Author Topic: Vector Space Systems  (Read 197279 times)

Online GWH

Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #720 on: 01/02/2018 03:47 PM »
Warning - very reddit.  ::)
Fluffy Pony pretends to be a nobody while Colin Cantrell pitches him his Nexus shitcoin at the TNABC

Gave that a full listen.
Fully explains and justifies the skepticism on this venture.

Offline ringsider

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« Last Edit: 01/05/2018 09:17 PM by ringsider »

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #722 on: 01/20/2018 11:40 AM »
Quote
Flight tanks for @vectorspacesys Block 1 orbital vehicle ready for integration.  Planned launch in July 2018.  Stay tuned !

https://twitter.com/jamesncantrell/status/954571875513806849

Online Step55

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #723 on: 01/20/2018 12:51 PM »
For their own safety, I hope they have a competent structural steel fabricator.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #724 on: 01/24/2018 04:38 AM »
Quote
Prototype 2nd stage fuel tanks and fairing being attached for the first time today

https://twitter.com/vectorspacesys/status/956016800604573697

Offline ThePhugoid

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #725 on: 01/24/2018 11:22 PM »
Looks like the label on the tank might say "Scorpius".   Scorpius Space Launch Company sells "All-Composite Cryogenic Pressure Vessels" it says here:  http://www.scorpius.com/

 - Ed Kyle

Because nothing screams cost-effectiveness more than racing towards a 2018 orbital launch date with horizontal integration, a non-representative baseline vehicle, and architectural concept drawings of an empty factory.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #726 on: 01/24/2018 11:54 PM »
Looks like the label on the tank might say "Scorpius".   Scorpius Space Launch Company sells "All-Composite Cryogenic Pressure Vessels" it says here:  http://www.scorpius.com/

 - Ed Kyle

Because nothing screams cost-effectiveness more than racing towards a 2018 orbital launch date with horizontal integration, a non-representative baseline vehicle, and architectural concept drawings of an empty factory.

Your comment about horizontal integration seems a bit out of left field.... Most new launcher do that. Otherwise, yes, they do not seem anywhere close to being ready.

Offline ThePhugoid

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #727 on: 01/25/2018 12:02 AM »
Looks like the label on the tank might say "Scorpius".   Scorpius Space Launch Company sells "All-Composite Cryogenic Pressure Vessels" it says here:  http://www.scorpius.com/

 - Ed Kyle

Because nothing screams cost-effectiveness more than racing towards a 2018 orbital launch date with horizontal integration, a non-representative baseline vehicle, and architectural concept drawings of an empty factory.

Your comment about horizontal integration seems a bit out of left field.... Most new launcher do that. Otherwise, yes, they do not seem anywhere close to being ready.

Sure some do, but generally not when trying to hit the price point these guys are holding themselves to.  Hence the cost-effectiveness comment.

Offline IanThePineapple

Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #728 on: 01/25/2018 12:23 AM »
Looks like the label on the tank might say "Scorpius".   Scorpius Space Launch Company sells "All-Composite Cryogenic Pressure Vessels" it says here:  http://www.scorpius.com/

 - Ed Kyle

Because nothing screams cost-effectiveness more than racing towards a 2018 orbital launch date with horizontal integration, a non-representative baseline vehicle, and architectural concept drawings of an empty factory.

Your comment about horizontal integration seems a bit out of left field.... Most new launcher do that. Otherwise, yes, they do not seem anywhere close to being ready.

Sure some do, but generally not when trying to hit the price point these guys are holding themselves to.  Hence the cost-effectiveness comment.

You do realize both the Electron and Falcon 9/Heavy are horizontally integrated, and all 3 are the cheapest access to space in their respective lift categories.

Offline xyv

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #729 on: 01/25/2018 02:05 AM »
Perhaps ThePhugoid means "horizontal" as in "Space X is vertically integrated and makes everything in house..." (well almost everything).  Vertical integration is used to cut out all of the supplier margins.  Horizontal integration is what ULA does.

Offline deruch

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #730 on: 01/25/2018 02:41 AM »
Horizontal integration is what ULA does.

Not really.  They're not going out and buying up other launch providers.  Horizontal integration would be if ULA bought OrbitalATK so that by bringing Antares and Pegasus into their portfolio (or stopping their offering) they controlled more of the market. 
Shouldn't reality posts be in "Advanced concepts"?  --Nomadd

Offline vaporcobra

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #731 on: 01/25/2018 03:21 AM »
hmmmmmm. We're straying from the topic, but my understanding of a corporation that is not "vertically integrated" is one that instead subcontracts as much work as possible to groups/companies that are totally external. Which is precisely one of the largest differences between SpaceX and ULA (and Vector/Rocket Lab, in this case). Buying (custom or stock) parts from external groups and then integrating them and operating the products that result appears to be Vector's current mode of action.

Offline ThePhugoid

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #732 on: 01/25/2018 03:23 AM »
Perhaps ThePhugoid means "horizontal" as in "Space X is vertically integrated and makes everything in house..." (well almost everything).  Vertical integration is used to cut out all of the supplier margins.  Horizontal integration is what ULA does.

Yep, by a horizontally integrated vehicle I mean:
Tanks from one vendor
Sep systems from another vendor
Pressurization from another vendor
Engines from another vendor

All pieces with their own little mark-up and middlemen.
With some little bits between them all built in-house but not enough to bring costs down.

So by this metric I'm saying Falcon 9 is vertically integrated, while something like Antares is horizontally integrated (Engines - Energia, Stage 1 Core - Yuzhnoye, Castor 30 - OATK, etc.)

If you want to rush a rocket out the door, horizontal integration can do it for you.  But you sure aren't going to save any money.

Online gongora

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #733 on: 01/25/2018 03:28 AM »
I don't think that's actually a valid use of the term "horizontal integration".

Offline ThePhugoid

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #734 on: 01/25/2018 03:33 AM »
I don't think that's actually a valid use of the term "horizontal integration".

Alright well if you'd like to pick some more nits with me, you can say that the term applies to the organization that builds the vehicle, or the program that develops it.  Either way the fact remains that relying on suppliers to provide you flight-ready hardware they've developed on their own dime rather than designing, building, and integrating it all yourself will eventually come back to haunt anyone looking to drive launch costs to the floor.  Especially small launch providers.

Offline Bananas_on_Mars

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #735 on: 01/25/2018 05:25 AM »
SpaceX only manufactures inhouse what they can't source for a reasonable price, for quality reasons, lead times.
They still state they have suppliers in all 50 States...
And i'm sure not every part they brought inhouse for manufacture was as cheap or easy as they envisioned.
And the big carbon fiber tank Elon Musk showed at IAC 2016 wasn't manufactured inhouse either.

For me it's only reasonable to source the tanks outside if your factory isn't ready yet.
Autoclavs are not things that move easily, and for sure have long lead times.
I guess once they move into their new favtory, they will manufacture the tanks themselves. I think tanks manufacture takes up a lot of floor space and isn't the biggest hurdle on the way to an orbital launch vehicle.

With their planned cadence, it might still make sense to have an outside supplier later even if manufacturing some of the tanks themselves.


Online imprezive

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #736 on: 01/25/2018 08:01 AM »
SpaceX only manufactures inhouse what they can't source for a reasonable price, for quality reasons, lead times.
They still state they have suppliers in all 50 States...
And i'm sure not every part they brought inhouse for manufacture was as cheap or easy as they envisioned.
And the big carbon fiber tank Elon Musk showed at IAC 2016 wasn't manufactured inhouse either.

For me it's only reasonable to source the tanks outside if your factory isn't ready yet.
Autoclavs are not things that move easily, and for sure have long lead times.
I guess once they move into their new favtory, they will manufacture the tanks themselves. I think tanks manufacture takes up a lot of floor space and isn't the biggest hurdle on the way to an orbital launch vehicle.

With their planned cadence, it might still make sense to have an outside supplier later even if manufacturing some of the tanks themselves.

SpaceX is almost definitely the most vertically integrated major Aerospace OEM in North America. Itís arguably their biggest competitive advantage because it allows a development speed that just isnít possible with a web of major suppliers. Obviously they donít build everything in house as thatís not practical but they come as close as they reasonably can. That being said vertical integration is enormously expensive for a start up, I think Virgin Orbit is the only other rocket company thatís trying it. As a start up having one or two key vendors to partner with to spread risk and gain some investor credibility is a sound strategy IMO.

All that being said Vector posted some pictures of a winding machine so I was under the impression they were making their own tanks.

ďJust arrived our new composite winding machine! It will be used to wind carbon fiber fuel tanks and composite nozzlesĒ

https://twitter.com/vectorspacesys/status/908741131667570688?ref_src=twcamp%5Eshare%7Ctwsrc%5Em5%7Ctwgr%5Eemail%7Ctwcon%5E7046%7Ctwterm%5E1

Online Kryten

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #737 on: 01/25/2018 08:34 AM »
Looks like the label on the tank might say "Scorpius".   Scorpius Space Launch Company sells "All-Composite Cryogenic Pressure Vessels" it says here:  http://www.scorpius.com/

 - Ed Kyle
They also make composite engines at 20klbf and 5klbf, the same as Vector-R first and second stage engines.

Offline Bananas_on_Mars

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #738 on: 01/25/2018 11:54 AM »
The Scorpius engines are quite similar to the Vector engines, just for RP-1 and LOX.
I guess the difference is mainly in the injector, correct?

John Garvey used Scorpius composite cryogenic tanks on the Prospector-9 rocket back in 2008.

http://articles.sae.org/2866/

Online gongora

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Re: Vector Space Systems
« Reply #739 on: 01/25/2018 02:19 PM »
The second stage tanks with the Scorpius labels are referred to as prototypes, they could still be manufactured in-house later if it makes sense to do so.

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