Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1874485 times)

Offline deltaMass

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Its the missing link of GUT...giving away some working theories of mine, if thrust appears, I predict it will differ towards and away from a gravitational source. Interested? Hope so...its a hot potato subject you know.

I would have to agree, the gravitational dispersion would add or subtract with the direction of the cavity.
I am curious as to where you intend to get a "good supply" of gravity (or of its gradient or indeed of the curl of its potential  ;) ) when navigating in deep space?
« Last Edit: 07/16/2015 02:59 AM by deltaMass »

Offline LasJayhawk

The transmitter at Arecibo is 1 megawatt at 2.3 GHz CW.
It was built by Continential Electronics out of Texas, I'm sure if you have the money, they will make whatever you want.
Wikipedia says
Quote
The Arecibo Radio Telescope has three radar transmitters, with effective isotropic radiated powers of 20 TW at 2380 MHz, 2.5 TW (pulse peak) at 430 MHz, and 300 MW at 47 MHz.
Conflict?
Antenna gain is over 70dB giving an ERP in the 20 terra watt range. The S band transmitter itself is 1 MW give or take a few watts :) 2380 may be nominal frequency, I just remember it was around the frequency of a microwave oven magnatron.

Offline WarpTech

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...
There is an imbalance in the cosmos which classical physics has failed to resolve. Gravity and its antithesis; a counterbalance to the only known force without a repulsive state. While I surmise em radiation has a counterbalance for CoE and may not directly produce thrust, gravity has zero, zip, nada CoE. This leaves us an opening to explore. Definition of this force is still in the "duh" phase. While I think no new physics are needed to resolve it, it remains unresolved because an old master failed to grasp it. So try this one for size; gravity is weak and extends to a cosmic scale. For every instance of gravity, a weak cosmic force equal to it is created. Failure to accept this theory leads to the opposite of what the universe is doing right now. So DM, time to define this force...perhaps its the only real explanation for what people are reporting. c'mon dm, you can do it! ;)

I'll even get you started

g = GM/r2

Write its equivalent opposite equation. Forget that 5th force thing

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_force

(Crickets)

x = r2/GM

x is worth thinking about  8)

The "balance" or symmetry of gravity is that for any quantum harmonic oscillator in it's ground state, the power radiated by the oscillator TO the ZPF is equal to the power absorbed by the oscillator FROM the ZPF.

Gravity depends on gradient in the available power of the ZPF. Particles "contract" as they fall toward the CM and into a gravity well. They also "inflate" or expand when they move away from the CM. So gravity is a lack of available power in the ZPF, and its opposite would be an increase in available power of the ZPF. Like inflating a balloon with ZPF energy. This is "exotic matter", the opposite of gravity.
Todd
So we have someone willing to address this classical question. Well done warptech. Let's explore how we can invoke an imbalance between g and x. You may do this far quicker than my synapses fire. Here's why I say this, its what I expect to have left over after eliminating other possibilities. Its the missing link of GUT...giving away some working theories of mine, if thrust appears, I predict it will differ towards and away from a gravitational source. Interested? Hope so...its a hot potato subject you know.

That's what I've been saying! 8) The EM Drive mimics gravity over a narrow bandwidth of the EM spectrum, near the cut-off modes of the cavity. There is a gradient in both the energy and the power, and this makes the thrust. "UP" is toward the small end in this gradient. Resonant modes at the small end fall down to the big end, so the frustum moves up to compensate. As long as water keeps flowing over the falls, it keeps rising. I don't care if the water bounces at the bottom of the fall, as long as it "eventually" dissipates "down there".

So we want to inject power as a circular standing wave at the small end and make it as small as possible. Simple as that, gravity will do the rest. The question is, how much power is required? That's what I'm trying to figure out!
Todd

PS: That Trombone Bell is looking better and better! 8)
« Last Edit: 07/16/2015 03:05 AM by WarpTech »

Offline graybeardsyseng

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...
There is an imbalance in the cosmos which classical physics has failed to resolve. Gravity and its antithesis; a counterbalance to the only known force without a repulsive state. While I surmise em radiation has a counterbalance for CoE and may not directly produce thrust, gravity has zero, zip, nada CoE. This leaves us an opening to explore. Definition of this force is still in the "duh" phase. While I think no new physics are needed to resolve it, it remains unresolved because an old master failed to grasp it. So try this one for size; gravity is weak and extends to a cosmic scale. For every instance of gravity, a weak cosmic force equal to it is created. Failure to accept this theory leads to the opposite of what the universe is doing right now. So DM, time to define this force...perhaps its the only real explanation for what people are reporting. c'mon dm, you can do it! ;)

I'll even get you started

g = GM/r2

Write its equivalent opposite equation. Forget that 5th force thing

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_force

(Crickets)

x = r2/GM

x is worth thinking about  8)

The "balance" or symmetry of gravity is that for any quantum harmonic oscillator in it's ground state, the power radiated by the oscillator TO the ZPF is equal to the power absorbed by the oscillator FROM the ZPF.

Gravity depends on gradient in the available power of the ZPF. Particles "contract" as they fall toward the CM and into a gravity well. They also "inflate" or expand when they move away from the CM. So gravity is a lack of available power in the ZPF, and its opposite would be an increase in available power of the ZPF. Like inflating a balloon with ZPF energy. This is "exotic matter", the opposite of gravity.
Todd
So we have someone willing to address this classical question. Well done warptech. Let's explore how we can invoke an imbalance between g and x. You may do this far quicker than my synapses fire. Here's why I say this, its what I expect to have left over after eliminating other possibilities. Its the missing link of GUT...giving away some working theories of mine, if thrust appears, I predict it will differ towards and away from a gravitational source. Interested? Hope so...its a hot potato subject you know.

That's what I've been saying! 8) The EM Drive mimics gravity over a narrow bandwidth of the EM spectrum, near the cut-off modes of the cavity. There is a gradient in both the energy and the power, and this makes the thrust. "UP" is toward the small end in this gradient. Resonant modes at the small end fall down to the big end, so the frustum moves up to compensate. As long as water keeps flowing over the falls, it keeps rising. I don't care if the water bounces at the bottom of the fall, as long as it "eventually" dissipates "down there".

So we want to inject power as a circular standing wave at the small end and make it as small as possible. Simple as that, gravity will do the rest. The question is, how much power is required? That's what I'm trying to figure out!
Todd

PS: That Trombone Bell is looking better and better! 8)

Very interesting line of thought.   Since in this concept "The EM Drive mimics gravity over a narrow bandwidth of the EM spectrum, near the cut-off modes of the cavity" then it would be interesting to see how the overall effect varies with the cut-off mode and frequency of the cavity (i.e. 1.2 Ghz, 2.4 Ghz. 5.8 etc).   You mention "as small as possible" which would seem to imply as high a freq as possible but how does it vary (linear, exponential, ???).  Cost to generate clean RF goes up much faster than linear as frequency increases into the millimeter range so this will be a cost driver - hence the need to find the "sweet spot" for N/kg AND N/$.

   Its late and I may not be expressing this very well.

Herman
EMdrive - finally - microwaves are good for something other than heating ramen noodles and leftover pizza ;-)

Offline TheTraveller

Cost to generate clean RF goes up much faster than linear as frequency increases into the millimeter range so this will be a cost driver - hence the need to find the "sweet spot" for N/kg AND N/$.

   Its late and I may not be expressing this very well.

Herman

Estimated $/N, based on my build and research, is currently around $10k/N, inclusive commercial quality EMDrive, 1kW Rf amp and control electronics but ex power supply, shipping, install & commission costs.

This is probably the 1st time, that I know of, a $/N price has been quoted for a commercial quality EMDrive.

Thanks for making me think about it.
« Last Edit: 07/16/2015 04:41 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline aero

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... snip ...

Indeed - I'll do so.  Run just completed and it took quite a while serialized to one CPU, as you said.

And, having run the comparison, we're out of sync.  I used the apt-get install meep approach, and evidently that's in adequate.

I'll next turn my attention to reviewing the recompilation of everything (hmph) and will try to reproduce the reference csv with small error across all cells before moving on to trying to get an MPI version that also matches closely.

Thanks,
Ed

The sudo apt-get approach worked for me. One important thing was to remember to install MPI first, else meep can't link to it, and MPI doesn't automatically link to code that needs it. As I recall, I used sudo apt-get install mpi,
then sudo apt-get for all of the other stuff that goes with Meep. But there are other far more knowledgeable Linux people reading this thread, anybody ...?
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline SeeShells

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I have a question:

What is the most powerful microwave source that is available to private persons?  And what is the maximum intensity that, say, copper can withstand without melting, exploding or whatever?

Your difficulty isn't that the copper melts, instead you have arcing inside the waveguide and resonator.  The gas (or lack thereof) inside the waveguide or cavity determines when this happens.  Arcing happens more readily in vacuum than in air than in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_hexafluoride.  The latter, Sulfur Hexafluoride, is used in large Van de Graaf generators to prevent arcing.  The gas inside the resonator is a type of dielectric, so you'll have a change in the group velocity and other math to consider.

To your other question, what is the largest size microwave source can you buy:   Big.  They are not controlled devices.  If you accidentally melt a busload of people with one, that will likely change.

The largest microwave sources I found were Gyrotrons.  There is a company, "Gyrotron Technology Inc." that offers custom and semi-custom gyrotrons with remarkable microwave sources available.  I have not reached out to them for pricing or capability details.

Along gyrotrons, the most powerful manmade source of microwaves are klystrons. SLAC uses 150 megawatts (pulsed) S-band (3GHz) klystrons and 1.25 MW CW klystrons! But we don't wand to ignite the plasma of a tokamak or power a particle accelerator, and we're not quite yet feeding lift engines of a mothership.

Below, a 65 MW SLAC klystron:


Here is power! 9 tubes at 20MW each.
Shell
« Last Edit: 07/16/2015 06:22 AM by SeeShells »

Offline DaCunha

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I have a question:

What is the most powerful microwave source that is available to private persons?
And what is the maximum intensity that, say, copper can withstand without melting, exploding or whatever?

Could we just buy a 1 MW+ microwave source build a frustrum resonator and see what happens?

After seeking cover of course.

Let us find a bored millionaire.

This can't be too expensive. We don't have to optimize the system, which would become expensive at long term of course.

Just apply the maximum power to a frustrum and check what will happen.

Ask the Myth Busters. They like blowing things up. :D

Sea! You are ingenious!

That is the idea!

It could be the solution to our problem!:

NASA EW doesn't have the funds to check the behaviour of frustrum at 1 MW input and we are not allowed to fund their work.

BUT: Tax payer is not as interested in professional research as he is in entertainment!!That is why TV has millions and of dollars while NASA EW does not even have 100000 $.

Let us use this circumstance for our purpose!!

Mythbusters could demonstrate the Shawyer effect for 1 MW input power. (Of course without all the optimization that has to be done as a result of long and serious science) But a demonstration of an unoptimized system just fed with a lot of power to compensate for this unoptimized state is all we need to raise awareness of NASA and the rest of the community!


I have found out that you can actually send e-Mails with proposals for "Myths" to the producers!
Let us work together and send  E-Mails:  Send an email to mythfans@beyond.com.au with the title of your myth in the subject heading. This email goes directly to the team that makes the show.

You can read about it here: http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/about-this-show/mythbusters-submit-a-myth/


I already sent them an E-Mail but I think we need a lot more people to raise their awareness. I received an automatic answer, that they can not answer to individual mails but will "eventually" read it.






« Last Edit: 07/16/2015 08:02 AM by DaCunha »

Offline teitur

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However, after yesterdays misunderstanding, revelation and embarrassment. I am still trying to put all the pieces back together in a comprehendible way.

Embarrassment - are you kidding? You are one of the most courageous people I know, and one of few here. You are hurling decades of learning and practical experience at a difficult, ambiguous problem, in full view of the public and without a shroud of anonymity, despite knowing the possibility of being wrong and despite knowing that [at times impolite] reviewers are waiting for a misstep. You know going into it that you might err, and whenever you do you publicly take ownership of the mistake and detail how and why you were wrong. And then you go right back to working on it again!

Please - and you don't need to hear this from me, but - just keep going. If everyone who was capable simply did what you do routinely, our society might be much closer to cracking this right now.

So let me just take the opportunity to say thanks. And kids, if you're reading, know that this man Todd is a man of courage!

I just want to support this wholeheartedly !
Todd is not just a courageous man but a man with integrity. Despite all the impolite posts he answers politely, even thanks the posters for helping him find mistakes.
I have not the knowledge to judge if Todd is on the right track or not, but the way he behaves is a model for any scientist.
Current and future scientists - watch and learn !
Teitur

Offline TheTraveller

Here is power! 9 tubes at 20MW each.
Shell

Only need 2MWs of microwave energy, fed to 20 x 100N/100kW EMDrives. Total Force is then 2,000N. Apply that to a 90t crewed ship and it will accelerate at 0.0023g.

That ship can enter Pluto's orbit (40AU avg distance) in 12.4 months.

Can do Mars at avg distance 225mkm in 73 days or at close approach, 60mkm, in 38 days.

So no need for massive levels of Rf power. 2MWs of Rf (100kW of Rf per EMDrive) is more than enough to explore and colonise the whole solar system.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline TheTraveller

Here is power! 9 tubes at 20MW each.
Shell

Only need 2MWs of microwave energy, fed to 20 x 100N/100kW EMDrives. Total Force is then 2,000N. Apply that to a 90t crewed ship and it will accelerate at 0.0023g.

That ship can enter Pluto's orbit (40AU avg distance) in 12.4 months.

Can do Mars at avg distance 225mkm in 73 days or at close approach, 60mkm, in 38 days.

So no need for massive levels of Rf power. 2MWs of Rf (100kW of Rf per EMDrive) is more than enough to explore and colonise the whole solar system.

Nice data. But to really make this happen send a proposal to Mythbusters via mythfans@beyond.com.au.

Read about how to write the Mail: http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/about-this-show/mythbusters-submit-a-myth/

I plan on visiting SpaceX and Eagleworks with my roadshow 100mN/100W EMDrive total system. Might as well drop by MythBusters while I'm in the US. Maybe also do a few US talk shows, so millions can see an EMDrive madly spinning on it's cordless rotary test rig.

Should be fun as the physicists who claimed the EMDrive was impossible and have held this tech back for 15 years, scatter for cover.

Quote
Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Dylan Thomas

« Last Edit: 07/16/2015 10:17 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline Rodal

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Somebody who is really confident would be using their real name to make such extravagant predictions instead of an anonymous moniker:


visiting SpaceX and Eagleworks with my roadshow 100mN/100W EMDrive total system. Might as well drop by MythBusters while I'm in the US. Maybe also do a few US talk shows, so millions can see an EMDrive madly spinning on it's cordless rotary test rig.

Should be fun as the physicists who claimed the EMDrive was impossible and have held this tech back for 15 years, scatter for cover.
« Last Edit: 07/16/2015 12:22 PM by Rodal »

Offline Notsosureofit

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Very interesting line of thought.   Since in this concept "The EM Drive mimics gravity over a narrow bandwidth of the EM spectrum, near the cut-off modes of the cavity" then it would be interesting to see how the overall effect varies with the cut-off mode and frequency of the cavity (i.e. 1.2 Ghz, 2.4 Ghz. 5.8 etc).   You mention "as small as possible" which would seem to imply as high a freq as possible but how does it vary (linear, exponential, ???).  Cost to generate clean RF goes up much faster than linear as frequency increases into the millimeter range so this will be a cost driver - hence the need to find the "sweet spot" for N/kg AND N/$.

   Its late and I may not be expressing this very well.

Herman

Not exactly the same as Todd's but...

http://emdrive.wiki/@notsosureofit_Hypothesis

Offline leomillert

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aero, I have modified the 86th line from (set! high 10.2) to (set! high 5.1)
In other words, I have made the EMDrive half its original height, for sensitivity analysis.
All .h5 files are now sitting on my hard drive, totaling 6.1 GB.
Could you please post the exact h5totext commands I have to use to get the relevant csv files? I could even make a script out them to automate the process in the future for us and others dealing with MEEP.

Once I have all the h5totext commands, I could then zip all those csv files and upload for proper analysis by Rodal et al.

According to tidux:
Quote
Extracting only the necessary data to csv and compressing the csv file with 7zip or xz will provide up to an order of magnitude decrease in file size.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: 07/16/2015 11:38 AM by leomillert »

Offline rfmwguy

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Its the missing link of GUT...giving away some working theories of mine, if thrust appears, I predict it will differ towards and away from a gravitational source. Interested? Hope so...its a hot potato subject you know.

I would have to agree, the gravitational dispersion would add or subtract with the direction of the cavity.
I am curious as to where you intend to get a "good supply" of gravity (or of its gradient or indeed of the curl of its potential  ;) ) when navigating in deep space?
Here is where it may fall apart...perhaps the effect is only noticeable in an intense gravity field. Lots of testing needs to be completed...onwards and upwards.

Offline dumbo

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In parallel to @leomillert's work, I have now started a run using the (synchronized-magnetic ...) magic. I want to validate that the Poynting vector is increasing under this configuration before I contemplate doing longer runs.

Offline DaCunha

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Wow I tried to post a thread about a plan to let Mythbusters check the EMDrive but it was deleted. Does anyone know  why?

Offline SeeShells

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Very interesting line of thought.   Since in this concept "The EM Drive mimics gravity over a narrow bandwidth of the EM spectrum, near the cut-off modes of the cavity" then it would be interesting to see how the overall effect varies with the cut-off mode and frequency of the cavity (i.e. 1.2 Ghz, 2.4 Ghz. 5.8 etc).   You mention "as small as possible" which would seem to imply as high a freq as possible but how does it vary (linear, exponential, ???).  Cost to generate clean RF goes up much faster than linear as frequency increases into the millimeter range so this will be a cost driver - hence the need to find the "sweet spot" for N/kg AND N/$.

   Its late and I may not be expressing this very well.

Herman

Not exactly the same as Todd's but...

http://emdrive.wiki/@notsosureofit_Hypothesis
If someone had a more than a gut feeling combining all these different ideas they would make their cavity with a sidewall with a very low angle from the centerline and be able to extend the small cavity endcap down the length of the cavity?

I think it was a good idea over a month ago and a even better one today. My very first drawing of what I felt I needed to make and test.

Shell

 
 
 

Offline SeeShells

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Here is power! 9 tubes at 20MW each.
Shell

Only need 2MWs of microwave energy, fed to 20 x 100N/100kW EMDrives. Total Force is then 2,000N. Apply that to a 90t crewed ship and it will accelerate at 0.0023g.

That ship can enter Pluto's orbit (40AU avg distance) in 12.4 months.

Can do Mars at avg distance 225mkm in 73 days or at close approach, 60mkm, in 38 days.

So no need for massive levels of Rf power. 2MWs of Rf (100kW of Rf per EMDrive) is more than enough to explore and colonise the whole solar system.

We need to get it out of the dirt first.

Shell

Offline TheTraveller

Here is power! 9 tubes at 20MW each.
Shell

Only need 2MWs of microwave energy, fed to 20 x 100N/100kW EMDrives. Total Force is then 2,000N. Apply that to a 90t crewed ship and it will accelerate at 0.0023g.

That ship can enter Pluto's orbit (40AU avg distance) in 12.4 months.

Can do Mars at avg distance 225mkm in 73 days or at close approach, 60mkm, in 38 days.

So no need for massive levels of Rf power. 2MWs of Rf (100kW of Rf per EMDrive) is more than enough to explore and colonise the whole solar system.

We need to get it out of the dirt first.

Shell

That is the plan and why I'll be building a commercial quality EMDrive full system from the start.

Is always important to understand where your project & product are going and what are the end goals, before you finalise the design and start the build. What I call integrated product development.
« Last Edit: 07/16/2015 12:45 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

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