Author Topic: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats  (Read 280430 times)

Offline gin455res

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1400 on: 12/28/2017 09:37 PM »
Add a velodrome to the Mars colony site for great exercise! You could actually make your own g's, I calculated a 4.5 meter radius cylinder at 6.7 meters per second would make one g. Or how about having a circular path on the BFR so you could make your own g's while on the way to Mars. Get your exercise and g conditioning at the same time!

Offline Paul451

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1401 on: 12/29/2017 08:23 AM »
Add a velodrome to the Mars colony site for great exercise!

Somewhere between 20 and 25 RPM, around 1.5-2g combined. Running.

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1402 on: 12/29/2017 09:19 AM »
I dont see domes happening because of radiation. Domes are a staple of how a sci-fi colony looks like, but a more realistic design will be as much underground as possible. Especially if we are talking about an actual colony where people live and procreate long-term, and not just for six months.

Offline Cheapchips

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1403 on: 12/29/2017 10:22 AM »
Add a velodrome to the Mars colony site for great exercise! You could actually make your own g's, I calculated a 4.5 meter radius cylinder at 6.7 meters per second would make one g. Or how about having a circular path on the BFR so you could make your own g's while on the way to Mars. Get your exercise and g conditioning at the same time! I am thinking bicycles to get the necessary speed.

I'd like to see HPV's as a large part of Mars habitats. It's 'free' exercise when moving around.

Offline Oersted

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1404 on: 12/29/2017 11:06 AM »
HPV?

OK, a bit of sleuthing came up with human-powered vehicles... http://www.whpva.org/hpv.html

- I don't think you can count on that being an acronym people would know, though!

Offline Cheapchips

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1405 on: 12/29/2017 12:20 PM »
- I don't think you can count on that being an acronym people would know, though!

Oops.  I didn't want to use bicycle as people immediately think diamond frame bikes.  That's a very narrow version of what a human powered vehicle can be.  There's not a practical need for in-habitat EV's for people or non industrial cargo.  Nothing's more that 30 minutes ride away on flat smooth surface. 

(although possibly would want automated delivery for light cargo, given workforce shortages).

Why waste batteries on EVs when you can have a simpler solution with secondary benefits.
« Last Edit: 12/29/2017 12:21 PM by Cheapchips »

Offline nacnud

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1406 on: 12/29/2017 12:52 PM »
I recognised HPV, but then I'm a fan of bikes etc.

Really good point with the bicycles to. I could quite easily see dockless ride share bikes being the main form of transport. Three wheel cargo electric bikes could also be made autonomous with just the addition of a smartphone and power steering and brakes. That gives you light cargo delivery plus independence for those unable (or unwilling) to peddle themselfs.

Offline moreno7798

Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1407 on: 01/06/2018 04:36 AM »
I dont see domes happening because of radiation. Domes are a staple of how a sci-fi colony looks like, but a more realistic design will be as much underground as possible. Especially if we are talking about an actual colony where people live and procreate long-term, and not just for six months.

If you think about it, what is one of the most successful organisms in nature? Ants come to mind.

Deep underground habitats provide the perfect protection from radiation, climate, as well as space debris. On earth, this has been the case for ants. The deeper you go, the better off you'll be. Also, if it were up to me, I would put all food farms and equipment deep underground - again, protection is paramount. I do understand the need for a psychological outdoor-like space - perhaps for recreation. This could be the role of domes on Mars. Although, besides solar panels for power production, nothing of importance should be exposed at the surface until a mature colony has developed with enough materials and resources to quickly replace anything lost to natural disasters.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2018 02:00 AM by moreno7798 »

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1408 on: 01/06/2018 05:07 AM »
I dont see domes happening because of radiation. Domes are a staple of how a sci-fi colony looks like, but a more realistic design will be as much underground as possible. Especially if we are talking about an actual colony where people live and procreate long-term, and not just for six months.

If you think about it, what is one of the most successful organisms in nature? Ants come to mind.

Deep underground habitats provide the perfect protection from radiation, climate, as well as space debris. On earth, this has been for ants. The deeper you go, the better off you'll be. Also, if it were up to me, I would put all food farms and equipment deep underground - again, protection is paramount. I do understand the need for a psychological outdoor-like space - perhaps for recreation. Although, besides solar panels for power production, nothing of importance should be exposed at the surface until a mature colony has developed with enough materials and resources to quickly replace anything lost to natural disasters.

I absolutely see domes happening. Not like Elon Musk mentioned as the main habitats for people. But people have the need to look outside, not only through TV screens. So domes as a recreational area, places to go to to relax. Plants really don't suffer from that radiation level. Maybe seating areas can be covered with solid roofs but occasional exposure to these levels won't do harm. Robotbeat calculated that a 5 day 8 hour work schedule on the surface would not exceed radiation worker exposure limits.

Offline Oersted

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1409 on: 01/09/2018 10:40 PM »
Weirdly, the knowledge that domes are hugely difficult to build in a near-vacuum seems to disappear from this thread every two pages. The down-force needed on them is tremendous.

If you want domes it would be a better to have inverse, hanging domes with their structural weight counter-acting the suction of atmospheric near-vacuum. The structural strength of a dome acts inwards, not outwards.

Offline Paul451

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1410 on: 01/10/2018 12:41 AM »
The structural strength of a dome acts inwards, not outwards.

Not entirely. Domes still act as half-spheres to distribute internal pressure around the dome. Unfortunately, being half-spheres, you have in effect cut through all of the force-carrying great-circles, except the rim. So all of the distribution of force ends up pulling on the rim. That's why domes suck for internal pressure. (The same process is why domes (arches, etc) are so good at dealing with outside pressure and their own mass. The external force is neatly channelled outwards from the ceiling to the rim, then downwards into the foundations, instead of pulling down on a unsupported ceiling.)

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1411 on: 01/10/2018 02:42 AM »
The structural strength of a dome acts inwards, not outwards.

Not entirely. Domes still act as half-spheres to distribute internal pressure around the dome. Unfortunately, being half-spheres, you have in effect cut through all of the force-carrying great-circles, except the rim. So all of the distribution of force ends up pulling on the rim.
That's not a problem, just use deep anchors.
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Offline MickQ

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1412 on: 01/11/2018 10:01 AM »
Here we go again !

Offline sghill

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1413 on: 01/11/2018 10:16 AM »
Here we go again !

Massive eye rolls from the audience!
Bring the thunder!

Offline TripD

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1414 on: 01/12/2018 04:37 AM »
I can't tell.  Are his eyes tracing out a dome or a full sphere?

Online Lar

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1415 on: 01/12/2018 05:24 AM »
They are tracing out the words "don't go there, don't have that argument again, it's boring" on a screen perched halfway up the flat ceiling.

Which is really convenient, as that way I don't have to say it.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline Ludus

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1416 on: 01/12/2018 05:45 PM »
The latest stories about glaciers 300m thick just below the surface emphasize the idea that what you build as a habitat depends on the circumstances and local conditions.

Underground doesn’t have to be tunnels and small spaces. If you’re excavating water ice anyway it’s effectively free to make large underground spaces if you plan for them. If you build into glaciers that you want to locate near anyway the main architectural detail is the roof or cap you keep in place as you hollow out volume. That can be as massive as needed to retain atmosphere.

A volume 300m deep extending eventually for thousands of meters could be spacious enough to seem outdoors even though it’s underground. Water would be plentiful and could be used freely in design with lakes or waterfalls down the terraced sides of the rockface.

The objection that building a city in a glacier would be cold seems easily addressed since aerogels can be made with local materials and are excellent insulators so the warm inhabited volume could be separated from the ice face. Sunlight could be piped in or simulated.

The city would be started along the edge of a glacier so there’s a rock face and and an ice face that’s insulated and a growing volume between as ice is removed. The space would first grow down to the base of the glacier along the rock face. Habitats would be built in terraces on the rock face open to the excavated chamber and connected to tunnels and underground facilities on the other side.

The effect would be something like a very large spacious dome 1000’ tall but with habitations along the terraced rock face. Because it’s based on local features it’s cheaper to build than a dome and could be started and inhabited very early in a settlement and gradually expanded. The ongoing excavation of water ice to make propellant, water, oxygen would constantly expand the livable volume.

Most habitations would be on the terraced rockface so they have a side facing the “outdoor” volume and a side facing the rock. Every such dwelling or habitat could expand as needed underground. Utilities, storage, machinery could be located as needed on the underground side with the “outdoor” side left largely to be a beautiful public space. As the city grows it might also have buildings rising from the floor of the volume or even suspended from the roof.

This sort of city could have an O’Neill space colony sort of feel eventually with spacious vistas of enclosed volume with trees, rivers and landscaping, but actually grow organically like a traditional city without a predefined master plan inside a hull. Like an O’Neill colony it could locate farms, power plants, industry and anything it wants outside of view of the public spaces of the city. In this case by boring laterally into the rock face to create spaces for them.
« Last Edit: 01/12/2018 06:15 PM by Ludus »

Offline Paul451

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1417 on: 01/12/2018 09:55 PM »
Ludus,
You talk of green spaces and farming. Where do you envisage the light coming from? (O'Neill colonies have giant windows and mirrors, and orbit facing permanently at the sun.)

Concentrator-reflectors/light-pipes/etc don't work well on Mars, so for reflected light you are limited to 1:1 ratio of light:opening (ie, you can use a moving non-concentrator mirror to reflect sunlight into the opening, but it's only equivalent to having the same size opening facing the sun.) And if you use completely artificial light, you have the added power demand.

Offline speedevil

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1418 on: 01/12/2018 11:04 PM »
Ludus,
You talk of green spaces and farming. Where do you envisage the light coming from? (O'Neill colonies have giant windows and mirrors, and orbit facing permanently at the sun.)

Some numbers.
Potatoes, for near-optimum production are fine at 75W/m^2 of current LED lights (with long days)
Assuming 500W of solar input at martian distance, and 25% efficiencies of solar, that's about 1.6m^2 of potatos per m^2 of noonday sun.
Assuming the equator, and seasons and stuff, you conservatively get .4m^2 of reasonable light per square meter of solar panels.
Even if you only cover the very surface of the habitat with solar panels, that is enough to light 40% or so of it to levels adequate for growing crops.

This level of illumination is also fine for any plant other than ones which absolutely require full sun. Purely decorative planting can go a lot lower.

 ( http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43608.msg1766097#msg1766097 )

Online Dave G

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Re: Envisioning Amazing Martian Habitats
« Reply #1419 on: 01/13/2018 05:23 PM »
I dont see domes happening because of radiation. Domes are a staple of how a sci-fi colony looks like, but a more realistic design will be as much underground as possible. Especially if we are talking about an actual colony where people live and procreate long-term, and not just for six months.

Well said.  Or as Gwynne said at Stanford:
Quote from: Fireside Chat with SpaceX President Gwynne Shotwell, October 11, 2017
I don't think it's an accident that Elon started the Boring Company, tunnels will be very important in the first steps of living on Mars, before we build domes and terraform.

In other words, it won't be just domes, and it won't be just tunnels.  It will be both.  Domes for growing food.  Tunnels for living space that's shielded from space radiation.



« Last Edit: 01/13/2018 05:27 PM by Dave G »