Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 7  (Read 359274 times)

Offline Star-Drive

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 691
  • TX/USA
  • Liked: 405
  • Likes Given: 6

Here's something else to think about, Eagleworks' project is dead...for all intents and purposes. Dead in the fact that there is an information blackout that has been in effect for many months. Designing something to try and match a 2-3 year old design whose specifics have not been released is counterproductive IMHO.

I can tell you that there were rumblings that the 2014 tests yielded results WITHOUT a dielectric. I cannot say any more than that as am trying to respect the overall blackout. That being an old 2014 test, seems OK to provide the info. So...long story short...no one has a magic design yet so feel free to experiment with the guidance you have here...you will get some who want you to do this or that...but the key word here is YOU.

Dave:

The Eagleworks Lab is NOT dead and we continue down the path set by our NASA management.  Past that I can't say more other than to listen to Dr. Rodal on this topic, and please have patience about when our next EW paper is going to be published.  Peer reviews are glacially slow...

Best, Paul March

Offline spupeng7

If a Methanol laser can lase at a wavelength of 0.5mm, are there any lasers with an even longer wavelength?

Optimism equals opportunity.

Offline Willem Staal

  • Member
  • Posts: 9
  • Netherlands
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 1
Here's a question for people, apologies if it was asked/answered before.

What sort of effect does having a less rounded frustum have on things?

I've been toying around with a design for a re-configurable frustum. Sort of like a three dimensional iris shutter system. While I "should" be able to figure out how to make the blades rounded, unless I get super fancy with adjustable curves on the blades, they will still somewhat only be optimized for a particular shape.

Additionally, is having the RF input on the side of the frustum necessary compared with one of the endplates?

The goal of this particular mental exercise is to attempt to come up with a design of a frustum that can to some extent have most variables about its shape adjustable via computer control (possibly via stepper motors).

Thanks

-Mazon
"Sort of like a three dimensional iris shutter system".. Like the way the nozzle of a jet engine works? I dunno, could be possible, but the thing is; the frustrum is closed! Unless its possible to make a flexible system to cap off the whide end..
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 06:40 AM by Willem Staal »

Offline Willem Staal

  • Member
  • Posts: 9
  • Netherlands
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 1
If a Methanol laser can lase at a wavelength of 0.5mm, are there any lasers with an even longer wavelength?
I think not under the name laser anymore, but in fact it will called a  a Maser ('Microwave Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation')

Offline TheTraveller

emdrive will be on the bbc horizon episode per this article
http://www.radiotimes.com/episode/d2zck4/horizon--project-greenglow-the-quest-for-gravity-control

Roger shared Horizon spent a very long day filming EmDrive thrusters that were at least 5 years old as that was the earliest he could show them. Said they filmed an early cryo EmDrive moving on an air track. Hope it gets into the episode as it seems both the USAF and UK MOD had rights to edit.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline TheTraveller

This is the only photographic evidence we have of how and where Rf was injected into the SPR Flight Thruster, which is the most modern non cryo design. That Rf coax injection by a coupler (sort of antenna) of some design.

Can anyone tell me what this square thing is protruding near the RF coax inject? Is it some kind of mechanism for changing the shape of the antenna?
My best guess is that it is a matching stub. Note the screw adjustment on the left of the box. No idea on the interior antenna design.

It also could be a loop antenna for exciting a TE012 mode and the attachment on the side allows you to rotate the loop for max Q and minimum mode distortion in the cavity.

Believe it is an adjuster that can rotate & slide in & out of the cavity when needed to adjust the internal couplers position to get best VSWR. Note the arm on the left end of the rod to allow rotation.

Roger did share that every successful EmDrive build he knows of had some ability to externally adjust the internal coupler to best results.
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 07:56 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline Flyby

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 246
  • Belgium
  • Liked: 263
  • Likes Given: 14
Therefore I think you should wait until Monomorphic runs a comparison of the effect of random distortions of each end, and of the sidewalls on the Q, before making a decision on how to proceed.

I'm working on doing just that. I hope to have something by this weekend. The higher number of triangles in these meshes (500+) greatly increases the compute time and I've been pretty busy this week.

I'm also going to work with aero on comparing FEKO and MEEP runs. Hope to have results on that in the next day or so.

Monomorphic,
so far I've only seen frequency shifts done with FEKO.
 Is there a possibility to also do time related animations?

It would be nice to either confirm or discredit the idea of internal moving resonance patterns, something that popped up when aero did his MEEP calculations (when he added antenna feed).

It is my personal opinion these internal created "moving patterns" are somehow related to the possible force creation.
So...It would be nice to have some additional  info on that...either to continue working on it, or just to put in the bin.. either way is fine.. ;)

Offline TheTraveller


Here's something else to think about, Eagleworks' project is dead...for all intents and purposes. Dead in the fact that there is an information blackout that has been in effect for many months. Designing something to try and match a 2-3 year old design whose specifics have not been released is counterproductive IMHO.

I can tell you that there were rumblings that the 2014 tests yielded results WITHOUT a dielectric. I cannot say any more than that as am trying to respect the overall blackout. That being an old 2014 test, seems OK to provide the info. So...long story short...no one has a magic design yet so feel free to experiment with the guidance you have here...you will get some who want you to do this or that...but the key word here is YOU.

Dave:

The Eagleworks Lab is NOT dead and we continue down the path set by our NASA management.  Past that I can't say more other than to listen to Dr. Rodal on this topic, and please have patience about when our next EW paper is going to be published.  Peer reviews are glacially slow...

Best, Paul March

Hi Paul,

Good to learn you guys are still alive and giving it your best.

As Shell, Dave & myself are building much higher quality 2nd gen frustums and there has been some discussion of side wall thickness, could you share a bit of info on the Alum frustum as attached?

What are the side wall and end plate thickness?

Was the frustum cast with the flanges, machined and polished or was it rolled, sidewall edge seam welded, flanges welded on, machined and then polished?

Are the interior dimensions shareable?

Any other breadcrumbs to share?

Phil
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline rfmwguy

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1967
  • NE Ohio
  • Liked: 2319
  • Likes Given: 1034

Here's something else to think about, Eagleworks' project is dead...for all intents and purposes. Dead in the fact that there is an information blackout that has been in effect for many months. Designing something to try and match a 2-3 year old design whose specifics have not been released is counterproductive IMHO.

I can tell you that there were rumblings that the 2014 tests yielded results WITHOUT a dielectric. I cannot say any more than that as am trying to respect the overall blackout. That being an old 2014 test, seems OK to provide the info. So...long story short...no one has a magic design yet so feel free to experiment with the guidance you have here...you will get some who want you to do this or that...but the key word here is YOU.

Dave:

The Eagleworks Lab is NOT dead and we continue down the path set by our NASA management.  Past that I can't say more other than to listen to Dr. Rodal on this topic, and please have patience about when our next EW paper is going to be published.  Peer reviews are glacially slow...

Best, Paul March
Thank you Paul. I've not pressed you privately out of personal respect and was hoping my post would elicit something concrete for our NSF audience.  Thanks for taking the time to update us...that was my "ruthless" objective.  ;)

Onwards and outwards - Dave
Scientists just discovered the only objects that move FTL...Chuck Norris' Fists

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4922
  • USA
  • Liked: 3924
  • Likes Given: 3595

Here's something else to think about, Eagleworks' project is dead...for all intents and purposes. Dead in the fact that there is an information blackout that has been in effect for many months. Designing something to try and match a 2-3 year old design whose specifics have not been released is counterproductive IMHO.

I can tell you that there were rumblings that the 2014 tests yielded results WITHOUT a dielectric. I cannot say any more than that as am trying to respect the overall blackout. That being an old 2014 test, seems OK to provide the info. So...long story short...no one has a magic design yet so feel free to experiment with the guidance you have here...you will get some who want you to do this or that...but the key word here is YOU.

Dave:

The Eagleworks Lab is NOT dead and we continue down the path set by our NASA management.  Past that I can't say more other than to listen to Dr. Rodal on this topic, and please have patience about when our next EW paper is going to be published.  Peer reviews are glacially slow...

Best, Paul March

Hi Paul,

Good to learn you guys are still alive and giving it your best.

As Shell, Dave & myself are building much higher quality 2nd gen frustums and there has been some discussion of side wall thickness, could you share a bit of info on the Alum frustum as attached?

What are the side wall and end plate thickness?

Was the frustum cast with the flanges, machined and polished or was it rolled, sidewall edge seam welded, flanges welded on, machined and then polished?

Are the interior dimensions shareable?

Any other breadcrumbs to share?

Phil

NSF readers are encouraged to look at previous EM Drive threads (and to use Google's advanced search function) to find previous answers to several of the questions asked in the above post, for example, for the truncated cone (*) reported results :

dimensions, including thickness of NASA's EM Drive:



construction of NASA's EM Drive:



__________

(*) ADDED a posteriori: NASA's frustum that resulted in the highest measured anomalous force
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 01:02 PM by Rodal »

Offline TheTraveller

NSF readers are encouraged to look at previous EM Drive threads (and to use Google's advanced search function) to find previous answers to some of the questions asked in the above post, for example :

dimensions, including thickness of NASA's EM Drive:

The questions I asked were about the Aluminium Frustum EW built and have NOT been answered. What you provided was info on the copper frustum that Paul built. Please reread my questions to Paul.

BTW I have a complete Google Drive archive of all of Paul, Dave, Shell, your and my posts and attachments, so it is easy to search.
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 11:43 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4922
  • USA
  • Liked: 3924
  • Likes Given: 3595
NSF readers are encouraged to look at previous EM Drive threads (and to use Google's advanced search function) to find previous answers to some of the questions asked in the above post, for example :

dimensions, including thickness of NASA's EM Drive:

The questions I asked were about the Aluminium Frustum EW built and have NOT been answered. What you provided was info on the copper frustum that Paul built. Please reread my questions to Paul.

BTW I have a complete Google Drive archive of all of Paul, Dave, Shell, mine and your posts and attachments so it is easy to search.

Yes, I provided the answers for the truncated cone used for the results published by NASA, which I believe is the relevant construction to many readers at NSF, because of the anomalous force results they obtained with the copper frustum.

I believe that the most important thing is what constructions resulted in the highest anomalous force.

Regarding NASA's thicker, plated, aluminum frustum,

 please see the message that Star-Drive posted regarding the anomalous force results they obtained with that Aluminum frustum (including the fact that this thicker aluminum frustum used a dielectric with a much higher permittivity

εr = 43  (similar to the high permittivity dielectric used by Shawyer in his patents using a dielectric which resulted, as admitted by Shawyer, in lower Q, and hence Shawyer abandoned the use of such high permittivity dielectrics)

than the HDPE dielectric NASA used for their reported results:

εr = 2.26 (much lower electric permittivity for NASA's reported results.  Shawyer has never reported any results for dielectric with low electric permittivity and properties as polymers like HDPE and PTFE)

It is also interesting to compare the values of ε" and other material properties.

).

I believe it is very important to compare the anomalous force resuts of these different frustums to make a valid comparison.
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 12:07 PM by Rodal »

Offline TheTraveller

emdrive will be on the bbc horizon episode per this article
http://www.radiotimes.com/episode/d2zck4/horizon--project-greenglow-the-quest-for-gravity-control
   Who is he?The device looks very cool!!!I completed the microwave amplifier using NXP chip, I was measuring platform

Hi Oyzw,

Looks interesting:
http://www.nxp.com/products/rf/rf-power-transistors/rf-cooking/2450-mhz-250-w-cw-32-v-rf-ldmos-transistor-for-consumer-and-commercial-cooking:MHT1003N?

Might just consider building my own 250W 2.45GHz Rf amp using that chip.

What price will you sell your Rf amp build?

Phil
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline Monomorphic

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • United States
  • Liked: 678
  • Likes Given: 372
so far I've only seen frequency shifts done with FEKO.
 Is there a possibility to also do time related animations?

FEKO supports time domain analysis and I've performed a few of them. Here is one:


Offline TheTraveller

I believe it is very important to compare the anomalous force resuts of these different frustums to make a valid comparison.

As I have measured ~8mN with my 1st non dielectric build, dielectrics are of no interest to me. I believe they are a waste of time. I know of NO build that has shown above multiple SnowFlake level of force generation using dielectrics other than Roger's Experimental EmDrive, after which he abandoned using dielectrics.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4922
  • USA
  • Liked: 3924
  • Likes Given: 3595
I believe it is very important to compare the anomalous force resuts of these different frustums to make a valid comparison.

As I have measured ~8mN with my 1st non dielectric build, dielectrics are of no interest to me. I believe they are a waste of time. I know of NO build that has shown above multiple SnowFlake level of force generation using dielectrics other than Roger's Experimental EmDrive, after which he abandoned using dielectrics.

But NASA's Aluminum frustum with a high electric permittivity dielectric (similar dielectric as used by Shawyer in his patents) resulted in much lower anomalous force than NASA's copper frustum with HDPE or PTFE dielectric.

So, if you are not interested in low anomalous force  (you name-call them "SnowFlake level of force") frustum's why are you interested in the dimensions of  the aluminum frustum that NASA found to have a much lower anomalous force???

That's why I gave the dimensions for the NASA frustum that gave the higher anomalous force...
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 12:28 PM by Rodal »

Offline Monomorphic

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • United States
  • Liked: 678
  • Likes Given: 372
I completed the microwave amplifier using NXP chip, I was measuring platform

Please show us the amplifier. I have a NXP transistor i'm working on building an amp around. Would love some advice as i'm just getting started.

Offline TheTraveller

I completed the microwave amplifier using NXP chip, I was measuring platform

Please show us the amplifier. I have a NXP transistor i'm working on building an amp around. Would love some advice as i'm just getting started.

Chip only has ~15.5dB gain. Needs ~38.5dBm (~7W) of drive to get ~54dBm (~250W) of output.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline TheTraveller

...why are you interested in the dimensions of  the aluminum frustum that NASA found to have a much lower anomalous force???

As I asked in the post to Paul, I'm interested to how they constructed it and what were the sidewall and end plate thickness.

As for the force generation, if I had it I would throw out the dielectric, put in a good 1/2 (180 deg) loop coupler, find the TE013 resonance and get it to generate decent force. I do have a concern it is not highly polished and so may not generate a much force as if it were highly polished.

Maybe Paul can share the force EW measured when they ran the Alum frustum on the Teeter Totter balance beam and excited it with a 1.2kW maggie and without a dielectric. Paul has shared with us this test rig was built but as of yet no measurement data other than some force was measured.

With respect, I really think you are flogging a dead horse, running down a dead end alley, chasing the dielectric.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4922
  • USA
  • Liked: 3924
  • Likes Given: 3595
...With respect, I really think you are flogging a dead horse, running down a dead end alley, chasing the dielectric.
With respect, I think that either you have not had access to the information on the results with dielectrics, or you are not properly taking into account their role because you bunch up all dielectrics as having the same properties, which is incorrect, because there is a huge difference between the ceramic dielectrics used by Shawyer in his patents (having electric permittivity 38 or higher) and the dielectric polymers used by NASA to obtain higher anomalous forces (having much lower electric permittivities of 2, and very different complex permittivity and piezoelectric properties) (*).

To bunch up all dielectric materials together and jumping to the conclusion that dielectrics

Quote from: TheTraveller
I believe they are a waste of time...
[snip]
 a dead horse, running down a dead end alley, chasing the dielectric.
 

is incorrect.  Dielectric materials have a huge range of properties.  To bunch all dielectric materials together and reject them out of hand based on a few results by Shawyer based on a restricted set of dielectrics Shawyer tested (*) would be like:

somebody in the late 1940's saying that semiconductors cannot possibly compete with vacuum tubes because they tested a few semiconductors and had bad results,

or somebody saying, more than a century ago, that it doesn't make sense for Edison to test filaments for electric lighting, because they tested a few filaments and they could not get an electric light bulb to work  ;)

It is technically incorrect to compare results for dielectric inserts having completely different properties, and to refer to them simply as "they all are just dielectrics so they are a waste of time"
________________

(*) The aluminum frustum tested by NASA (that you are interested in) is most interesting because it used a similar dielectric as used by Shawyer in his patents, and NASA measured a much smaller anomalous force with it than with the copper frustum  using HDPE or PTFE polymer dielectrics
« Last Edit: 03/17/2016 01:49 PM by Rodal »

Tags: