Author Topic: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket  (Read 43872 times)

Offline AntiAnti

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #60 on: 12/25/2017 11:00 AM »
I woudln't take it too serious, but RSC Energia is going to make a preliminary research of reusable first stage option for a Soyuz-5-based rocket. With vertical rocket landing.

(rus): https://iz.ru/680261/dmitrii-strugovetc-anastasiia-sinitckaia/ilonu-masku-otvetiat-soiuzom

Online AncientU

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #61 on: 12/26/2017 12:03 AM »
A couple Google translate bits:
Quote
In Russia, developing a reusable medium-range missile. It will be a response to the carrier of Falcon 9, created by Ilon Mask. Unification with a one-time(expendable) "Soyuz-5" will allow launching a future domestic missile from Baikonur, Vostochny, and also from a floating cosmodrome in the Pacific Ocean, under the Sea Launch program. The development of the novelty will be occupied by RSC Energia and the Progress space rocket and space center. According to experts, the creation of a reusable carrier is important for maintaining Russia's position in the launch services market.

Quote
The development of Soyuz-5 with a reusable first stage will be carried out by specialists from RSC Energia and the Progress space rocket and space center.

It is assumed that the rocket will make an independent landing - like the Falcon 9 of the American corporation SpaceX.

Quote
The scientific leader of the Institute for Space Policy Ivan Moiseyev considers the creation of reusable carriers promising and economically profitable.

"One of the most expensive rocket knots(parts?) is the engines," Ivan Moiseyev told Izvestia. - If we plant a step or otherwise save engines, then this gives 10-20% savings on each start-up. For the carrier this is a serious saving. In addition, the emergence of a Russian multiple-stage rocket will protect our share in the world market of space launches, which has been shaken after the accidents of recent years.
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #62 on: 12/27/2017 07:28 AM »
I was just thinking about this last night! A reusable first stage could use seven or nine RD-193 engines, giving 13.44 MN or 17.28 MN thrust, respectively. Stage diameter would have to be about 6.8 m or 8.3 m, respectively though. Use friction stir welded aluminium-lithium alloy with friction welded stringers. Pressurisation could be gaseous oxygen for LOX and gaseous nitrogen from heated liquid nitrogen for RG-1. Transport of the stage would be a problem. The An-225 that were used for Energia and Buran are now with Ukraine. The VM-T Atlant that was used previously might be able to be used. At 1.2g, lift-off mass would be 1,142 t or 1,468 t, respectively. That should give plenty of performance.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online AncientU

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #63 on: 12/30/2017 01:44 PM »
I was just thinking about this last night! A reusable first stage could use seven or nine RD-193 engines, giving 13.44 MN or 17.28 MN thrust, respectively. Stage diameter would have to be about 6.8 m or 8.3 m, respectively though. Use friction stir welded aluminium-lithium alloy with friction welded stringers. Pressurisation could be gaseous oxygen for LOX and gaseous nitrogen from heated liquid nitrogen for RG-1. Transport of the stage would be a problem. The An-225 that were used for Energia and Buran are now with Ukraine. The VM-T Atlant that was used previously might be able to be used. At 1.2g, lift-off mass would be 1,142 t or 1,468 t, respectively. That should give plenty of performance.

Go for it!!!!
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
-- SpaceX friend of mlindner

Online russianhalo117

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #64 on: 12/30/2017 04:22 PM »
I was just thinking about this last night! A reusable first stage could use seven or nine RD-193 engines, giving 13.44 MN or 17.28 MN thrust, respectively. Stage diameter would have to be about 6.8 m or 8.3 m, respectively though. Use friction stir welded aluminium-lithium alloy with friction welded stringers. Pressurisation could be gaseous oxygen for LOX and gaseous nitrogen from heated liquid nitrogen for RG-1. Transport of the stage would be a problem. The An-225 that were used for Energia and Buran are now with Ukraine. The VM-T Atlant that was used previously might be able to be used. At 1.2g, lift-off mass would be 1,142 t or 1,468 t, respectively. That should give plenty of performance.
Better off to just manufacture the launcher at the launch site given the dimensions you are proposing.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #65 on: 12/31/2017 01:30 AM »
Better off to just manufacture the launcher at the launch site given the dimensions you are proposing.

I suppose that could work for Vostochny, which can do both polar and launches to 51 degrees.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online AncientU

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #66 on: 12/31/2017 12:30 PM »
Better off to just manufacture the launcher at the launch site given the dimensions you are proposing.

I suppose that could work for Vostochny, which can do both polar and launches to 51 degrees.

Would be better to build something transportable first and work out all the bugs in the reuse cycle.  Then going larger would be fine because of the decreased number of new cores needed.  Building the fab facility at the launch site (Blue Origin approach) would be more direct, but potentially more expensive route.

Don't know where they are going to get the cash for any of this, though.
"If we shared everything [we are working on] people would think we are insane!"
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Offline spacenut

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #67 on: 12/31/2017 01:23 PM »
Russia, for large rockets, has a huge transportation problem.  The have very little year round seaports, no interstate highway system, very little barge, river, canal transportation.  Most of the population is in the east.  Most of the best launch areas are in the center or west, where weather is a huge factor, transportation is a huge factor, and a large manufacturing population is a huge factor. 

So, they have to rely on clustered rocket boosters that are rail transportable. 

If they could develop a rocket with the capability of say a Falcon 9, or Atlas V phase II, they could cluster these for a sizeable launcher.  Couple that with a good hydrolox second stage and you have a launcher capable of getting to the moon. 

Russia might be better off with in space assembly of a small Nautilus-X type vehicle that could travel to the moon with a lander and travel back.  If they can build a space station, they could build something to get to the moon. 

Offline centaurinasa

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #68 on: 01/26/2018 12:15 PM »
They told about the plans of the rocket and space industry at Bauman Moscow State Technical University who hosted the opening of the "42th Academic Lectures on Cosmonautics"...

https://www.energia.ru/en/news/news-2018/news_01-23_1.html
« Last Edit: 01/29/2018 10:26 AM by centaurinasa »

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #69 on: 02/24/2018 12:11 PM »
Technical Requirements (in Russian) for a certain phase of R&D projects
- "Development of the key elements and technologies of super-heavy class integrated launch vehicle  (R&D code "SHLV Elements") and
- "Preliminary Design Development of medium-class integrated launch vehicle for flight development testing of the key elements of super-heavy class integrated launch vehicle" (R&D code "EP MLV")

Quote
ТЕХНИЧЕСКОЕ ЗАДАНИЕ
НА СОСТАВНУЮ ЧАСТЬ ОПЫТНО-КОНСТРУКТОРСКОЙ РАБОТЫ
«Разработка ключевых элементов и технологий создания космического ракетного комплекса сверхтяжелого класса»
(шифр ОКР: «Элементы СТК»)
«Разработка эскизного проекта на комплекс ракеты-носителя среднего класса для летно-конструкторской отработки ключевых элементов космического ракетного
комплекса сверхтяжелого класса»
(шифр СЧ ОКР: «Элементы СТК» (ЭП КРН СК)
Федеральная космическая программа России на 2016-2025 годы
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #70 on: 02/25/2018 03:41 AM »
Some of the juicy bits.

"Development of the structural-power scheme;
Integration and adaptation of Engines Rd-171 m with the construction of the Block;

Useful cargoes weighing up to 17 t on the circular orbit of the NKr = 200 km, inclination i = 51.7 deg;

PTC with a mass not less than 15.5 t on open orbit intermediate orbit with parameters: Height perigee nya =-200 km; Height of the Apogee = 200 km, inclination i = 51.7 °;

Engines Rd 171 M in the block of the first stage in diameter 4.1 m with a working reserve of fuel 398 t (under the conditions of unification with the rocket blocks of the first stage PH Stk);
Two Engines Rd 0124 as part of the second stage block;
Third stage ph "hangar-A5" with minimal improvements as the second stage of ph IC."
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Dmitry_V_home

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #71 on: 02/25/2018 03:49 PM »
Some of the juicy bits.

Third stage ph "hangar-A5" with minimal improvements as the second stage of ph IC."

This option was offered by A.A. Medvedev.

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #72 on: 02/25/2018 11:38 PM »
LPRE Engines
- first stage RD-171MV (NPO Energomash, Glushko Khimki)
- second stage 2xRD-0124M (KBKhA Kosberg, Voronezh) 

Dmitri, the aft section of Stage I make more sense - no multiple conical adaptors, easier and cheaper to  manufacture.
 
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #73 on: 03/01/2018 05:21 PM »
According to a recent Izvestia article, Roscosmos has issued a contract (52 Billion rubles) for Soyuz-5, available on "website of state acquisitions"...

But I find nothing on zakupki.gov...
Nicolas PILLET
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Offline Stan Black

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Re: Feniks / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #74 on: 03/01/2018 06:32 PM »
According to a recent Izvestia article, Roscosmos has issued a contract (52 Billion rubles) for Soyuz-5, available on "website of state acquisitions"...

But I find nothing on zakupki.gov...

I don’t think it has even reached the tender stage?
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/purchaseplanfz44/printForm/view.html?printFormId=11842538

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Feniks / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #75 on: 03/01/2018 07:24 PM »
According to a recent Izvestia article, Roscosmos has issued a contract (52 Billion rubles) for Soyuz-5, available on "website of state acquisitions"...

But I find nothing on zakupki.gov...

I don’t think it has even reached the tender stage?
http://www.zakupki.gov.ru/epz/purchaseplanfz44/printForm/view.html?printFormId=11842538

My understanding is they skipped the tender stage in order to save time. RKK Energiya was named prime contractor by an order of the Russian government last summer. See this Energiya press release :

https://www.energia.ru/en/news/news-2017/news_08-11.html

Offline Nicolas PILLET

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #76 on: 03/20/2018 08:50 PM »
Dmitri Rogozin made a trip to Samara on 14th March 2018.

http://oborona.gov.ru/media/photo/388

I wonder if these pictures show Soyuz-5 related materials...
Nicolas PILLET
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Online russianhalo117

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #77 on: 03/20/2018 08:56 PM »
Dmitri Rogozin made a trip to Samara on 14th March 2018.

http://oborona.gov.ru/media/photo/388

I wonder if these pictures show Soyuz-5 related materials...
Possibly. Anatoly Zak had pictures on his site of these some material test articles.
http://russianspaceweb.com/images/rockets/soyuz5/waffle_2.jpg
http://russianspaceweb.com/soyuz5-lv-2017.html#12
« Last Edit: 03/20/2018 09:47 PM by russianhalo117 »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #78 on: 04/11/2018 04:31 PM »
https://www.roscosmos.ru/24908/

Google translate:

Quote
ROSKOSMOS. THE COMMISSION RECEIVED THE SKETCH PROJECT OF THE SOYUZ-5 LV
11/04/2018 11:44

The commission of the State Corporation "ROSKOSMOS" has adopted a draft design for a new medium carrier rocket "Soyuz-5", which will also be used to test key elements of the space rocket complex of the super-heavy class developed by RSC Energia.

The document was developed in cooperation with the RCC Progress, NPO Energomash, SIC RKP, KBHA, SPC AP, NPO Automation, branch of FSUE TsENKI - NIISK, TsNIIMash, IPU RAS, TsNIISM, NPO Technomash, IRZ, NPO IT, OKB "Spectrum", "IRZ-Svyaz" and FGBOU VO "Moscow Technological University".

The developers carried out a large amount of design studies to determine the shape and characteristics of the medium-range missile complex, which confirmed the possibility of launching manned transport vehicles weighing up to 15.5 tons into orbit, as well as the launch of automatic spacecraft (using an accelerating unit) into near-earth orbits and off trajectories to the bodies of the solar system.

In addition, the document reflects the scope of the necessary works to modernize the ground-based infrastructure facilities of the Zenit-M space rocket complex at the Baikonur cosmodrome for use as part of the Soyuz-5 complex.

"Soyuz-5" is a two-stage medium-class carrier rocket with a sequential arrangement of stages. Her production is planned for the RCC "Progress" (Samara).

The technical specifications of the Soyuz-5 launch vehicle are as follows: the starting mass is about 530 tons, the length is 61.87 meters (with the transport manned spacecraft Federation 65.9 m), the diameter is 4.1 m, the first stage engine is RD171MV, the engine of the second stage is RD0124MS. Fuel components: oxidizer - liquid oxygen, fuel - naphthyl. The mass of the payload to the low Earth orbit from the Baikonur cosmodrome is about 18 tons.

Offline bobislav

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Re: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« Reply #79 on: 04/12/2018 02:23 AM »
It does look like one of their more serious attempts after many years; the nicer looking graphics are certainly a step up. Not too much more about it in the news, though I do see this short article here today.

https://news.rambler.ru/other/39586710-rkk-energiya-razrabotaet-deshevuyu-mnogorazovuyu-modifikatsiyu-rakety-soyuz-5/

Google Translate:

Quote
"For the first time in Russia, in the framework of public-private partnership, we are trying together with S7 to create a carrier rocket on the basis of Soyuz-5 in a commercial version, primarily for launches from the Sea Launch platform. From a constructive point of view, this product and launch vehicle for manned programs of the Russian Federation will be maximally unified. But despite the fact that both versions are created in parallel, the commercial missile in terms of reducing its cost will outstrip the basic version of "Soyuz-5" and, accordingly, "pull" it to this trend to reduce production costs, "Solntsev said.
Quote
Today we face the task once again, to study in more detail the possibility of its return. However, for the time being this work is rather optional: we should check how much it is generally expedient to do, because the inevitable payment for the solution of certain functional tasks is the reduction of the weight of the output payload. We need to consider several technical options for solving this problem.

So still the same hints of a commerical variant and talk of the possibility of re-use, though it seems nothing may come of it. This other article explores the rocket a bit more.

https://www.pnp.ru/economics/roskosmos-prinyal-eskiznyy-proekt-novoy-rakety-nositelya-soyuz-5.html

Google Translate:

Quote
On the "Soyuz-5" will be installed the engine of the first stage RD-171MV, the engine of the second stage - RD-0124MS. At the same time, Roskosmos specified that the development of the RD-171MW engine for the work continues. The stage of release of the design documentation of the device will be completed in 2019.

It is planned that the launch vehicle will be created by 2021. Flight testing of a new Russian launch vehicle is planned for 2022.

Timelines feel a bit more optimistic than I expected, would be nice if they can meet those deadlines :D
« Last Edit: 04/12/2018 02:24 AM by bobislav »

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