Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 7  (Read 778088 times)

Offline TheTraveller

It is technically incorrect to compare results for dielectric inserts having completely different properties, and to refer to them simply as "they all are just dielectrics so they are a waste of time"

They are a waste of time because:

1) Roger abandoned using them after he built the Experimental EmDrive.

2) EW's best force results, using dielectrics, are approx equivalent to 3 SnowFlakes (30uN each).

Other than Roger's Experimental EmDrive results of 16mN at 850W and EW's 3 SnowFlakes, no one that I know has reported any Force generation using dielectrics in an EmDrive.

However we have a range of much more than a few SnowFlakes of experimental force results reported by NOT using dielectrics.
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Online Rodal

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...Maybe Paul can share the force EW measured when they ran the Alum frustum on the Teeter Totter balance beam and excited it with a 1.2kW maggie and without a dielectric. ...
Again, such a comparison would be interesting if and when NASA can share the results under identical testing conditions (compared as a function of Input Power, under same identical conditions: same testing apparatus, same atmospheric pressure, etc.) for both:

1) with a dielectric insert vs.

2) without a dielectric insert.

Discussion of force results without taking into account the testing conditions, testing apparatus, is misleading.

« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 02:56 PM by Rodal »

Online Rodal

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It is technically incorrect to compare results for dielectric inserts having completely different properties, and to refer to them simply as "they all are just dielectrics so they are a waste of time"

They are a waste of time because:

1) Roger abandoned using them after he built the Experimental EmDrive.

2) EW's best force results, using dielectrics, are approx equivalent to 3 SnowFlakes (30uN each).

Other than Roger's Experimental EmDrive results of 16mN at 850W and EW's 3 SnowFlakes, no one that I know has reported any Force generation using dielectrics in an EmDrive.

However we have a range of much more than a few SnowFlakes of experimental force results reported by NOT using dielectrics.
Since you continue to bunch up all dielectric inserts together without properly taking into account their different dielectric and other material properties, I will not continue answering any further posts from you on this matter until you properly take into account the technical material properties instead of bunching different material results saying "they are all dielectrics".

Also it is technically improper to bunch up, and compare the anomalous force measured by NASA and claimed by Shawyer, using different testing techniques, different apparatus, different mode shapes, different Q, different coupling, and different testing conditions, and very different standards of reporting (Shawyer has never even reported the full range of dimensions, for example, used in his claimed results, and never, ever reported a single test in partial vacuum).  For example, it is very improper to compare the force of 16mN that Shawyer claims with a different testing apparatus and conditions, using 850 Watts of input, with the forces reported by NASA, who reported the highest force/InputPower in their 2014 with just 2.6  Watts, in other words, 327 times more input power used by Shawyer ( http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results ).

I can see, and I hope I have clarified in my previous posts, the source of confusion that arises in this discussion about dielectrics.  This confusion is due to bunching up all dielectric materials together without properly taking into account their material properties and carefully considering the testing conditions.
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 02:33 PM by Rodal »

Offline TheTraveller

Since you continue to bunch up all dielectric inserts together without properly taking into account their different dielectric and other material properties, I will not continue answering any further posts from you on this matter until you properly take into account the technical material properties instead of bunching different material results saying "they are all dielectrics".

I have not asked you any questions about dielectrics as I have NO INTEREST in them. Dielectrics = very little, if any, force generation. End of story unless you have experimental data to show otherwise.

My question, which you jumped on and hijacked into talking about dielectrics, was to Paul and it was about how EW constructed their Aluminium frustum.

Please refrain from hijacking a question I directed to Paul.
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 02:37 PM by TheTraveller »
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Offline rfmwguy

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Since you continue to bunch up all dielectric inserts together without properly taking into account their different dielectric and other material properties, I will not continue answering any further posts from you on this matter until you properly take into account the technical material properties instead of bunching different material results saying "they are all dielectrics".

I have not asked you any questions about dielectrics as I have NO INTEREST in them. Dielectrics = very little, if any, force generation. End of story unless you have experimental data to show otherwise.

My question, which you jumped on and hijacked into talking about dielectrics, was to Paul and it was about how EW constructed their Aluminium frustum.

Please refrain from hijacking a question I directed to Paul.
I would agree that dielectrics are the least know commodity amongst active DIY participants. To my knowledge, only Eagleworks mentioned them a couple of years ago. Cannae might have, but their design is not a classic EMDrive.

There is no formal release of dielectric material, properties or dimensions that allowed me to use it in my design. In the use of dielectrics in the past, Q was lower and real estate was saved because of the dielectric constant being well above air. I am unaware of anything a dielectric could do to help create an emdrive effect...there is no accepted theory last time I checked.

If someone has advanced dielectric/theory facts, no reason to keep it withheld from DIY folks...I'll cut some Teflon of whatever...

Online Rodal

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Since you continue to bunch up all dielectric inserts together without properly taking into account their different dielectric and other material properties, I will not continue answering any further posts from you on this matter until you properly take into account the technical material properties instead of bunching different material results saying "they are all dielectrics".

I have not asked you any questions about dielectrics as I have NO INTEREST in them. Dielectrics = very little, if any, force generation. End of story unless you have experimental data to show otherwise.

My question, which you jumped on and hijacked into talking about dielectrics, was to Paul and it was about how EW constructed their Aluminium frustum.

Please refrain from hijacking a question I directed to Paul.
I would agree that dielectrics are the least know commodity amongst active DIY participants. To my knowledge, only Eagleworks mentioned them a couple of years ago. Cannae might have, but their design is not a classic EMDrive.

There is no formal release of dielectric material, properties or dimensions that allowed me to use it in my design. In the use of dielectrics in the past, Q was lower and real estate was saved because of the dielectric constant being well above air. I am unaware of anything a dielectric could do to help create an emdrive effect...there is no accepted theory last time I checked.

If someone has advanced dielectric/theory facts, no reason to keep it withheld from DIY folks...I'll cut some Teflon of whatever...

I don't understand your post.  I have a  number of posts previous to your posts quoting specific dielectric properties, and the mistake of bunching all dielectric materials together for this purpose as just "dielectrics".
Also, in previous threads, Star-Drive had a number of posts discussing the topic of dielectrics in detail (much more detail than we ever got from Shawyer, for example) , including the aforementioned aluminum frustum with a high electric permittivity material that resulted in low anomalous force.  Star-Drive has given dimensions, material properties, location, and theoretical justification for the dielectric used by NASA.  He even discussed a number of dielectric material results, including neoprene and ceramics.

Also NSF contributor Notsosureofit has discussed formulas including the effect of asymmetric dielectric inserts and his theoretical explanation for a force produced by asymmetric insertion of a dielectric.

NSF contributor Mulletron has a large number of posts with a huge number of references on why a dielectric crystal polymer could be the key to self-acceleration ( CP-symmetry violation ).

Prof. Woodward is of the opinion that NASA's results with a dielectric may be explainable by Woodward's Mach effect.

I would agree that dielectrics are the least know commodity amongst active DIY participants.

NSF contributor Zellerium (California Polytechnic State Univ., San Luis Obispo, Zeller, Kraft, Echols) has discussed his University project including the use of a dielectric insert in a constant cross-section cavity.

Why are you not taking into account Zellerium's contribution (is Zellerium not a DIY in your opinion?) and the numerous posts of Star-Drive giving your requested dimensions and properties?

Sorry, but I think that your statement:

Quote
There is no formal release of dielectric material, properties or dimensions

is unjustified and incorrect.  If you look at the pictures I just reposted, Star-Drive included the dielectric material, properties and dimensions.

Here is the information on dimensions and locations, (posted again, as it was posted in the previous page  ??? )


Star-Drive went even as far as providing the specific source where you can buy the dielectric he used (extruded High Density Polyethylene from McMaster Carr).  I don't understand how can you state that he did not provide enough information.

I would say the contrary: nobody has been more forthcoming with information than Star-Drive !



Here is an image from Zellerium's DIY including a dielectric insert:

« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 04:54 PM by Rodal »

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For those who want to have their cake and eat it too.

I'm going to provide a link to a company that will produce the basic frustum parts even a curved endplate.

https://www.fabricorproducts.com/online-store/conical-spun-shapes-tapers.html

Shell

https://www.fabricorproducts.com/images/stories/products/conical-category.jpg
https://www.fabricorproducts.com/images/stories/products/bobeche-category.jpg

Offline rq3

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It is technically incorrect to compare results for dielectric inserts having completely different properties, and to refer to them simply as "they all are just dielectrics so they are a waste of time"

They are a waste of time because:

1) Roger abandoned using them after he built the Experimental EmDrive.

2) EW's best force results, using dielectrics, are approx equivalent to 3 SnowFlakes (30uN each).

Other than Roger's Experimental EmDrive results of 16mN at 850W and EW's 3 SnowFlakes, no one that I know has reported any Force generation using dielectrics in an EmDrive.

However we have a range of much more than a few SnowFlakes of experimental force results reported by NOT using dielectrics.

It's interesting to note that a dielectric resonant oscillator (DRO) uses a dielectric "puck" to exchange energy, at resonance, with a tuned cavity. In this case, the puck increases the Q of the system, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Emdrive experimenters, however, seem to be focused on using the dielectric to "absorb" or detune the resonance, thereby decreasing the Q

Offline rq3

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Here's a question for people, apologies if it was asked/answered before.

What sort of effect does having a less rounded frustum have on things?

I've been toying around with a design for a re-configurable frustum. Sort of like a three dimensional iris shutter system. While I "should" be able to figure out how to make the blades rounded, unless I get super fancy with adjustable curves on the blades, they will still somewhat only be optimized for a particular shape.

Additionally, is having the RF input on the side of the frustum necessary compared with one of the endplates?

The goal of this particular mental exercise is to attempt to come up with a design of a frustum that can to some extent have most variables about its shape adjustable via computer control (possibly via stepper motors).

Thanks

-Mazon
Think I might have answered this on TT's site, but think slipping plates will cause a resonance problem and low Q.

Here's something to consider. Do what I did on my first design, construct the sidewalls with copper mesh screen, 11 threads per inch, use adjustable compression bands at 3 places along the sidewall. Mesh is quite pliable and it does give good resonance. Side-mount injection is not my choice and would be difficult with this or similar methodology.

During the writing of my previous post, I did have the idea of adjustable bars (in place of the blades) that could manipulate some sort of metallic cloth around and decided to do some looking before mentioning. At a glance, something like http://www.lessemf.com/fabric4.html#1212 was what I was thinking. Does something like the fabric or mesh make sense from an end-plate perspective?

Definitely having end-plate injection would simplify my setup. On an aside about that, there is probably no real value in having an ability to similarly offset the RF port is there? It wouldn't be that hard to do with an end-plate, for what I have in mind if people thought there would be value in it.

-Mazon

This is the only photographic evidence we have of how and where Rf was injected into the SPR Flight Thruster, which is the most modern non cryo design. That Rf coax injection by a coupler (sort of antenna) of some design.

It is the method I have used and plan to use again on my next thruster build.

Good luck with your build.

A nice Agilent synthesizer, and not a magnetron in sight! Guess even Roger finally realized what I've been saying all along. Tune the source to the cavity, not the cavity to the source. I wonder if he modulates the synthesizer to make it act like a magnetron?

Offline rq3

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MHT1003NR3 arrived. It is a little smaller than I expected. This little 3-pin RF LDMOSFET transistor can output 250 watts @ 2.45Ghz with 32v DC!

Just to get you started, NXP has a dxf file for the printed circuit board on their site. I'm sure it involves Rogers Duroid or some other special substrate, and I'm also sure you're looking at a massive heatsink and/or water cooling.
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 05:20 PM by rq3 »

Offline rfmwguy

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Since you continue to bunch up all dielectric inserts together without properly taking into account their different dielectric and other material properties, I will not continue answering any further posts from you on this matter until you properly take into account the technical material properties instead of bunching different material results saying "they are all dielectrics".

I have not asked you any questions about dielectrics as I have NO INTEREST in them. Dielectrics = very little, if any, force generation. End of story unless you have experimental data to show otherwise.

My question, which you jumped on and hijacked into talking about dielectrics, was to Paul and it was about how EW constructed their Aluminium frustum.

Please refrain from hijacking a question I directed to Paul.
I would agree that dielectrics are the least know commodity amongst active DIY participants. To my knowledge, only Eagleworks mentioned them a couple of years ago. Cannae might have, but their design is not a classic EMDrive.

There is no formal release of dielectric material, properties or dimensions that allowed me to use it in my design. In the use of dielectrics in the past, Q was lower and real estate was saved because of the dielectric constant being well above air. I am unaware of anything a dielectric could do to help create an emdrive effect...there is no accepted theory last time I checked.

If someone has advanced dielectric/theory facts, no reason to keep it withheld from DIY folks...I'll cut some Teflon of whatever...
(multi-snip)

Sorry, but I think that your statement:

Quote
There is no formal release of dielectric material, properties or dimensions

is unjustified and incorrect.  If you look at the pictures I just reposted, Star-Drive included the dielectric material, properties and dimensions.

Here is an image from Zellerium's DIY including a dielectric insert:

As the start of my build, I found no convenient list/summary of dielectric options nor any theories as to how a dielectric creates the emdrive effect. A dielectric is commonly used to scale down real estate. If you have a specific theory, please share, otherwise it seems as though you are "throwing stones" at those not using a dielectric.

Kurt and I communicate...his dielectric experiment yielded no results. He may or may not have dielectric in his next design. Mulletron as well. The majority of builders do not, nor has their been any convincing evidence that a dielectric is required.

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Just to get you started, NXP has a dxf file for the printed circuit board on their site. I'm sure it involves Rogers Duroid or some other special substrate, and I'm also sure you're looking at a massive heatsink and/or water cooling.

Thanks! I can't believe I missed the DXF.

I think I will need to dump about 80 watts of heat, so I will try the heatsink first.

Offline Oakey

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Hi guys. Has anyone considered heat annealing of frostrum? I hear a lot of conjecture around the action on the copper frostrum with examples of what could cause anomalous thrust if it exists. Some have mentioned SPR. Would this increase the resonance within the copper medium?

Online Rodal

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...
As the start of my build, I found no convenient list/summary of dielectric options nor any theories as to how a dielectric creates the emdrive effect. A dielectric is commonly used to scale down real estate. If you have a specific theory, please share, otherwise it seems as though you are "throwing stones" at those not using a dielectric.

...

Rfmwguy I don't understand your latest comments.

Yesterday you state that <<Eagleworks' project is dead...for all intents and purposes. Dead in the fact that there is an information blackout that has been in effect for many months.>>

When it is confirmed that NASA Eagleworks project is not dead you answer <<was hoping my post would elicit something concrete for our NSF audience. >>

I didn't throw stones at DIY not using dielectrics.  Rather, you prompted  the discussion about dielectrics by writing about "rumblings" <<I can tell you that there were rumblings that the 2014 tests yielded results WITHOUT a dielectric. I cannot say any more than that as am trying to respect the overall blackout. >> which  I showed to be an incorrect interpretation.

I am not throwing stones at DIY, I am challenging your assertion that << the 2014 tests yielded results WITHOUT a dielectric>> which is demonstrably wrong, when referring to "significant results" even at power inputs more than 10 times higher than with dielectric.  Something got mixed up in what you wrote...

Today you state that

<<There is no formal release of dielectric material, properties or dimensions>>

when I spend my time repeating the NASA data that shows your statement is completely incorrect, as Star-Drive has indeed provided dielectric material, properties and dimensions (even the source where you can buy them: McMaster-Carr), instead of admitting that you were either wrong, forgetful, or unaware, you charge that <<it seems as though you are "throwing stones" at those not using a dielectric>> ???

What do you mean by requiring that I share a specific theory?   I already pointed out the contributions from NSF user Notsosureofit, Prof. Woodward, and the multiple posts by Star-Drive.

What constitutes a specific theory according to you and what does not constitute a specific theory?

Perhaps you can show this by example.  What specific theory are you basing your efforts on that is more specific or more theoretical than the above-mentioned theories? 

TheTraveller is basing his DIY on Shawyer's theory.  Do you consider Shawyer's a specific theory or some other theory a "specific theory" and you don't consider the above mentioned contributions specific theories?

And why do you need a specific theory? You have the material specifications (extruded HDPE rod from McMaster Carr) and the dimensions, as well as a drawing where the dielectric is inserted.  What else do you require?   ???
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 07:48 PM by Rodal »

Offline rq3

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Just to get you started, NXP has a dxf file for the printed circuit board on their site. I'm sure it involves Rogers Duroid or some other special substrate, and I'm also sure you're looking at a massive heatsink and/or water cooling.

Thanks! I can't believe I missed the DXF.

I think I will need to dump about 80 watts of heat, so I will try the heatsink first.

Just as I suspected, the board is fabricated from Rogers Corp 6035HTC ceramic filled polytetrafluoroethylene, with an unusually thick (1 ounce) copper layer. Rogers tends to be quite liberal with samples, but board houses generally don't like dealing with small, one off, fabrication with weird materials.

You've got nothing to lose by contacting Freescale/NXP and asking for a board. You can be sure there are dozens of them sitting in some engineer's desk drawer.

The power added efficiency of your device is 58%, so you'll be shedding the other 42% as heat. Quite a bit more than 80 watts. You'll also need a hefty driver of about 7 watts, and an oscillator or synthesizer to drive your driver. Be safe. At this power level, you can expect cataracts pretty quickly just from radiation from the board. It needs to be in a well shielded enclosure.

Offline TheTraveller

A nice Agilent synthesizer, and not a magnetron in sight! Guess even Roger finally realized what I've been saying all along. Tune the source to the cavity, not the cavity to the source. I wonder if he modulates the synthesizer to make it act like a magnetron?

The Flight Thruster was designed (2008 to 2009) to be driven by dual space rated variable freq gens that calculates and tracks the best resonance freq and a dual TWTA for the 350W of Rf power.

The meter is attached to the sample port on the upper right, via the small Blue cable, and monitors what is going inside the frustum. It appears to be indicating a 3khz modulation of the 5.85GHz signal. The 350W of Rf is from the black unit to the left, via the thick Red cable, which I assume is the TWTA, circulator and Rf load.

My understanding is the prototype Flight Thruster was actually working and showing a weight reduction on the scale. Note the spring above the Flight Thruster and then read Roger's notes on Force Measurement.
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 07:13 PM by TheTraveller »
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Online Monomorphic

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Couldn't I fabricate a board with some duroid based on the DXF? 

Offline TheTraveller

Couldn't I fabricate a board with some duroid based on the DXF?

You really do want to operate that board INSIDE a metal box. There will be Rf everywhere and maybe enough to cook an eyeball or 2. Or other balls........

BTW nice build.
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 07:24 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
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Offline rq3

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Couldn't I fabricate a board with some duroid based on the DXF?

By all means. Just note that like most microwave boards, it's almost certainly double sided, with the rear surface acting as a ground plane. The holes (8 for mounting screws, many small ones for RF ground) are plated through. The ground plane sets the "reference" for the distributed capacitance for the strip-line feeds into and out of the transistor.

Duroid is a industry generic term for Rogers Corp products. Not all their products are Duroid. This one is not. It's a ceramic filled, high thermal conductivity material. The one you need is 30 mils (0.03 inches) thick, double sided, with 1 ounce copper.

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USB Spectrum analyzer that is just within a DIY budget (~$500). Could this be useful for analyzing the RF inside the frustum?

http://triarchytech.com/product_ESA4G.html
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 09:03 PM by Monomorphic »

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