go out of your way to BE KIND!

/soapbox
« Last Edit: 05/12/2017 06:06 AM by Slyver »

Offline meberbs

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P.S. On the other side, when addressing concerns of someone’s experiment, it is very important to use as measured a voice as possible. Realize, no matter your intent, you are attacking someone’s work, their time, their energy, their thoughts, in some cases their very soul (at least I am sure it feels that way). Try really, really hard to recognize that fact, and go out of your way to BE KIND!
You make a lot of very good points. While I don't always succeed, I try to keep such things in mind. At this point I personally am not able to ignore all past history when it comes to TheTraveller. He has convinced me that he does not understand basic concepts such as the standard definition of a force, and his repeated refusals to engage with me on clarifying this have convinced me that he will never listen to me. As such, any comments I do make would be for sharing my thoughts with the wider audience that reads here.

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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The Windfreak SynthNV signal source/power detector + directional coupler to measure reflection ('S11')

I found the SynthNV (is anyone else but Jamie using it?) to be reasonable useful in finding the narrow resonances of microwave cavities in the range we are interested in. But... you have to scan rather narrow bands. Since the resonance line widths are of the order of 100-300 kHz, and the number of points you can choose in the network analyzer option has a maximum of 1000 (why so low? Is there a way to increase this?), you have to scan bands of 20 MHz or smaller. With sweep of 2-3 GHz you see nothing.

Had a quick eyeball at a number of pages/documents/tests of the SynthNV and while I didn't really verify it, my guess is that the 1000 points limit was imposed due to internal memory limits and to keep the sweep speed "high enough"; that said, and if I'm not wrong, eyeballing the programming documents (e.g. this), sounds like it may be possible, at the cost of a slower sweep speed, to write some code on the controlling computer which, sending commands over USB will perform a sweep for a broader range; the slowdown will be due to the fact that, in such a "mode", it won't be the device to perform the sweep and return the results but the controlling computer which will send commands one after another and get back results

What else... yes, while searching for infos, I found this and, aside from the SynthNV test, the page also contains some interesting links, like the one to these probes  ;)

[edit]

you may also be interested in these

https://github.com/CQTools/windfreak-pycontrol

https://github.com/nacs-lab/py-windfreak

https://github.com/nsteins/Labview

[Edit #2]

I also found this http://miniradiosolutions.com/54-2/ :)





« Last Edit: 05/12/2017 10:24 AM by ThatOtherGuy »

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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Guys,

So how much funding can I raise when I demo a P-P thruster on a rotary test rig doing at least 20 revs with constant acceleration?

Time to get our asses off this rock.

Phil

That depends on how many Venture Capitalists and other big spenders you can convince that you have the real deal. The proof, as always, is in the pudding!

Forgot to add:

Big breakthrough last week.
0.5N with 100W or 5N/kWrf.
You can feel the thrust, approx 50g of force, if you hold the thruster in your hand, and the Rf is cycled On & Off.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

So, do you have papers/charts/images or whatever to show ? Otherwise, well, I think that people should consider your claim ... just an unconfirmed claim.


Offline Peter Lauwer

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EM drive comic.
LOL
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.   — Richard Feynman

Offline qraal

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I remember reading someone saying that about the Dean Drive too.

Adam


Forgot to add:

Big breakthrough last week.
0.5N with 100W or 5N/kWrf.
You can feel the thrust, approx 50g of force, if you hold the thruster in your hand, and the Rf is cycled On & Off.

Offline ThatOtherGuy

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EM drive comic.
LOL

Uhmmm... xkcd again ? Ok, so, you asked for this (in case you wonder it's the schematic for a new and revolutionary space propulsion system)

 ;D

[edit]

in case of doubt, please check this out


« Last Edit: 05/12/2017 01:02 PM by ThatOtherGuy »

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