Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1800439 times)

Offline X_RaY

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...I'm not sure its proper to speak of "photon gas" in our context. ...


Teaching the photon gas in introductory physics
Harvey S. Leffa

http://www.cpp.edu/~hsleff/PhotonGasAJP.pdf

Quote from: Leffa
An important related point is that photons are everywhere.
That is, because all matter radiates, it is literally impossible
to have a region of space that is free of photons. In this
sense, the photon gas has the distinction of being ubiquitous,
another point that can pique the intellectual curiosity of students. 
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1382616#msg1382616
note point 2

have to study your gerat pdf link rodal  :)

Excellent!  Thank you for reminding me of that post
The paper do not offers that ad hoc but what do you think about the following?
Can S increase in direction of one cavity end because the photon gas heats up based on the lower volume and decrease in the other direction (The cavity is large in relationship to the wavelength!)?
On the other hand, a hotter side absorb and emit photons faster ???(I am thinking about the NASA thermal pictures)
I am not sure jet, may be i need a little bit help to clarify :-[
« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 08:20 PM by X_RaY »

Offline deltaMass

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Imagine a rigid container divided internally into two compartments. One side contains high pressure gas and the other side contains vacuum.

Does it move?

No, eppur si no muove!

I hope this helps with your "photon gas" musings.

Online Rodal

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...
The paper do not offers that ad hoc but what do you think about the following?
Can S increase in direction of the small end because the photon gas heats up based on the lower volume and decrease in direction of the big end?
On the other hand, a hotter side absorb and emit photons faster ???
I am not sure jet, may be i need a little bit help to clarify :-[
I have thought of multiple ways that unequal forces can be exerted from the inside, the roadblock is how can the center of mass self-accelerate unless something leaves the EM Drive. Conservation of momentum dictates that any such forces will be reacted somehow in order to keep the center of mass in a fixed position.  I do not know of a single thing in the Universe that its center of mass can self-accelerate by internal actions without the action of an external field or something being ejected.

As an excellent Astrophysicist recently told me: if there would be anything in the Universe capable of self-acceleration chances are we would have already observed such phenomenon by now.

Offline deltaMass

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Actually, a self-accelerating system does exist in theory, and it operates in the absence of any external fields, and it exhausts nothing.

Can anyone guess? (it's more fun this way)
« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 08:27 PM by deltaMass »

Online Rodal

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Actually, a self-accelerating system does exist in theory, and it operates in the absence of any external fields, and it exhausts nothing.

Can anyone guess? (it's more fun this way)
Bondi came up with one, but I'll bet we will never see it.  Besides it involves a kind of mass that has never been experimentally observed.

Rev. Mod. Phys. 29, 423 Published 1 July 1957
« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 08:32 PM by Rodal »

Offline deltaMass

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Well done. The system consists of an object of negative mass next to an object of ordinary, positive mass.

Another way to do this would be if you could vary mass without incurring any local back-reaction, as Woodward proposes. In this case, the algorithm is "push heavy, pull light".

« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 08:40 PM by deltaMass »

Offline CraigPichach

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Ok fine.. I'll dance (though I think it is foolish without an experimental results above background).  I don't think you should be thinking of it as gravity flowing down the drain - I'd think more fluid (gas) throttling down a pipe but with same mass flow; but where the velocities can't change. I think the question is does the frustrum RF enable you to treat the entire unit as filled with "photon gas" that then acts as a fluid in which case conservation of mass is now in place (mass = zero). Unlike a pipe however you can't change velocities that the only variable changing then is the density and you can stack as many photons as you like to cause an extreme imbalance.  Do you then end up creating "photon gas pressure" that disturbs the "quantum vacuum" (i.e. just like when you throttle a JT value you end up cooling the surroundings by dropping pressure within pipe - in this case do you end up disturbing the surroundings ("pushing photons?") to keep mass = zero in your fluid). I assume someone is thinking like this at Eagleworks as I've seen lots of presentations where magnetrohydrodynamics is argued is at play (i.e. they are dealing with a "fluid") and it is interacting with the quantum vacuum.


There have been quite a few attempts to recast basic physics in terms of some sort of vortex theory. Victor Schauberger springs to mind for example. The mathematics is replete with curl operators as expected. As far as I know none of these has succeeded in displacing fundamental mainstream views.

That's not to say that thinking that way is unproductive. Roger Penrose's "twistor" construct has produced many deep and probably useful insights in modern theory. Even Dirac, way back, had his own "spinor". But that's not really a vortex.
Thanks for the references to prior stuff. Can't seem to find a lot of links on EM vortices that don't involve Bigfoot or Time Travel  :o

Best I can determine, there's nothing precluding photons from sinking down the perverbial drain with the exception that gravity has a much weaker impact on a photon that it does a water molecule for your typical vortex. Vortices can be shaped outside of gravity via deflection, so here's where I'm stuck for now.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 08:49 PM by CraigPichach »

Offline deltaMass

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Indeed, one can actually build a self-accelerating system. But it has limited utility because of its limited lifetime. It works like this.

Take a railroad car and inside place another smaller car or "puck". The puck starts out full of sand, but continually leaks sand straight out the bottom via a slit, contactlessly. The puck bounces between the two walls of the cart, elastically. You give the system an initial push and you'll see it self-accelerate until the sand is all gone.

That's because it always hits the forward wall with more momentum than it will hit the back wall
« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 08:43 PM by deltaMass »

Offline WarpTech

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I just watched "Back to the Future 2" and there they travel to october 21, 2015 where there are hoverboards and a lot of flying cars, so you guys still have two and a half months  ;D

Well, they had better hurry.  The completion is already here!! :D

<snip>

It needs a track!


Todd

Online SeeShells

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I doubt it will fix it. The "rotation" looks more like simply reflections bouncing side to side, around a circle. 3 antenna will just have 3 overlapping sets of random reflections. We shall see...
Todd
To solve it, it is necessary to understand the fundamental mode shape one wants to excite: how the amplitude of the mode shape is supposed to vary along the intrinsic spherical coordinate system (certainly not the extrinsic Cartesian coordinate system).  The variation is governed by Associated Legendre Functions in the spherical polar angle, Spherical Bessel in the spherical radii, and Harmonic in the spherical azimuthal angle. 

The Cartesian system, and anything based on it is unnatural to the physical problem.
Dr. Rodal, I had to read that three times to pack that comment in....

shell
:)

OK, maybe this is better:

It is very difficult to excite a Transverse mode by trying to excite the circumferential field because 1) such attempts result in asymmetries: non-symmetric fields, and 2) The excitation has to be done with a precision as to location, and orientation that is usually impractical.  Both of these problems are due to the fact that the transverse circumferential field is at the periphery of the cavity, and that it is difficult to excite a circumferential field with an antenna defined in rectilinear Cartesian axes.

This is what Alesini, from CERN advises:
The best thing is to excite the longitudinal component of the mode shape:

The longitudinal axis is readily aligned with one of the Cartesian axes.

A) For the TM modes, excite the Electric longitudinal component by using a dipole antenna oriented perpendicular to the longitudinal Electric field.  Aero was very successful at doing this both with rfmwguy and Yang/Shell by placing a dipole antenna with its center at the axis of axi-symmetry of the truncated cone, perpendicular to the axis, at either end.  Please observe in the image below for TM113 in Yang/Shell that the antenna has to be long enough because there is NO electric field along the central axis itself


B)  For the TE modes, excite the Magnetic longitudinal component by using a loop antenna oriented such that the magnetic field goes through its loop.  Please observe in the image below for TE012 in Yang/Shell that the loop antenna should be positioned on the axis of axi-symmetry because the magnetic field is strongest there.  Position the loop where the vector field is strongest (orange-red)

Observe that for TM113, the electric field is strongest near the small base, that is why placing the antenna at the small end was so successful to excite the mode.

Observe that for TE012 the electric field is strongest at some distance from the end.

See attachments

I was all over the place trying to figure out what was going on with the "Square Loop" that I thought aero used in this latest presentation of meep off the sidewall. That's why I said a thank you to aero and imbfan a page or so ago for getting the square loop going. Now I know it was the snub monopole this makes more sense.

Shell
Shell

Offline CraigPichach

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I'm pretty sure this is why Eagleworks actually started to look into the EMDrive/Q-thruster, not for prop-less thrust but so they can warp space with the negative mass (and I think I saw some results showing that they think it is doing so). They seem to love the Alcubierre drive concept... though why not finish an impulse drive before building a fancy warp drive, eh???

Well done. The system consists of an object of negative mass next to an object of ordinary, positive mass.

Another way to do this would be if you could vary mass without incurring any local back-reaction, as Woodward proposes. In this case, the algorithm is "push heavy, pull light".

Offline deltaMass

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Woodward's equations predict a deltaMass (hi!) value given various parameters. If this value is greater than the rest mass of the thing, a naive prediction is that you get negative mass, albeit transiently every cycle.

Offline CraigPichach

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Does the copper frustrum really segregate "photon gas" pressure though??

Natural gas going down a pipeline dropping from 20bar to 1bar will have a piece of metal segregating it from the air around it HOWEVER in order to keep specific enthalpy constant it will cool down and in turn basically freeze the pipe and the environment  (i.e. mass is segregated but energy is not) to the point frost will form on the pipeline (i.e. the system isn't just what's inside the pipe). You then are manipulating mass outside the pipeline; water vapor is condensing as ice on the pipeline; hot air will move towards the cold air cooled by the pipe, etc.

Can you take the same concept (delta enthalpy = zero with a throttled fluid) and apply it to mass (mass = zero with a throttled photon gas fluid where velocity cannot change) and then have it where if on one side of the copper frustrum you have "high photon gas pressure" that outside the frustrum you rearrange "photon gas"that the overall system (i.e. the area around the copper frustrum) ends up arranging to have on average a "photon gas density"... and would this rearrange the quantum vacuum in such a way that your shooting out the vacuum from the back ("vacuum photon gas?" moving away from a high pressure zone to a low pressure zone) and pushing the frustrum forward. The Cashmir effect is real, so we know that the "vacuum photon gas" can generate a force.

99.99999% chance nothing is happening though but I think this might be what is happening if the EM-Effect/Q-Thruster phenomena is real... maybe something worth simulating if one can achieve experimental results above background noise.



Imagine a rigid container divided internally into two compartments. One side contains high pressure gas and the other side contains vacuum.

Does it move?

No, eppur si no muove!

I hope this helps with your "photon gas" musings.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 09:22 PM by CraigPichach »

Online Rodal

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I was all over the place trying to figure out what was going on with the "Square Loop" that I thought aero used in this latest presentation of meep off the sidewall. That's why I said a thank you to aero and imbfan a page or so ago for getting the square loop going. Now I know it was the snub monopole this makes more sense.

Shell
Shell
1) I forgot to put the Q value in the TE012 image (which is twice as high as the Q for TM113).  I updated the image in the post (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1413599#msg1413599) with the one that has the Q value.

2) aero tells me that he has been working on loop running loop antennas with Meed, and he is trying some runs as I write this. 

3) One thing we have learned from this is that the problems that NASA Eagleworks had with running the TE012 mode (which had resulted in the highest specific force according to their report) may have been due to the same problems we see with Meep: it is difficult to excite the TE mode with an offset snub antenna.  The problem NASA had not being able to get thrust with TE012 at 2.2 GHz without a dielectric may have been due to this...
« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 09:50 PM by Rodal »

Offline WarpTech

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Well done. The system consists of an object of negative mass next to an object of ordinary, positive mass.

Another way to do this would be if you could vary mass without incurring any local back-reaction, as Woodward proposes. In this case, the algorithm is "push heavy, pull light".

An object of negative mass is equivalent to an inflating ZPF and an object with with positive mass is equivalent to a contracting ZPF. :) That's the warp drive!
Todd

Offline deltaMass

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In my theory, one is a blue penguin and one is a red penguin. Coincidence? I think not8)

Offline Josave

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But there is another aspect I believe. Resonance shapes a locally stable 4-dimensional "body" of energy. 4-dimensional because we have real and imaginary parts that depend on locality.
(I do remember calculating these field forms back in college and I was always flabbergasted about their weird physical forms.)

Now, when we discuss Conservation of Energy we work under the assumption of a 3-dimensional space.
Hence when we bounce energy in a closed system back and forth, both directions should cancel out. But what happens if we expand that thought to 4 dimensions (add the imaginary part)?

If we could physically shape a frustum complementary to our energy "body" in a way that exposes its surface only in areas of the real part in one direction and the imaginary part in the other direction, should we get a "thrust"?
We would not need new particles. We would only work with complex (real and imaginary) physical concepts we already know.

Is such construct even possible?


To help in this question I recall Dr. Gerald Kaiser work "Electromagnetic inertia, reactive energy and energy flow velocity" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1105.4834.pdf and also this one :"Physical wavelets and their sources: Real physics in complex spacetime" http://arxiv.org/abs/math-ph/0303027 in which Kaiser uses the imaginary part as reactive energy or orientation in space-time.

To me, the first Kaiser paper (as a tool) together with McCulloch MiHsC theory (as very well armed model as I can say after second reading of his book http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Edge-Cosmological-Model-Inertia/dp/9814596256) is the clue to maybe create non trivial fields configurations that, let's say "disentangle" the trivial plane wave solution to Maxwell equation leaving behind inertia at rest.

I copy this stunning statement from Kaiser paper: "If |S(x)| < U(x), then the energy flow at x does not carry away all of the energy, leaving positive rest (reactive) energy and inertia densities at x". being S(x) the energy density and U(x) the energy current (Poynting vector)".

Returning to the McCulloch model, it can be used to create a number of Casimir modes in the big end of the cavity frustum larger than the modes in the small end of the cavity. But to do this some non linearity must be introduced (Kaiser notes in his seminal 1994 book that reflection in a curved surface of his electromagnetic wavelets can lead to this, McCulloch proposes the acceleration due to the reflection process itself...)

So, summarizing, working in resonance is only needed to hold a big amount of energy in the cavity, but to notice possible MiHsC effects maybe we need to introduce some kind of non linearity in the reflection process, allowing the EM field to present other non trivial configurations...

Offline deltaMass

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When an author proposes a radical new theory, it's incumbent upon him to propose experiments that are able to differentiate the predictions of his theory from canon.

Offline CraigPichach

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"Resonance shapes a locally stable 4-dimensional "body" of energy."

I'd go a step further - instead of just a "body" does it make a stable "fluid of photons" within - i.e. have you created conditions where photons even in a vacuum  are "flowing" under an applied stress (where photons from one end of the cavity are impacting photons on the other end of the cavity as a result of photon density)? Or to make it sound cool and quantum physics like - "have you created a fluid out of the quantum vacuum?".

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Just looking at the Mode TE012 inset into my model. Slight diff in side angle but expected that.

Shell


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