### Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1875389 times)

#### CraigPichach

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6520 on: 08/05/2015 06:02 PM »
Was thinking about it.. IF RF in the frustrum enables the photons-as-mass acting as a "contained fluid" and velocity is locked..  there is still conservation of mass (even if zero mass) in that case where mass = volume x density so your "photon density as mass" (vs. photons as energy) could adjust - and does this impact the "quantum vacuum"??. Or does that create "photon as fluid pressure on the vacuum" (negative mass)? Note that Eagleworks seems convinced that magnetohydrodynamics are in play so ironically I think you are going down the path I think they are on.

That being said.. because I think it needs to be done - I think someone should do an experiment an order of magnitude above background to confirm the phenomena is real.

Hmm, good question (though velocities will be larger at the smaller end as opposed to the larger end) - i.e. incompressible so Volume Flow 1 = Volume Flow 2 and Velocity = Volume Flow / Area. So Velocity1 x Area1 = Velocity 2 x Area 2. Quick check with units m3/s x 1/m2 = m/s. So if Velocity and Volume Flow are the same for photons... (hmm, are photons as mass "incompressible").

Reminds me of Joule-Thomson effect - you take a gas, don't allow heat transfer and throttle it (i.e. drop the pressure and allow it to expand). It's an adiabatic system so the temperature of the gas drops basically to keep that equation equaling zero.. in some cases to cyrogenic temperatures. I see it everyday, I get why they have to, but still don't get physically how the vibration of all those atoms adjust.

@deltamass and others - question O-the-Day

CoE and CoM and coriolis effect at luminal velocities (boom!)

Struggling with my theory a bit. Pour water (uncompressable) into a funnel (part of a frustum) and the Z axis velocities at the top (big end) exceed Z axis velocities at the bottom (small end). Right? (in flow and out flow equate)

If wrong, what is the relative speed of the water molecules to each other?

Now, substitute fixed speed photons in place of water molecules in a funnel (frustum). Something has to give.

What gives for CoE and CoM?

p.s. Don't tell me a wormhole opens up ;^)
This is where my theory is trying to go, but brain cells put up a brick wall. Cannot compress photons, velocity is fixed (or is it?), mass is variable according to einstein as C is approached...(tilt)!

So, I ponder...thanks for your post.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 06:04 PM by CraigPichach »

#### teitur

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6521 on: 08/05/2015 06:04 PM »
I just watched "Back to the Future 2" and there they travel to october 21, 2015 where there are hoverboards and a lot of flying cars, so you guys still have two and a half months

#### deltaMass

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6522 on: 08/05/2015 06:04 PM »
There have been quite a few attempts to recast basic physics in terms of some sort of vortex theory. Victor Schauberger springs to mind for example. The mathematics is replete with curl operators as expected. As far as I know none of these has succeeded in displacing fundamental mainstream views.

That's not to say that thinking that way is unproductive. Roger Penrose's "twistor" construct has produced many deep and probably useful insights in modern theory. Even Dirac, way back, had his own "spinor". But that's not really a vortex.

#### TheTraveller

##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6523 on: 08/05/2015 06:10 PM »
During the cordless and totally self contained rotary table EMDrive experiments, the following data will be monitored, data logged and streamed live.

Force generated - calculated
Angular velocity - measured
Angular acceleration - calculated & measured
Forward Rf power - measured
Reflected Rf power - measured
VSWR - calculated
Frequency - measured
Rf amp power consumed - measured
Internal frustum pressure - measured
End plate, side wall and ambient temperature - measured

Any comments on something else to monitor?
Time
Date
Local Magnetic Field
Apx location
Temperature
Humidity
A compass close by to view
Vibration
Digital Stop Watch
Heavy Power Devices locally ie: Transformers
Any High Voltage Power Lines
Turn off Any Fluorescent Lights or if needed screen in Faraday cage (transformer inside)

About all I can think of after the first sip cup of coffee.

Shell
...
Filming both end plates with an IR camera to show mode shapes?

Voltage feeding the RF amp?  (may already be part of your V*I "Rf amp power consumed")

Battery voltage?

Yes both I and V are monitored and logged.

Rf amp power consumed is then calculated from those monitored values.

Additionally the Rf amp reports (via an analogue output) in real time both Forward and Reflected Power, so I know the real power being pushed into the frustum. Can then compare with battery power consumed.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

#### rfcavity

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6524 on: 08/05/2015 06:18 PM »
To measure leakage, I would use a field strength meter. I generally use Narda.
http://www.narda-sts.us/products_highfreq_bband.php

These are too expensive to own for personal use, but they can be rented by the month for much more reasonable prices. You can get them NIST calibrated but that's probably overkill for this.

#### deltaMass

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6525 on: 08/05/2015 06:20 PM »
I just posted about Likes being removed, and my post was removed. Perhaps someone would be polite enough to explain that?

#### AnalogMan

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6526 on: 08/05/2015 06:25 PM »
I just posted about Likes being removed, and my post was removed. Perhaps someone would be polite enough to explain that?

See http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32793.msg1413588#msg1413588

Forum is being tinkered with.

#### TheTraveller

##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6527 on: 08/05/2015 06:25 PM »
Why is there still talk of cutoff? I thought this forum has carefully been over that there is no real cut-off for tapered cavities like the EmDrive.  So, why are we back to this kind of talk?

That may be nice theory but both Shawyer and Prof Yang talk of cutoff and operating above it.

Shawyer advised me there is no Force generation, no Q and no resonance if the small end operates at or below cutoff. Cutoff as defined via cylindrical waveguide formula, based on diameter, mode and external frequency.

Roger sent me an email, after seeing my frustum design Mark 1 on NSF, advising me my small end was too small. So I redesigned for a lower operational freq of 2.3GHz to ensure the operational 2.45GHz small end diameter was well above cutoff.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

#### Rodal

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6528 on: 08/05/2015 06:28 PM »
...
I doubt it will fix it. The "rotation" looks more like simply reflections bouncing side to side, around a circle. 3 antenna will just have 3 overlapping sets of random reflections. We shall see...
Todd
To solve it, it is necessary to understand the fundamental mode shape one wants to excite: how the amplitude of the mode shape is supposed to vary along the intrinsic spherical coordinate system (certainly not the extrinsic Cartesian coordinate system).  The variation is governed by Associated Legendre Functions in the spherical polar angle, Spherical Bessel in the spherical radii, and Harmonic in the spherical azimuthal angle.

The Cartesian system, and anything based on it is unnatural to the physical problem.
Dr. Rodal, I had to read that three times to pack that comment in....

shell

OK, maybe this is better:

It is very difficult to excite a Transverse mode by trying to excite the circumferential field because 1) such attempts result in asymmetries: non-symmetric fields, and 2) The excitation has to be done with a precision as to location, and orientation that is usually impractical.  Both of these problems are due to the fact that the transverse circumferential field is at the periphery of the cavity, and that it is difficult to excite a circumferential field with an antenna defined in rectilinear Cartesian axes.

This is what Alesini, from CERN advises:
The best thing is to excite the longitudinal component of the mode shape:

The longitudinal axis is readily aligned with one of the Cartesian axes.

A) For the TM modes, excite the Electric longitudinal component by using a dipole antenna oriented perpendicular to the longitudinal Electric field.  Aero was very successful at doing this both with rfmwguy and Yang/Shell by placing a dipole antenna with its center at the axis of axi-symmetry of the truncated cone, perpendicular to the axis, at either end.  Please observe in the image below for TM113 in Yang/Shell that the antenna has to be long enough because there is NO electric field along the central axis itself

B)  For the TE modes, excite the Magnetic longitudinal component by using a loop antenna oriented such that the magnetic field goes through its loop.  Please observe in the image below for TE012 in Yang/Shell that the loop antenna should be positioned on the axis of axi-symmetry because the magnetic field is strongest there.  Position the loop where the vector field is strongest (orange-red)

Observe that for TM113, the electric field is strongest near the small base, that is why placing the antenna at the small end was so successful to excite the mode.

Observe that for TE012 the electric field is strongest at some distance from the end.

See attachments

« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 09:43 PM by Rodal »

#### TheTraveller

##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6529 on: 08/05/2015 06:31 PM »
To measure leakage, I would use a field strength meter. I generally use Narda.
http://www.narda-sts.us/products_highfreq_bband.php

These are too expensive to own for personal use, but they can be rented by the month for much more reasonable prices. You can get them NIST calibrated but that's probably overkill for this.

Plan to do spectrum scans at a constant distance from the frustum.

Will be using 3 Faraday Cages. One around the EMDrive. One around the Rf amp. One as a metal box with the control system inside. All wiring will be shielded, with EMI ferrite filters on all the power leads and any long leads, even though they are shielded.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

#### rfmwguy

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6530 on: 08/05/2015 06:33 PM »
There have been quite a few attempts to recast basic physics in terms of some sort of vortex theory. Victor Schauberger springs to mind for example. The mathematics is replete with curl operators as expected. As far as I know none of these has succeeded in displacing fundamental mainstream views.

That's not to say that thinking that way is unproductive. Roger Penrose's "twistor" construct has produced many deep and probably useful insights in modern theory. Even Dirac, way back, had his own "spinor". But that's not really a vortex.
Thanks for the references to prior stuff. Can't seem to find a lot of links on EM vortices that don't involve Bigfoot or Time Travel

Best I can determine, there's nothing precluding photons from sinking down the perverbial drain with the exception that gravity has a much weaker impact on a photon that it does a water molecule for your typical vortex. Vortices can be shaped outside of gravity via deflection, so here's where I'm stuck for now.

#### deltaMass

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6531 on: 08/05/2015 06:39 PM »
It gets messy with GR and light speed because of the whacky coordinate systems that can be chosen - Rindler coordinates come to mind. Even energy conservation gets flakey in GR in certain coordinate systems. My advice - Run Away, Run Away!

#### mwvp

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6532 on: 08/05/2015 07:15 PM »
@deltamass and others - question O-the-Day

CoE and CoM and coriolis effect at luminal velocities (boom!)

Struggling with my theory a bit. Pour water (uncompressable) into a funnel (part of a frustum) and the Z axis velocities at the top (big end) exceed Z axis velocities at the bottom (small end). Right? (in flow and out flow equate)

If wrong, what is the relative speed of the water molecules to each other?

Now, substitute fixed speed photons in place of water molecules in a funnel (frustum). Something has to give.

What gives for CoE and CoM?

p.s. Don't tell me a wormhole opens up ;^)

I have vague memories of rotation and irrotational vortices with radial differentials in velocity, but regarding photons, they are bosons, meaning you can stack as many as you like on top of each other and they don't care (in nonlinear field theory; 4-wave mixing and such notwithstanding).

I'm not sure its proper to speak of "photon gas" in our context. The only other context I've heard of for that term is the x-ray plasma of Teller-Ulam H-bombs, a fusion plasma compressed by x-rays.

But with respect to frustrum, or graded-index photonic media, tapered microstrips, et. the Er and Mu-r of the media results in dispersion, wavelength compression and reaction forces in the media.

You got me started a few days back with that document you referenced, and I found some Konstantin Meyl and some Eric Dollard youtube videos and lit., discussing Tesla scalar waves and vortice electromagnetics and much, much more!

I shall need some industrial-strength, if not weapons-grade hemp-oil to lubricate all that stuff enough to digest.

#### demofsky

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6533 on: 08/05/2015 07:16 PM »
I just watched "Back to the Future 2" and there they travel to october 21, 2015 where there are hoverboards and a lot of flying cars, so you guys still have two and a half months

« Last Edit: 08/05/2015 07:17 PM by demofsky »

#### Rodal

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6534 on: 08/05/2015 07:22 PM »
...I'm not sure its proper to speak of "photon gas" in our context. ...

Teaching the photon gas in introductory physics
Harvey S. Leffa

http://www.cpp.edu/~hsleff/PhotonGasAJP.pdf

Quote from: Leffa
An important related point is that photons are everywhere.
That is, because all matter radiates, it is literally impossible
to have a region of space that is free of photons. In this
sense, the photon gas has the distinction of being ubiquitous,
another point that can pique the intellectual curiosity of students.

#### rfmwguy

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6535 on: 08/05/2015 07:24 PM »
@deltamass and others - question O-the-Day

CoE and CoM and coriolis effect at luminal velocities (boom!)

Struggling with my theory a bit. Pour water (uncompressable) into a funnel (part of a frustum) and the Z axis velocities at the top (big end) exceed Z axis velocities at the bottom (small end). Right? (in flow and out flow equate)

If wrong, what is the relative speed of the water molecules to each other?

Now, substitute fixed speed photons in place of water molecules in a funnel (frustum). Something has to give.

What gives for CoE and CoM?

p.s. Don't tell me a wormhole opens up ;^)

I have vague memories of rotation and irrotational vortices with radial differentials in velocity, but regarding photons, they are bosons, meaning you can stack as many as you like on top of each other and they don't care (in nonlinear field theory; 4-wave mixing and such notwithstanding).

I'm not sure its proper to speak of "photon gas" in our context. The only other context I've heard of for that term is the x-ray plasma of Teller-Ulam H-bombs, a fusion plasma compressed by x-rays.

But with respect to frustrum, or graded-index photonic media, tapered microstrips, et. the Er and Mu-r of the media results in dispersion, wavelength compression and reaction forces in the media.

You got me started a few days back with that document you referenced, and I found some Konstantin Meyl and some Eric Dollard youtube videos and lit., discussing Tesla scalar waves and vortice electromagnetics and much, much more!

I shall need some industrial-strength, if not weapons-grade hemp-oil to lubricate all that stuff enough to digest.

lol...Yes, I might need to visit Colorado in the next few days if I can't get past this rabbit hole

Think its the possible reaction force outside the media thats got me hooked on this possibility. Hey if spooky action at a distance is ok, then so is spooky action of a frustum on a fulcrum is fine too...ha!

#### X_RaY

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6536 on: 08/05/2015 07:34 PM »
...I'm not sure its proper to speak of "photon gas" in our context. ...

Teaching the photon gas in introductory physics
Harvey S. Leffa

http://www.cpp.edu/~hsleff/PhotonGasAJP.pdf

Quote from: Leffa
An important related point is that photons are everywhere.
That is, because all matter radiates, it is literally impossible
to have a region of space that is free of photons. In this
sense, the photon gas has the distinction of being ubiquitous,
another point that can pique the intellectual curiosity of students.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1382616#msg1382616
note point 2

#### mwvp

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6537 on: 08/05/2015 07:43 PM »
...I'm not sure its proper to speak of "photon gas" in our context. ...

Teaching the photon gas in introductory physics
Harvey S. Leffa
http://www.cpp.edu/~hsleff/PhotonGasAJP.pdf

Thanks, I'll have a look a bit later, got to run now. I appreciate new perspectives on physics, keeps me challenging my preconceptions.

WRT that great paper you wrote with the very interesting amplitude vs. frequency plots, if my conjecture about dynamic instability/negative inertial resistance and zero static thrust is correct (the "Sagnac ratchet", the sharper the phase-slope at "cut-off" the better (at low-acceleration) since the doppler-induced selective sideband filtering will be more effective. Using a double-tuned configuration, with a circulator to dissipate the lower sideband faster should be more effective.

I got my system up finally, and after I finish a couple months of old emails I can start using Meep!

#### Rodal

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6538 on: 08/05/2015 07:45 PM »
...I'm not sure its proper to speak of "photon gas" in our context. ...

Teaching the photon gas in introductory physics
Harvey S. Leffa

http://www.cpp.edu/~hsleff/PhotonGasAJP.pdf

Quote from: Leffa
An important related point is that photons are everywhere.
That is, because all matter radiates, it is literally impossible
to have a region of space that is free of photons. In this
sense, the photon gas has the distinction of being ubiquitous,
another point that can pique the intellectual curiosity of students.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37642.msg1382616#msg1382616
note point 2

Excellent!  Thank you for reminding me of that post

#### mwvp

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##### Re: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3
« Reply #6539 on: 08/05/2015 07:50 PM »
lol...Yes, I might need to visit Colorado in the next few days if I can't get past this rabbit hole

Think its the possible reaction force outside the media thats got me hooked on this possibility. Hey if spooky action at a distance is ok, then so is spooky action of a frustum on a fulcrum is fine too...ha!

Forgot to mention, volume 3 of the MIT Rad Lab series mentions thermally stabilizing magnetrons by heating, yes, heating them.

I shouldn't speak despairingly of Dollard or Meyl. Both had some interesting, (even factual!, ok, well mostly factual perhaps) things to say, and I learned a few things. Especially liked Dollard's history of electrical engineering. Tried to find something last night about Steinmetz' analysis methods for power transmission, nothing on wikipedia. Seems like Laplace transforms?

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