Author Topic: Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket  (Read 17760 times)

Offline Dante80

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Fenix / Soyuz 5 Rocket
« on: 01/03/2016 01:43 AM »
Quote
MOSCOW, December 30. /TASS/.

Russia has begun the work on the creation of a super-heavy space rocket, its first step will be the Fenix rocket, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said in an interview with the Rossiya-24 TV channel. "In fact, the work on the new space program has been started, I tell you this as some serious news on the super-heavy rocket," the deputy prime minister said.

The official said that if the Angara rocket is like a jeep capable of taking to orbit 7 tons of payload in the light variant and up to 37 tons — in the heavy variant, then for major expeditions it is necessary to have a "dump truck." "The super-heavy rocket will be such "dump truck", but we are getting down to its creation like the Soviet Union had embarked on such project — first it created the Zenit rocket that was the first stage of the super-heavy rocket Energia, and only after that additional modules were created for such unique rocket," he said. "We are now creating it on a totally new technology basis, and the creation of the Fenix rocket, which will become the first stage of the super-heavy rocket, is envisaged in the new federal space program.

Rogozin added that the payload capacity of this rocket will exceed 100 tons, and maybe even 150 tons. Read also Russia looking for ways to minimize spending on spacecraft launches — deputy PM Russia carries out 29 launches of carrier rockets this year — space corporation On Tuesday, a source in the space rocket industry said that plans for creating a new generation space rocket Fenix remained on the agenda of the Russian space agency Roscosmos and had been included in the draft of the federal space programme for 2016-2025 despite certain cuts in budget financing. "Research and development under the Fenix project has been preserved in the draft of the federal space programme, which is undergoing inter-departmental coordination. True, the possibility of removing Fenix from the programme was discussed at a certain point, but for now this promising project has remained relevant," the source said.

 Fenix is part and parcel of a product research and development portfolio, its eventual aim being creation of a new space rocket for manned programmes. The Zenit-size rocket may be built according to a modular principle and consist of several modules. A super-heavy configuration is a possibility. The RD-171 engine from NPO Energomash, already used in the Zenit rocket, is regarded as a potential first stage. The previous federal space program draft extending till 2025 envisages feasibility studies for developing a medium class space rocket during 2016-2017. Research and development was due to begin as of 2018.

Under the project Roscosmos in 2018 through 2025 was to spend more than 30 billion roubles ($430 million) for the purpose. According to earlier reports, the budget financing of the federal space programme would be slashed from 2.004 trillion to 1.4 trillion.


http://tass.ru/en/science/847810
« Last Edit: 08/15/2017 03:26 AM by gongora »

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #1 on: 01/03/2016 02:06 AM »
This doesn't make much sense. How can Russia develop the super heavy Fenix launcher when its space budget has been cut by 30%?
« Last Edit: 01/03/2016 02:07 AM by Steven Pietrobon »
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Offline Serpentuspl

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #2 on: 01/03/2016 11:05 AM »
Hello from Poland - it is easy: after creating large corporation from Roscosmos and joining a number of companies into one company called United Rocket and Space Corporation (URSC), employment will be reduced from 250 000 to 196 000 in 2020.  Also Russia is going to reduce their moon exploration program: Deputy Director of the Space Research Institute at the Russian Academy of Sciences Oleg Korablyov stated on 29 December 2015 that all manned missions to moon are suspended. It is worth to mention that many Russian statements is nothing more than soviet style propaganda.

Offline owais.usmani

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #3 on: 01/03/2016 01:08 PM »
This doesn't make much sense. How can Russia develop the super heavy Fenix launcher when its space budget has been cut by 30%?

Budget cuts would mean that it is delayed by 1 or maybe 2 decades. They will eventually develop it in this century.

Offline The Amazing Catstronaut

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #4 on: 01/03/2016 01:21 PM »

Budget cuts would mean that it is delayed by 1 or maybe 2 decades. They will eventually develop it in this century.

Government development times that long don't end up happening.  The whole concept will be outdated by the time they manufacture the design. Fenix won't happen.
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Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #5 on: 01/03/2016 01:43 PM »
Actually, the project Fenix starts by the creation of the Soyuz-5 vehicle, which should slash launch cost for Russia. Then, they have the option of developing a SHLV by using the Soyuz-5.3 boosters and developing a big core and upper stage.

Offline dror

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #6 on: 01/03/2016 02:13 PM »
Actually, the project Fenix starts by the creation of the Soyuz-5 vehicle, which should slash launch cost for Russia. Then, they have the option of developing a SHLV by using the Soyuz-5.3 boosters and developing a big core and upper stage.
More info here:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz5.html
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Offline Danderman

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #7 on: 01/03/2016 04:00 PM »
Since there is no money, politicians can tell any stories they want. Usually such stories are reserved for April 12.

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #8 on: 01/04/2016 10:11 PM »
IMHO Fenix aka Phoenix (please note spelling) is not a name of launch vehicle of super heavy class.
It was a R&D code name for a creation of medium-class LV with MethaLOX propulsion on both stages (it was a Samara Rocket Center Progress initiative to eventually replace Soyuz-2 branch of the Soyuz LV family by Souyz 5).
AFAIK after recent events Russia would also might decide to replace Ukrainian-built Zenit LV by 100% national version.
First stage of Zenit LV has common design with Energia SHLV boosters (Block A), it make sense to reuse first stage of MethaLOX LV as boosters for a brand new SHLV (it might happened after 2025).
Roskosmos state corporation would spend 2 years to determine requirements for Phoenix tender (expected in 2018).     


More details about Zenit first stage are here
« Last Edit: 01/04/2016 10:14 PM by fregate »
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Offline notsorandom

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #9 on: 01/05/2016 03:58 PM »
The Zenit and Angara-3 have roughly the same payload capabilities. Considering that the Angara 1 and 5 versions have already flown wouldn't it be cheaper and quicker to field the Angara-3 than resurrect an all Russian Zenit or develop the Soyuz 5 if that payload class were needed?

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #10 on: 01/05/2016 04:08 PM »
I am curious about Soyuz-3 and Soyuz-4 if we are talking about Soyuz-5.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #11 on: 01/05/2016 09:30 PM »
Different internal Projects. Soyuz-3 was to have an hydrogen third stage, NK-33 second stage and RD-163 first stage, IIRC. Zak's site has the whole thing.
Regarding Soyuz-4, I don't really know the details.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #12 on: 01/05/2016 09:34 PM »
Important note is that Soyuz-5 is RSC Progress project to replace Soyuz. Angara is Khrunichev's project for consolidating all their LV under a single family.
I'm pretty sure that keeping two launch vehicle companies is one of the main concerns of the Russian government. Even if they are all owned by the government corporation in the end.
Please understand that somehow Progress has been able to launch 20 rockets per year and has some very interesting contracts with WebOne and Arianespace. So their internal funding capacity might be more significant the Khrunichev's.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #13 on: 01/05/2016 09:38 PM »
The other issue is that it should lower their cost. Soyuz-2 has five different diameters, three different engines, six stages three liquids (RG-1, LOX and H2O2), two gases (nitrogen and helium) and many other inefficiencies.
Soyuz-5 would use a single diameter, two liquids (LOX/LNG) and use autopressurization, two engines, optimized pad flow, etc.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #14 on: 01/06/2016 05:23 AM »
The other issue is that it should lower their cost. Soyuz-2 has five different diameters, three different engines, six stages three liquids (RG-1, LOX and H2O2), two gases (nitrogen and helium) and many other inefficiencies.
Soyuz-5 would use a single diameter, two liquids (LOX/LNG) and use autopressurization, two engines, optimized pad flow, etc.

My car uses five different liquids (petrol, oil, engine coolant, brake fluid and wiper water). Using lots of different liquids (or gases) does not greatly effect a vehicle's cost efficiency as their cost is relatively small over the cost of the vehicle. The question is if the combined cost of developing and producing Soyuz 5 will be cheaper than continuing to make Soyuz 2.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline B. Hendrickx

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #15 on: 01/20/2016 08:54 PM »
http://tass.ru/en/science/850798

Quote
MOSCOW, January 20. /TASS/.
Russia’s space agency retains funds in new program for Phoenix rocket development

Expenditures on developing the Phoenix carrier rocket have been actually kept unchanged in Russia’s new federal space program for 2016-2025, according to the document released by the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) on Wednesday. Under the new document, the Phoenix project’s financing is expected at 29.3 billion rubles ($367 million) whereas the previous project stipulated the sum of over 30 billion rubles ($375 million). Under the new federal space program, the work to develop a medium-class new-generation space and rocket system (the Phoenix project) will begin from 2018. The Phoenix rocket is designed to deliver a payload of up to 17 tonnes to a low orbit (including as part of a manned flight program) and up to 2.5 tonnes to a geostationary orbit with the help of a booster.

The experimental tests of the rocket’s key elements are expected to be completed on the ground in 2025. Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said in late December that Russia had started work to create a super-heavy rocket with Phoenix as its first stage. This rocket will have a lifting capacity of over 100 tonnes. A source in the rocket and space industry earlier told TASS that Phoenix was considered as scientific and technical groundwork for developing a new carrier rocket for a manned flight program with the dimensions of the Zenit rocket. In the future, the new rocket can become a modular vehicle to comprise several units and can even be converted into a heavy-class rocket. RD-171 engines produced by Energomash research and production association and mounted on the Zenit rocket are considered for use as first stage engines.

Interesting that Fenix is linked to the manned programme. Does this mean they are considering to launch the Earth orbit version of the new-generation manned vehicle ("Federation") on Fenix rather than Angara-5P?

In another TASS report today (only in Russian) Roskosmos chief Igor Komarov is quoted as saying that for the time being there are no plans to build a Fenix pad at Vostochnyy, adding that a decision to build a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Phoenix will be made in 2017 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2600127

Yet another TASS report today (only in Russian) said a preliminary design for a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Fenix should be completed in 2018 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2599200

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #16 on: 01/20/2016 10:39 PM »
http://tass.ru/en/science/850798

Quote
MOSCOW, January 20. /TASS/.
Russia’s space agency retains funds in new program for Phoenix rocket development

Expenditures on developing the Phoenix carrier rocket have been actually kept unchanged in Russia’s new federal space program for 2016-2025, according to the document released by the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) on Wednesday. Under the new document, the Phoenix project’s financing is expected at 29.3 billion rubles ($367 million) whereas the previous project stipulated the sum of over 30 billion rubles ($375 million). Under the new federal space program, the work to develop a medium-class new-generation space and rocket system (the Phoenix project) will begin from 2018. The Phoenix rocket is designed to deliver a payload of up to 17 tonnes to a low orbit (including as part of a manned flight program) and up to 2.5 tonnes to a geostationary orbit with the help of a booster.

The experimental tests of the rocket’s key elements are expected to be completed on the ground in 2025. Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said in late December that Russia had started work to create a super-heavy rocket with Phoenix as its first stage. This rocket will have a lifting capacity of over 100 tonnes. A source in the rocket and space industry earlier told TASS that Phoenix was considered as scientific and technical groundwork for developing a new carrier rocket for a manned flight program with the dimensions of the Zenit rocket. In the future, the new rocket can become a modular vehicle to comprise several units and can even be converted into a heavy-class rocket. RD-171 engines produced by Energomash research and production association and mounted on the Zenit rocket are considered for use as first stage engines.

Interesting that Fenix is linked to the manned programme. Does this mean they are considering to launch the Earth orbit version of the new-generation manned vehicle ("Federation") on Fenix rather than Angara-5P?

In another TASS report today (only in Russian) Roskosmos chief Igor Komarov is quoted as saying that for the time being there are no plans to build a Fenix pad at Vostochnyy, adding that a decision to build a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Phoenix will be made in 2017 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2600127

Yet another TASS report today (only in Russian) said a preliminary design for a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Fenix should be completed in 2018 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2599200

it allows for redundancy, but Space Forces doesntreally want man rated a man rated Angara

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #17 on: 01/20/2016 11:01 PM »
http://tass.ru/en/science/850798

Quote
MOSCOW, January 20. /TASS/.
Russia’s space agency retains funds in new program for Phoenix rocket development

Expenditures on developing the Phoenix carrier rocket have been actually kept unchanged in Russia’s new federal space program for 2016-2025, according to the document released by the Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) on Wednesday. Under the new document, the Phoenix project’s financing is expected at 29.3 billion rubles ($367 million) whereas the previous project stipulated the sum of over 30 billion rubles ($375 million). Under the new federal space program, the work to develop a medium-class new-generation space and rocket system (the Phoenix project) will begin from 2018. The Phoenix rocket is designed to deliver a payload of up to 17 tonnes to a low orbit (including as part of a manned flight program) and up to 2.5 tonnes to a geostationary orbit with the help of a booster.

The experimental tests of the rocket’s key elements are expected to be completed on the ground in 2025. Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said in late December that Russia had started work to create a super-heavy rocket with Phoenix as its first stage. This rocket will have a lifting capacity of over 100 tonnes. A source in the rocket and space industry earlier told TASS that Phoenix was considered as scientific and technical groundwork for developing a new carrier rocket for a manned flight program with the dimensions of the Zenit rocket. In the future, the new rocket can become a modular vehicle to comprise several units and can even be converted into a heavy-class rocket. RD-171 engines produced by Energomash research and production association and mounted on the Zenit rocket are considered for use as first stage engines.

Interesting that Fenix is linked to the manned programme. Does this mean they are considering to launch the Earth orbit version of the new-generation manned vehicle ("Federation") on Fenix rather than Angara-5P?

In another TASS report today (only in Russian) Roskosmos chief Igor Komarov is quoted as saying that for the time being there are no plans to build a Fenix pad at Vostochnyy, adding that a decision to build a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Phoenix will be made in 2017 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2600127

Yet another TASS report today (only in Russian) said a preliminary design for a super heavy launch vehicle on the basis of Fenix should be completed in 2018 :
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2599200

it allows for redundancy, but Space Forces doesntreally want man rated a man rated Angara
http://tass.ru/kosmos/2599200
My understanding that in 2016-17 Roscosmos would prepare requirements for a medium class launcher tender (R&D Phoenix) and Preliminary Design of 17 tones LV would be completed at 2018.
Unfortunately there is a lot of confusion about Draft of FSP presented on Wed 20th of Jan.
R&D program Phoenix originally was lobbied by Samara Rocket center to get funding for MethaLOX propelled Soyuz V family, but FSP language had been changed since Dec 2015 - it seems to be that it would include development of Russian Zenit class launcher as well.   
Funding for SHLV components would be provided from 2017. Reslts of those  2 R&D programs would be used for SHLV development after 2025.
« Last Edit: 01/21/2016 10:42 PM by fregate »
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #18 on: 01/22/2016 05:23 AM »
The language "Lets study this a bit more." usually means an effort to cancel the program.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline fregate

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Re: Fenix Rocket
« Reply #19 on: 07/13/2016 02:40 AM »
The language "Lets study this a bit more." usually means an effort to cancel the program.
They have a BUDGET allocated by FSP 2016-2025 plus there is a political will - Putin would like to see a RUSSIAN SHLV, and R&D Phoenix (aka Feniks) should provide a boosters blocks for stage I.
« Last Edit: 07/15/2016 05:47 AM by fregate »
"Selene, the Moon. Selenginsk, an old town in Siberia: moon-rocket  town" Vladimir Nabokov

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