Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1803793 times)

Offline Star One

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Internet is really getting wild about the latest development about the EmDrive. I see a lot of new posts. Only few are sceptical so far.

I found one post today that already have 26 thousand shares just today. It usually triples in two more days. http://www.sciencealert.com/independent-scientists-confirm-that-the-impossible-em-drive-produces-thrust
This actually may hit major news.

Dr. BagelBites dont get eaten by the newspaper guys there. We would surely miss you.

Here is that sceptical article. It is sceptical but actualy have over 18 thousands shares already and 2 thousand plus visitors just this hour. http://io9.com/no-german-scientists-have-not-confirmed-the-impossibl-1720573809

Great just what we don't need an invasion of the believers & sceptics again.:(

I hear you there Mr. Star One

Sean Caroll reaction to latest development  http://www.outerplaces.com/science/item/9455-impossible-and-controversial-em-drive-can-get-us-to-the-moon-in-four-hours

“My insight is that the EMDrive is complete crap and a waste of time,” said Carroll. “Right there in the abstract this paper says, ‘Our test campaign can not confirm or refute the claims of the EMDrive’, so I’m not sure what the news is. I’m going to spend my time thinking about ideas that don’t violate conservation of momentum.”

As said above same old, same old with base language doing him no favours.

Offline zen-in

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...

Here is that sceptical article. It is sceptical but actualy have over 18 thousands shares already and 2 thousand plus visitors just this hour. http://io9.com/no-german-scientists-have-not-confirmed-the-impossibl-1720573809

Great just what we don't need an invasion of the believers & sceptics again.:(

I hear you there Mr. Star One

Sean Caroll reaction to latest development  http://www.outerplaces.com/science/item/9455-impossible-and-controversial-em-drive-can-get-us-to-the-moon-in-four-hours

“My insight is that the EMDrive is complete crap and a waste of time,” said Carroll. “Right there in the abstract this paper says, ‘Our test campaign can not confirm or refute the claims of the EMDrive’, so I’m not sure what the news is. I’m going to spend my time thinking about ideas that don’t violate conservation of momentum.”

I'll just throw this idea out, as I have several times before:   Why not try mounting heating coils inside the waveguide and cavity then apply a few hundred Watts of DC power to them.   Is a force detected?  Does it continue after the power is turned off?   I am sorry if I am starting to sound like a broken record. but has anyone done this?

Offline Rodal

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...
I'll just throw this idea out, as I have several times before:   Why not try mounting heating coils inside the waveguide and cavity then apply a few hundred Watts of DC power to them.   Is a force detected?  Does it continue after the power is turned off?   I am sorry if I am starting to sound like a broken record. but has anyone done this?
This is a good idea.

Yang did something like that but just to measure temperatures.  To my knowledge he did not report any forces (or report putting it in the force measuring device like that)

SeeShells: could you try this idea in your experiment ?

Offline SeeShells

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@Rodal
1.Thanks for verification (picture Tajmar device yesterday @4,556GHz).
My calculation was verry close :)

2. impressing picture of the fractal antennas... like that
But for what is that good in the frustrum? This type of antenna will be use to get large bandwide, for multiband mobilephones for example. We don't need large BW.
What is need is ~constand impedance match in the possible drift BW if a high Q is recommend like discussed before?
 
3.
"3) We also verified that one cannot excite Transverse Electric (TE) modes with a dipole antenna, regardless of orientation or placement in the truncated cone, the mode excited by a dipole antenna is a Transverse Magnetic (TM) mode."

At the center it doesn't work.

I remember that is possible to get TE resonance with a simple dipole:
(rfmwguy posted something similar / plans for his frustrum...)
 It's most simple for TE01p. At this mode there are currents in Phi vector inside the metallic endplate, the strongest at the radius who the besselfunktion is maximal.
Place a dipole at this radius close to the plate, E-field vector in Phi direction(tangetial to the radius).
The result will be the correct mode if the cone has the correct length to catch that eigenfrequence.

Something similar is possible at the sidewall, one have to activate currents in the right direction for the mode in the wall..
of course one need a full 3D model

very interesting posts today too much to read all after long day full of work  :-[

Very nice post X_Ray.  I was thinking of potentially using a 1/10 wave loop (like the square one I posted as it could be modeled) to excite a TE mode center in either center plate. The bandwidth should be around 20-30 mhz. Thoughts?

Also won't a loop on the side wall excite either mode depending on orientation?

Would love your feedback.

Shell

garbage wording.
Can you repost a link to your setup please?
I'm a little tired today, don't wanna search...
I think up to a quater wavelength will work like you want without bigger problems.
couple the end of the loop direct to the copper( matching capacitor will also work between loops end and copper)
Picture:
In general,pace the antenna in one of the positions like in the sketch.

Mode Shape TE012   
Length 0.24   
big diameter 0.201   
small diameter 0.1492      
cone 1/2 angle 6.159   
In Meters

Get something cold with ice, prop you feet up and relax. Sounds like a yucky day. Thanks for doing this after a hard day.

Shell
I get 2,449GHz for TE012 with this dimensions(flat end plates)   :D
surface conductivity is lower in your case(perforated copper), the antenna also cause a tiny frequency shift, it will be a little less than the eigenfrequency ;) ~10...100MHz lower is possible i think
Try it, we will see.
 :)
Can you measure S11 when your build is done? I'm curious about the data.

 2,4490862069GHz

Yes, I have a VNA and a neat little 3Ghz SA that's also a USB. I plan on posting pictures and data for everyone to pick over and comment.

Online Left Field

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In case anyone was unaware (like me!), there is a livesteam available [edit: this is not the talk we are looking for unfortunately.   ]:

http://livestream.com/AIAAvideo/PropEnergy2015
« Last Edit: 07/28/2015 08:25 PM by Left Field »

Offline SeeShells

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...
I'll just throw this idea out, as I have several times before:   Why not try mounting heating coils inside the waveguide and cavity then apply a few hundred Watts of DC power to them.   Is a force detected?  Does it continue after the power is turned off?   I am sorry if I am starting to sound like a broken record. but has anyone done this?
This is a good idea.

Yang did something like that but just to measure temperatures.  To my knowledge he did not report any forces (or report putting it in the force measuring device like that)

SeeShells: could you try this idea in your experiment ?
It's in the testing profiles. Nice I can get into the cavity. It's a little hotplate heater but still need to calculate out where to put the setting ie: warmer, med or HOT!


Offline deltaMass

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In case anyone was unaware (like me!), there is a livesteam available:

http://livestream.com/AIAAvideo/PropEnergy2015
Does not apply to Tajmar's and Fearn's sessions, unfortunately, I believe.

Offline CW

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...

Here is that sceptical article. It is sceptical but actualy have over 18 thousands shares already and 2 thousand plus visitors just this hour. http://io9.com/no-german-scientists-have-not-confirmed-the-impossibl-1720573809

Great just what we don't need an invasion of the believers & sceptics again.:(

I hear you there Mr. Star One

Sean Caroll reaction to latest development  http://www.outerplaces.com/science/item/9455-impossible-and-controversial-em-drive-can-get-us-to-the-moon-in-four-hours

“My insight is that the EMDrive is complete crap and a waste of time,” said Carroll. “Right there in the abstract this paper says, ‘Our test campaign can not confirm or refute the claims of the EMDrive’, so I’m not sure what the news is. I’m going to spend my time thinking about ideas that don’t violate conservation of momentum.”

I'll just throw this idea out, as I have several times before:   Why not try mounting heating coils inside the waveguide and cavity then apply a few hundred Watts of DC power to them.   Is a force detected?  Does it continue after the power is turned off?   I am sorry if I am starting to sound like a broken record. but has anyone done this?

Fun coincidence: I was thinking about proposing the exact same thing today. Just didn't have the time to post it yet.
:D
Reality is weirder than fiction

Online Left Field

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In case anyone was unaware (like me!), there is a livesteam available:

http://livestream.com/AIAAvideo/PropEnergy2015
Does not apply to Tajmar's and Fearn's sessions, unfortunately, I believe.
You are right. I was desperately trying to match it with what DrBagelBites was blogging. Darn. Many thanks for the live blog Dr!

Offline Rodal

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Live Blog on Heidi Fearn:

6 minutes ago This is not a Dean drive, and it is not a thermal effect


Why is it not a Dean drive? Dean drive relies on a sort of "ratcheting" effect. /u/DrBagelBites
« Last Edit: 07/28/2015 08:49 PM by Rodal »

Offline flux_capacitor

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So Tajmar previously NULLIFIED the claims of Prof. Woodward according to this quote ?:

Quote
Martin Tajmar did an independent series of replication experiments on work performed by James Woodward (the ‘Woodward effect’), while working at the Austrian Research Center’s department of electric propulsion physics. While that work produced a null result,

The paper you're talking about:

Buldrini, Nembo; Tajmar, Martin; Marhold, Klaus; Seifert, Bernhard (February 2006). "Experimental Study of the Machian Mass Fluctuation Effect Using a μN Thrust Balance". AIP Conference Proceedings. Space Technology and Applications International Forum-STAIFF 2006, Albuquerque, New Mexico 813. American Institute of Physics. pp. 1313–1320. doi:10.1063/1.2169316.


Paper attached. Make your own idea about the setup and conclusions.

EDIT: Please be aware that Tajmar tested a particular model of Woodward's MLT (Mach-Lorentz Thruster) called Mach5C which Woodward later completely abandoned in favor of solid-state, piezoelectric PZT discs known as a MET (Mach-Effect Thruster). To date, no MET experiment has been independently replicated.

EDIT2: This paper doesn't provide any insight on real experimental conclusions. It is only a progress report stating "we will do this, record that". Is there a Tajmar paper reporting the actual RESULTS? No other reference from Tajmar about Woodward, other that this one, is referenced in the literature.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2015 10:02 PM by flux_capacitor »

Offline X_RaY

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@Rodal
1.Thanks for verification (picture Tajmar device yesterday @4,556GHz).
My calculation was verry close :)

2. impressing picture of the fractal antennas... like that
But for what is that good in the frustrum? This type of antenna will be use to get large bandwide, for multiband mobilephones for example. We don't need large BW.
What is need is ~constand impedance match in the possible drift BW if a high Q is recommend like discussed before?
 
3.
"3) We also verified that one cannot excite Transverse Electric (TE) modes with a dipole antenna, regardless of orientation or placement in the truncated cone, the mode excited by a dipole antenna is a Transverse Magnetic (TM) mode."

At the center it doesn't work.

I remember that is possible to get TE resonance with a simple dipole:
(rfmwguy posted something similar / plans for his frustrum...)
 It's most simple for TE01p. At this mode there are currents in Phi vector inside the metallic endplate, the strongest at the radius who the besselfunktion is maximal.
Place a dipole at this radius close to the plate, E-field vector in Phi direction(tangetial to the radius).
The result will be the correct mode if the cone has the correct length to catch that eigenfrequence.

Something similar is possible at the sidewall, one have to activate currents in the right direction for the mode in the wall..
of course one need a full 3D model

very interesting posts today too much to read all after long day full of work  :-[

Very nice post X_Ray.  I was thinking of potentially using a 1/10 wave loop (like the square one I posted as it could be modeled) to excite a TE mode center in either center plate. The bandwidth should be around 20-30 mhz. Thoughts?

Also won't a loop on the side wall excite either mode depending on orientation?

Would love your feedback.

Shell

garbage wording.
Can you repost a link to your setup please?
I'm a little tired today, don't wanna search...
I think up to a quater wavelength will work like you want without bigger problems.
couple the end of the loop direct to the copper( matching capacitor will also work between loops end and copper)
Picture:
In general,pace the antenna in one of the positions like in the sketch.

Mode Shape TE012   
Length 0.24   
big diameter 0.201   
small diameter 0.1492      
cone 1/2 angle 6.159   
In Meters

Get something cold with ice, prop you feet up and relax. Sounds like a yucky day. Thanks for doing this after a hard day.

Shell
I get 2,449GHz for TE012 with this dimensions(flat end plates)   :D
surface conductivity is lower in your case(perforated copper), the antenna also cause a tiny frequency shift, it will be a little less than the eigenfrequency ;) ~10...100MHz lower is possible i think
Try it, we will see.
 :)
Can you measure S11 when your build is done? I'm curious about the data.

 2,4490862069GHz

Yes, I have a VNA and a neat little 3Ghz SA that's also a USB. I plan on posting pictures and data for everyone to pick over and comment.

Central loop close to diameter to bessel 1' max will also work fine, but not so close to the end plate. Look at the sketch it is trivial :)
At the sidewall i think 1/4 wavelength (inside frustum) distance from the pate the coupling factor will be the best.
Use whatever a tuner please, and calibrate the system before {open(r=+1_j0),load(50R),short(r=-1_j0)}
I know calibration kits are expensive but it works, uncalibrated your VNA is less helpful.
https://www.maurymw.com/Precision/VNA_Cal_Kits.php
many ohter producer are on the road

note: i work with 100k$+ machines, don't know if your USB-series-VNA have a cal mode (it has to have i think ;) )

« Last Edit: 07/28/2015 09:20 PM by X_RaY »

Offline Star One

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From the live blog

Presentation cut short. Room is absolutely at capacity. /u/DrBagelBites

Thrust vs. voltage. Not linear, not quadratic, not quite cubic, fits V4 /u/DrBagelBites

Mass equation from HN-theory.  /u/DrBagelBites

Take limit of smooth fluid approximation of the universe, and you get Einstein field equations. /u/DrBagelBites

Talking about Mach's Principle and action at a distance and cosmology. /u/DrBagelBites

Plug for Making Starships and Stargates. /u/DrBagelBites

Quantifies the magnitude of the predicted mass fluctuations in accelerated objects. /u/DrBagelBites

Discussing the Mach effect equation now. /u/DrBagelBites

Around 37 and 35 kHz /u/DrBagelBites

Why did one device not show data and the other one did? V and V2 were in phase on the device with the effect. Not in phase on the other. /u/DrBagelBites

Shows temperature vs effect. Little to no correlation. So, temperature is not responsible. /u/DrBagelBites

At 220-230 V, nothing really happened.
Pulse is happening transiently.  /u/DrBagelBites

At 180 V, there were multiple transient effects. /u/DrBagelBites

Bit of a spike mid-sweep. Thrust is still in noise. /u/DrBagelBites

Two accelerometers in each stack. /u/DrBagelBites

Data was averaged. Forward-reverse thrust in order to cancel out some extraneous data. /u/DrBagelBites

Learned that as it heats up, the resonant frequency changes. So, they tested by sweeping through a frequency range between two straight pulses at a single frequency. /u/DrBagelBites
« Last Edit: 07/28/2015 09:00 PM by Star One »

Offline jknuble

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Ah hah.  That seems reasonable at least.  My apologies.  (I also don't know where one can see the moderator comments.)

-JK

Offline Star One

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From the live blog again

Thanks everyone for stopping by! /u/DrBagelBites

Encourages students (uni and up) to try and research.

Send him your ideas, he says.  /u/DrBagelBites

Presentation is over.  /u/DrBagelBites

Didn't get a chance to ask questions, unfortunately. /u/DrBagelBites

Need another 1-2 years, to get to the bottom of it, he says. /u/DrBagelBites

Plans on continuing tests in vacuum. Variable frequency tuning of an EMDrive in the future. /u/DrBagelBites

Conclusion, tested out air.
In bold, our results can not confirm or refute anything. /u/DrBagelBites

Effect now smaller +18/-27 micronewton. About 1/3 prediction.
Q factor measured again, only 20 now. /u/DrBagelBites

Vertical direction (control?) Is similar to postive /u/DrBagelBites

Effect has now "right direction". Clear difference between positive and negative. /u/DrBagelBites

Keep power cables in same position always in pairs. /u/DrBagelBites

Turn EMDrive such that magnetron is as far as way as possible.

Remove magnetic damping with oil damping. Went to supermarket and got cooking oil. /u/DrBagelBites

He is confident it is not air.  /u/DrBagelBites

Air seems not to be the cause- suspect magnetic influence (Mag damping-magnetron) /u/DrBagelBites

Approaching from low to high voltage. (150 V produces microwaves for magnetron)
Power supply over current shutdown at full power.
Shorter pulses- similar thrusts as ambient. /u/DrBagelBites

Temperature curve is very similar to thrust decay curve. /u/DrBagelBites

Checks: Only HV (no effect), box around EMDrive (air currents)- no change. /u/DrBagelBites

Control produced largest effect.  /u/DrBagelBites

Nano Newton thrust resolution.
Optical table in vacuum chamber.  /u/DrBagelBites

On to torsion test.  /u/DrBagelBites

That was on scale. /u/DrBagelBites

Why not going back to zero once turned off? Doesnt quite know. /u/DrBagelBites

Up* /u/DrBagelBites

Uo to 38 tests averaged per direction. /u/DrBagelBites

Phone battery is at 15%. Cutting it close. /u/DrBagelBites

Thrust was similar to predicted. (2 x 98.2 micronewton Up-Down) /u/DrBagelBites

Took half an hour to see any thermal signature after wrapping in wool. /u/DrBagelBites

Use of Satorius balance.
Checked for electrostatic influence (none)
Configurations: closed box, thermal shield, magnetic shield, circulation block
Large buoyancy effect (air heating inside box and EMDrive)

Conical* /u/DrBagelBites

Determination fo thermal environment with head imaging.
Magnetron hottest along with smaller part of conicsl resonator.

Calibration: optimisation and Q factor determination.

Q factor of 48.8.
Predicted thrust 98.2 micronewtons

Went to electronics store and bought a microwave. /u/DrBagelBites

Testing in scale (like Shawyer) and vacuum torsion balance like NASA. /u/DrBagelBites

On to his experiment.  /u/DrBagelBites

Talking about critical assessment of NASA tests. Measured in one direction, vacuum test was a rumor. /u/DrBagelBites

This has been discussed many times in the forum. /u/DrBagelBites

Going over NASA experiment.  /u/DrBagelBites

He wants to focus on experiment.  /u/DrBagelBites

He said, "theory just doesn't work". /u/DrBagelBites

He doesn't like theory. Doesn't care. /u/DrBagelBites

Shows diagram of frustum with forces. Been on NSF a lot.

Not at all endorsing it.  /u/DrBagelBites

Talking about group velocity vs size of wave guid. /u/DrBagelBites

Talking about shawyers theory of how it might work. /u/DrBagelBites

Talking about peer review/ eagle works/ etc. /u/DrBagelBites

If true, forget everything else.  /u/DrBagelBites

Picture of Shawyer next to his drive. /u/DrBagelBites

Starts with "impossible drive" /u/DrBagelBites

As before breakthrough Propulsion physics program he created.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2015 09:33 PM by Star One »

Offline deltaMass

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 "theory just doesn't work".

Right On  8)

Offline Rodal

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It looks like the only person in this world other than Shawyer that likes Shawyer's theory is TheTraveller

We have McCulloch and now Tajmar strongly against Shawyer's theory
« Last Edit: 07/28/2015 09:08 PM by Rodal »

Offline deltaMass

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"Talking about critical assessment of NASA tests. Measured in one direction, vacuum test was a rumor. "

That's just flat wrong.  >:(

Offline CW

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No, tell him about connecting his phone to a laptop ;) .
Reality is weirder than fiction

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