Author Topic: Shuttle and SLS public image  (Read 6740 times)

Offline johnfwhitesell

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #20 on: 06/27/2018 05:46 AM »
Framing it as purely about cost, when it's about cost-efficiency is misleading the public.

Or as I put it "The public will grow more interested in space when prices fall enough that missions are building towards something."

« Last Edit: 06/27/2018 07:07 AM by Lar »

Offline joek

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #21 on: 06/27/2018 06:46 AM »
Or as I put it "The public will grow more interested in space when prices fall enough that missions are building towards something."

Please explicate.  If there is any sense in that statement I fail to grasp it.

Offline Lar

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #22 on: 06/27/2018 07:07 AM »
Belay the cross-sniping.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline SimonFD

Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #23 on: 06/27/2018 07:33 AM »
I think getting excited about SLS is like being excited about a Jumbo Jet. It's wonderful the first time you see it fly, then it becomes more and more 'meh'.

It's the missions flown that will create the excitement/interest. Not only that, but the type of missions flown (e.g. Moon, Mars, and Beyond like someone promised once).

So, in my opinion, it's not what you've got it's what you do with it that matters.
Mrs Doyle: "What would you say to a cup of tea, Father?"
Father Jack: "FECK OFF, CUP!"

Offline chipguy

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #24 on: 06/27/2018 05:40 PM »
So, in my opinion, it's not what you've got it's what you do with it that matters.

Well the problem with SLS is it is so expensive that when you've finally got
it you can't afford to do anything with it. It's like an O. Henry short story
with NASA in it.

Offline johnfwhitesell

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #25 on: 06/27/2018 06:26 PM »
I think getting excited about SLS is like being excited about a Jumbo Jet. It's wonderful the first time you see it fly, then it becomes more and more 'meh'.

I like this metaphor but have a slightly different take.  A jumbo jet is really exciting when you think a jumbo jet is going to enable commerce.  10 years ago we thought jumbo jets would be more efficient so everyone was excited about them.  Now the market for Jumbos has disappeared as the market shifted to smaller planes so production might stop entirely on the A380 which was supposed to be the cornerstone of an air commerce.  That's the way things are supposed to go, you build what you need and if what you need changes you start building something else.

I hate on Boeing for their role on the SLS but I will give them major props for nailing the timing of their passenger jet market.  The people running the show there aren't idiots, they are just giving the customers what they want.  In passenger jet's their customers are responsive to the need for an efficient, competitive vehicle.  In rocketry their customers aren't demanding that, they're demanding a vehicle that keeps using shuttle hardware.  So I dont hate the SLS because it's a Boeing project, I hate it because it's a bad project.

Offline Slarty1080

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #26 on: 08/04/2018 06:20 PM »
Unless the BFR turns out to be an unmitigated disaster (possible, but IMHO unlikely) at some point there will be increasingly difficult questions to answer concerning SLS, such as why are you throwing that x hundred million dollars’ worth of precision engineering into the Atlantic Ocean a few minutes after launch?

No doubt this sort of question could be ignored for a while, but for how long?
It’s likely that at some point in the next 5 years or so the SLS will be overtaken by events and there will have to be a reorientation. It will be an interesting experiment in public psychology and political will.

Could raptor / BFR components eventually be built under license at existing facilities used for SLS to save jobs perhaps? I guess not, but something will have to give…
The first words spoken on Mars: "Humans have been wondering if there was any life on the planet Mars for many decades … well ... there is now!"

Offline TripleSeven

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #27 on: 08/04/2018 06:55 PM »
SLS has no public image, the public does not care a big about it

the reality of SLS is that it is so expensive that at current and likely NASA budgets...neither the Moon or Mars is a viable target

Offline Slarty1080

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #28 on: 08/04/2018 11:00 PM »
SLS has no public image, the public does not care a big about it

the reality of SLS is that it is so expensive that at current and likely NASA budgets...neither the Moon or Mars is a viable target

SLS has no public image at the moment, but might gain a very black image very quickly if and when news reports start coming in concerning NASA spending billions on a white elephant launcher project when they could buy a commercial BFR flight for a half/third/tenth the cost instead. I don't think they can admit to the real reason for the project (jobs).
The first words spoken on Mars: "Humans have been wondering if there was any life on the planet Mars for many decades … well ... there is now!"

Offline TripleSeven

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #29 on: 08/04/2018 11:08 PM »
SLS has no public image, the public does not care a big about it

the reality of SLS is that it is so expensive that at current and likely NASA budgets...neither the Moon or Mars is a viable target

SLS has no public image at the moment, but might gain a very black image very quickly if and when news reports start coming in concerning NASA spending billions on a white elephant launcher project when they could buy a commercial BFR flight for a half/third/tenth the cost instead. I don't think they can admit to the real reason for the project (jobs).

it will in my view happen faster than that

Offline okan170

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #30 on: 08/05/2018 03:46 AM »
For what its worth, whenever I talk to the generally uninformed public about it and the missions planned for it, people seem pretty pumped.  The idea that BFR is about to eat it alive is pretty limited to certain angry internet circles and op-ed pieces, as most people seem to be under the impression that Musk's timeline is very optimistic or fantastical- a pretty accurate impression if recent history is any indication.

Online theinternetftw

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #31 on: 08/05/2018 05:47 AM »
For what its worth, whenever I talk to the generally uninformed public about it and the missions planned for it, people seem pretty pumped.

Nathan, you might have a leg up in that you have a ton of sweet renders of the thing on tap :)

But also for what it's worth, when I've talked to generally uninformed people about SLS, they've seemed mildly interested.  And then when I talk to the same people about it a short time later, they've already forgotten that SLS exists (occasionally they'll remember NASA is building some kind of rocket).  This has happened several times.  From what I've seen, the interest is *that* low.  It is not just that no one knows.  Once they know, no one cares.  And they care so little that they immediately *literally forget that it exists* and move on with their lives.

Interestingly, most of these folks *love* Shuttle.

most people seem to be under the impression that Musk's timeline is very optimistic or fantastical

Not the generally uninformed public.  Ninety-nine percent of them don't know anything about BFR.  Or Musk's timelines.  They'll know who Elon Musk is.  And that he's rich.  And that he runs Tesla and "a rocket company."  And that he shot a car into space.  That's about it.

For the few in the generally uninformed public who do know about BFR, they don't take it seriously.  But not because of any knowledge whatsoever.  Just because it doesn't sound like a real thing.  And who can blame them?  It doesn't.  It sounds completely fantastical, like science fiction.

Whether it is or not is yet to be determined.

Note that SLS "taking us back to the moon, this time to stay" also doesn't sound like a real thing to them.  Once again, yet to be determined.

Edit: Added a word to improve context.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2018 05:55 AM by theinternetftw »

Offline speedevil

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #32 on: 08/05/2018 07:28 AM »
But it also hasn't gone on angry tirades about fake news
I note.

In this thread an ad by Pratt Wittney mentioned.

Text reads
Quote from:
While the other guys launch powerful press conferences, we power launches of people and critical payloads. In fact, we’ve powered 14 launches in 12 months with 100% success. While the other guys deliver press conferences, we deliver astronauts and important communication, science and national defense payloads. So, before you listen to their next promise, scan the tag and watch all 14 zero-fail launches. At FutureSpaceUSA.com

January 2012, a few months before CRS-1.
https://web.archive.org/web/20111229180319/http://www.futurespaceusa.com:80/about_us.html - seemingly as part of a push for the J2-X engine for SLS.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2018 07:36 AM by speedevil »

Offline su27k

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #33 on: 08/05/2018 08:33 AM »
it also hasn't gone on angry tirades about fake news

Really, what do you call this then

Quote
Unfortunately, the report is rife with factual errors and misleading comparisons that make it all but useless...

Or this

Quote
Unfortunately, a few recent headlines and ill-informed opinion editorials have suggested that the success of SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy test launch spells trouble for NASA — that somehow the agency’s own rocket, the powerful Space Launch System (SLS), is unnecessary. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Or this

Quote
Since the test flight of SpaceX's Falcon Heavy launch vehicle a few short months ago, many have questioned why we need SLS when commercial vehicles boast “bargain” prices. Their arguments center on the price-per-pound to orbit of commercial vehicles compared to SLS. However a price-per-pound comparison is practically meaningless...

Offline rayleighscatter

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #34 on: 08/05/2018 10:14 AM »
But it also hasn't gone on angry tirades about fake news
I note.

In this thread an ad by Pratt Wittney mentioned.

Text reads
Quote from:
While the other guys launch powerful press conferences, we power launches of people and critical payloads. In fact, we’ve powered 14 launches in 12 months with 100% success. While the other guys deliver press conferences, we deliver astronauts and important communication, science and national defense payloads. So, before you listen to their next promise, scan the tag and watch all 14 zero-fail launches. At FutureSpaceUSA.com

January 2012, a few months before CRS-1.
https://web.archive.org/web/20111229180319/http://www.futurespaceusa.com:80/about_us.html - seemingly as part of a push for the J2-X engine for SLS.

And SpaceX's rebuttal:

Quote
The company said it plans to launch a Dragon 2 spacecraft dubbed “Red Dragon” to Mars on a Falcon Heavy launch vehicle as soon as the next launch window for Mars missions, which opens in the spring of 2018.

and

Quote
SpaceX Chief Executive Elon Musk announced Feb. 27 that the company is pursuing plans to launch two people on a Dragon spacecraft around the moon in late 2018.


Offline spacetraveler

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #35 on: 08/05/2018 03:03 PM »
Block 2 will probably happen considering LOP-G is funded now and SLS is its launch craft so everyone saying SLS “doesn’t have a mission” well it has one now with the new budget

Not true.  It is not a given.  Congress has not passed a budget with it in it.

Really?I thought congress already passed the president’s 2019 budget?Is it waiting to be voted on? or was it regected and they are trying to push a different version through?

Congress never "passes the president's budget".

The "president's budget" is merely a request to Congress for what he would like to see. The enacted appropriations bills always look quite different, because those are the result of what members of Congress want, though they will consider the President's request and sometimes including some of the funding he wants.

Offline Slarty1080

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #36 on: 08/05/2018 04:54 PM »
SLS has no public image, the public does not care a big about it

the reality of SLS is that it is so expensive that at current and likely NASA budgets...neither the Moon or Mars is a viable target

SLS has no public image at the moment, but might gain a very black image very quickly if and when news reports start coming in concerning NASA spending billions on a white elephant launcher project when they could buy a commercial BFR flight for a half/third/tenth the cost instead. I don't think they can admit to the real reason for the project (jobs).

it will in my view happen faster than that

Probably true. I give it 1-2 launches and from 2-5 years before it's cancelled
The first words spoken on Mars: "Humans have been wondering if there was any life on the planet Mars for many decades … well ... there is now!"

Offline TripleSeven

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Re: Shuttle and SLS public image
« Reply #37 on: 08/05/2018 04:58 PM »
SLS has no public image, the public does not care a big about it

the reality of SLS is that it is so expensive that at current and likely NASA budgets...neither the Moon or Mars is a viable target

SLS has no public image at the moment, but might gain a very black image very quickly if and when news reports start coming in concerning NASA spending billions on a white elephant launcher project when they could buy a commercial BFR flight for a half/third/tenth the cost instead. I don't think they can admit to the real reason for the project (jobs).

it will in my view happen faster than that

Probably true. I give it 1-2 launches and from 2-5 years before it's cancelled

I "think" we get 1 but who knows...the politics are what is of concern here.  the first flight is as I understand it now into 2021 or headed that way...we are going to have an election for the Presidency before than and thats going to have a big affect on what comes next..

Plus we are in my view in for a year of unprecidented political turmoil...and with NASA's usual incompetence, who knows how long before the first one goes.

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