Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1802565 times)

Offline WarpTech

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Don't have the software to do the integration on the images but I did the large end.

I hope you have good solder joints people! The maximum stress seems to ride the seem of the large end. Hence, the use of bolts, not solder to hold it together. Hmmm...

It makes sense though, that when the mode energy reaches the big end, it has already expanded. So after that, most of the reflections must be concentrated around the perimeter of the big end. That's why I want to see a simulation of it turned off. I want to see how far back up the frustum the wave goes after it is reflected from the big end, and for how long.
Todd
So what levels of force do you expect to be able to break a silver solder joint?

No clue, but... They don't use dozens of small bolts to hold microwave equipment together for nothing. To get a measurable asymmetry between two opposing forces, I assume they are going to need to be quite large forces. But hey, I'm the electronics guy, you need to talk to the structural engineering dept.
Todd

Offline SeeShells

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Interesting.

Just found a 1kW 2.4-2.5GHz Rf amp. Don't think I'll need it for my tests but nice to know it is available.

With that Rf amp could maybe generate 1N of Force.
I'm interested TT in something. You said you were going to evacuate your cavity and refill it with something, was it Nitrogen? I don't remember and the search here is lacking.

shell

Offline SeeShells

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Don't have the software to do the integration on the images but I did the large end.

I hope you have good solder joints people! The maximum stress seems to ride the seem of the large end. Hence, the use of bolts, not solder to hold it together. Hmmm...

It makes sense though, that when the mode energy reaches the big end, it has already expanded. So after that, most of the reflections must be concentrated around the perimeter of the big end. That's why I want to see a simulation of it turned off. I want to see how far back up the frustum the wave goes after it is reflected from the big end, and for how long.
Todd
So what levels of force do you expect to be able to break a silver solder joint?

No clue, but... They don't use dozens of small bolts to hold microwave equipment together for nothing. To get a measurable asymmetry between two opposing forces, I assume they are going to need to be quite large forces. But hey, I'm the electronics guy, you need to talk to the structural engineering dept.
Todd

A 100 newtons is just over 10Kg of force or 22.48 Foot pounds, not a great deal.

Sealed cavity? hmmm I think something else is going on. Air pressure from the heating can cause more than that per sq in deforming the cavity, killing off the Q.

Offline TheTraveller

Interesting.

Just found a 1kW 2.4-2.5GHz Rf amp. Don't think I'll need it for my tests but nice to know it is available.

With that Rf amp could maybe generate 1N of Force.
I'm interested TT in something. You said you were going to evacuate your cavity and refill it with something, was it Nitrogen? I don't remember and the search here is lacking.

shell

Plan to pump the sealed cavity down as far as my lab pump will go, then back fill with N2 to 2 x atmo. Then repeat the process a few times and finally run at 50% atmo with mostly N2 inside. Done to eliminate as many water molecules as possible.

Just realised I didn't show the side wall mounted air valve nor the pressure gauge on the CMS drawing. Plan is to monitor and log the internal cavity N2 pressure along with all the other monitored data.

Just found the Raspberry Pi 2B had an inbuilt 3 axis accelerometer. Sweet. Need to check this out further.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 04:47 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline SeeShells

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Interesting.

Just found a 1kW 2.4-2.5GHz Rf amp. Don't think I'll need it for my tests but nice to know it is available.

With that Rf amp could maybe generate 1N of Force.
I'm interested TT in something. You said you were going to evacuate your cavity and refill it with something, was it Nitrogen? I don't remember and the search here is lacking.

shell

Plan to pump the sealed cavity down as far as my lab pump will go, then back fill with N2 to 2 x atmo. Then repeat the process a few times and finally run at 50% atmo with mostly N2 inside. Done to eliminate as many water molecules as possible.

Just realised I didn't show the side wall mounted air valve nor the pressure gauge on the CMS drawing. Plan is to monitor and log the internal cavity N2 pressure along with all the other monitored data.

Just found the Raspberry Pi 2B had an inbuilt 3 axis accelerometer. Sweet. Need to check this out further.
Why N2? O2 is very obvious :D (love myth busters) because its a Chiral gas you expect any changes?

edit readability
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 04:54 AM by SeeShells »

Offline TheTraveller

No clue, but... They don't use dozens of small bolts to hold microwave equipment together for nothing. To get a measurable asymmetry between two opposing forces, I assume they are going to need to be quite large forces. But hey, I'm the electronics guy, you need to talk to the structural engineering dept.
Todd

Engineers like bolts, the more bolts the better.

Engineer pissing up the wall contest. My design has more bolts than yours. Accountant come along and says get rid of most of the bolts. Spoil sport accountants.

Waveguide couplings normally don't have a lot of bolts, 4 as attached. However if working in vac or using seals or a big joint, yes the number of bolts does increase.

« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 05:03 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
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Offline tleach

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Extend the small end to nearly a cylinder, like a Trombone. I can't say it is "optimal", because I haven't optimized any equations yet. But given the equations I have, that's what I am thinking.

The more I think about it, the more I think that you should calculate the resonant frequency of an ACTUAL trombone bell.  It looks like it's close to the right shape...  Sound, radiation, gravity, they're all inverse squares, right?

http://www.edwards-instruments.com/trombone/tenor/bells.php

I don't know anything about trombones, but this company sells bells.  Maybe you could calculate for a .547" bore (am I reading that right?) to an 8 1/2" bell?  If it works, it would make replications ridiculously easy.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 05:02 AM by tleach »
T. Thor Leach

Offline TheTraveller

Interesting.

Just found a 1kW 2.4-2.5GHz Rf amp. Don't think I'll need it for my tests but nice to know it is available.

With that Rf amp could maybe generate 1N of Force.
I'm interested TT in something. You said you were going to evacuate your cavity and refill it with something, was it Nitrogen? I don't remember and the search here is lacking.

shell

Plan to pump the sealed cavity down as far as my lab pump will go, then back fill with N2 to 2 x atmo. Then repeat the process a few times and finally run at 50% atmo with mostly N2 inside. Done to eliminate as many water molecules as possible.

Just realised I didn't show the side wall mounted air valve nor the pressure gauge on the CMS drawing. Plan is to monitor and log the internal cavity N2 pressure along with all the other monitored data.

Just found the Raspberry Pi 2B had an inbuilt 3 axis accelerometer. Sweet. Need to check this out further.
Why N2? O2 is very obvious :D (love myth busters) because its a Chiral gas you expect any changes?

edit readability

N2 will not oxidise the EMDrive's very shiny, highly polished, scratch and ding free copper interior.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 05:05 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline SeeShells

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Interesting.

Just found a 1kW 2.4-2.5GHz Rf amp. Don't think I'll need it for my tests but nice to know it is available.

With that Rf amp could maybe generate 1N of Force.
I'm interested TT in something. You said you were going to evacuate your cavity and refill it with something, was it Nitrogen? I don't remember and the search here is lacking.

shell

Plan to pump the sealed cavity down as far as my lab pump will go, then back fill with N2 to 2 x atmo. Then repeat the process a few times and finally run at 50% atmo with mostly N2 inside. Done to eliminate as many water molecules as possible.

Just realised I didn't show the side wall mounted air valve nor the pressure gauge on the CMS drawing. Plan is to monitor and log the internal cavity N2 pressure along with all the other monitored data.

Just found the Raspberry Pi 2B had an inbuilt 3 axis accelerometer. Sweet. Need to check this out further.
That is sweet, waiting for mine to arrive. was ordered today.

Offline deltaMass

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@Warptech.
I read your reply to @wallofwolfstreet, so am taking that into account here.

1. GR has been worried over by minds far smarter than ours continually since 1915. It is a statement of extraordinary hubris to say in the Abstract that you feel this paper of yours might "result in a deeper understanding of GR". It says more about you than your paper, needless to mention.

2. Re. eqn 8, the very first original equation in the paper makes no sense to me. Using the shorthand
E0 = m0 c2 = const., Ein = Pin t, g = gamma, it transforms to
g2 = 1 + ( Ein  / (E0 - Ein) )2

@t=0, Ein=0, and so g2 = 1, so that makes sense.
Also,  gamma = infinity when Ein = E0.
In other words, v=c when the battery has used up all the rest energy, including the rest mass of the cavity and that of the battery. That's not unreasonable, because then there's a limiting velocity < c.
When I get to eqn 9, I suspect I'll see that you calculate the value of this limiting velocity.

But what happened to the relativistic kinetic energy term (g-1)*E0?
It is buried in there somewhere. What you should have, relativistically, is
Eout = (g-1)*E0
But you don't.

3. Eqn 9 is OK, given eqn 8.

4. Eqn 10 makes no sense to me. You throw in force F and it immediately disappears in equivalent symbols, which you have nowhere before defined. The only reference to F before this is in your illustration of my proof of over-unity, which you write out for illustrative purposes only, and will presumably intend to refute later. But here you are using F in eqn 10 as if we knew what it was algebraically. We don't; we only know what it is supposed not to be!
So I cannot follow your derivation for eqn 10.

I'll stop writing for now and read on.

« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 06:23 AM by deltaMass »

Offline deltaMass

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@Warptech.

1. CONCLUSIONS
There is no difference in the thrust-to-force ratios, when mass is accelerated by a conventional means or by
radiation pressure from a photon rocket, the solar wind or a “space-drive” with an internal potential energy
gradient. The equation for the thrust-to-power ratio is the same and it is not constant at any speed, as
illustrated in the derivation of equation (10).

This is wrong. It is a well-understood identity that k = 1/c for a photon rocket. Last I checked, c was a local invariant.

2. I think that gravity plays no role here. We can take our drive out to an almost-field-free region of spacetime, and we can assume that the spacetime is asymptotically flat (the CMB seems to think so too). Lo and behold, we get over-unity. Therefore I look upon all references to gravity as pure obfuscation.

3. The same goes for using the gamma factor. The Newtonian calculation of the power over-unity velocity vP=1/k can happily refer to the severely sub-relativistic regime. For instance, there is talk here of a k-value of about 0.001 N/W. That corresponds to 1000 m/s. There is absolutely no need to use SR calculations in this velocity regime. To do so is pure obfuscation.

4. At the end of the day, you are back to stating that spacetime is a road and EmDrive the tyre which rides along it. That's because you're back to stating that F = Pin/v.  Or, as @wallofwolfstreet likes to describe it, you claim to be able to construct an absolute velocity measuring device. As we've both said, you can't do that.    Einstein's ghost will bite you in the neck as you sleep if you suggest it again. And again, I have to mention the delicious irony of you breaking a fundamental tenet of relativity, when you're the only one trying to use SR to wriggle out of the clearly predicted fact of over-unity.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 06:40 AM by deltaMass »

Offline deltaMass

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@Warptech
A couple more notes:

1. You say that you will address the incorrect assumption that the input energy term Pin*t is much smaller than the rest energy term m0*c2. Problem is that you never mention it again!!
Furthermore, you apparently ignore the post I made showing that for eminently reasonable physical values, the input energy term is about 14 orders down on the rest energy term!! Why have you conveniently blocked this out? You are quite capable of calculating it yourself.  Are you therefore prepared to admit that the input energy term can be neglected in comparison with the rest energy term?
That being the case, all your equations collapse into tautology.

2. That peculiar little model about potential energy difference plays absolutely no role in your derivation. You write it down once and that's all. Like referring to gravity, and like using the gamma factor, this is yet another red herring that serves only to obfuscate.

I'm afraid your paper doesn't achieve what it intended. It serves only to demonstrate that you are engaging in woolly thinking, have no handle on orders of magnitude, cannot resist the temptation to use SR and GR when wholly inappropriate, and believe that something called "absolute velocity" exists and can be sensed by the (purported) thrust-producing mechanism - this last utterly in contradiction with relativity itself.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 10:18 AM by deltaMass »

Offline TheTraveller

Seems the Chinese, Shawyer and Cullen all agree that momentum, in a waveguide, travels at the Group Velocity of the Guide Wavelength of the EM wave.

Those that believe momentum, in a waveguide, travels at superluminal (greater than c) Phase Velocity may need to review their belief.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 10:20 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline deltaMass

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Thrust goes as 2*P/c, not 2*P/vg

Thus attempts to explain net thrust as due to a difference in group velocity at either end are doomed to fail.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 10:24 AM by deltaMass »

Offline TheTraveller

Thrust goes as 2*P/c, not 2*P/vg

Inside a waveguide everything (information, energy & momentum) moves at Group Velocity and not c or Phase Velocity.

You need to accept Group Velocity and Guide Wavelength, inside a waveguide are real and are controlled by the Cutoff Wavelength, which is controlled by waveguide diameter, excitation mode and external frequency.

Please study Cullen 15 to see your earlier statement is incorrect.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 10:33 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline flux_capacitor

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Interesting.

Just found a 1kW 2.4-2.5GHz Rf amp. Don't think I'll need it for my tests but nice to know it is available.

With that Rf amp could maybe generate 1N of Force.

Wow. Do you have a web link for that beast?

Offline leomillert

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I have just installed MEEP and NSF-1701.ctl is sitting here on my hard drive.
How can I help?

Good! Run it and see how the data compares to posted data. In particular, generate some csv files, then "diff" them with the "identical" data on Google drive. If you haven't changed any settings, the data should be there. If you change anything at all, chances are your data will be different. If that is the case post a copy of your file to me and I'll run it as is then post a some csv files back to you.

I think that is probably the most straight forward way to check installations. Of course your computer word length may be different so that might not work either.

aero

I ran "meep NSF-1701.ctl" and got the following files:

      Name                        Size                                          MD5
--------------------------    ------------     ---------------------------------------------------------
eps-000000000.h5    127.3M         7028e98b42305c0fc5bd285c70766e17
ex.h5                             1.7G              f515221aee0ff2b82a32c69ee4c4a54b
ey.h5                             1.7G              069ec826d6803e2e67f0619617c641b7
ez-000000003.h5      127.3M         4865721e49192853eb998efe0fa76b0f
ez-000000021.h5      127.3M         8675ee3158b64285aa1fb4e36833217b
ez.h5                             1.7G             920f598802f7eee417465c0f2703872c
hx.h5                             1.7G             c4c14a37208eed92f8dff0c1aef7762c
hy.h5                             1.7G             01ff935ad90d58e0d31f93c84244ee95
hz.h5                             1.7G             f9ee7c2e08c895bd57ac7b7cbc200913


Should I use h5totxt to convert each file, individually?
What is the expected output? The Google Drive has a lot of .csv files, I'm not sure which ones I'm supposed to independently replicate and compare to.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 01:10 PM by leomillert »


Offline deltaMass

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Well done USA! Pluto is now in the rearview mirror (we hope).

I was thinking...its orbital period is about 248 years. Where were we the last time it passed by this neck of the woods?
The year was 1767. We didn't understand electromagnetism. We didn't understand quantum mechanics. We didn't understand relativity. We didn't understand rockets. We didn't understand rocket fuels. Our telescopes were primitive, but had been around for a century or so. We didn't even know Pluto was there. In 1687, 80 years prior, Newton had published his Principia Mathematica containing his Laws of Motion, so at least we did have the navigational expertise.

It's a sobering thought that almost all of the expertise we needed to get to Pluto today was gathered within the last 100 years or so.  A scant two generations.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 12:13 PM by deltaMass »

Offline Rodal

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Don't have the software to do the integration on the images but I did the large end.

I hope you have good solder joints people! The maximum stress seems to ride the seem of the large end. Hence, the use of bolts, not solder to hold it together. Hmmm...

It makes sense though, that when the mode energy reaches the big end, it has already expanded. So after that, most of the reflections must be concentrated around the perimeter of the big end. That's why I want to see a simulation of it turned off. I want to see how far back up the frustum the wave goes after it is reflected from the big end, and for how long.
Todd

It is a location NEAR the big end, but NOT at the big end.  I still have to plot the stresses at the big and at the small ends

In order to do that, don't you need csv files at the big and small ends? If so, tell me where they are. That is, what rows of the xz or xy csv files that you have correspond to the big and small ends? Then I can cut x slices at those rows and make the right csv files.

I thought you had determined that these csv files were one of the circular cross-sections bases

\\ts03\\s3-exx.csv
\\ts03\\s3-exx.csv
\\ts03\\s3-eyx.csv
\\ts03\\s3-ezx.csv
\\ts03\\s3-hxx.csv
\\ts03\\s3-hyx.csv
\\ts03\\s3-hzx.csv

etc. up to ts13

dated 07/03/2015 in the folder "time slices 3-13"

Please let me know whether these cross-sections are of one of the bases (if so what base) or if this cross section is not located at a base at what column is this cross-section located (the files are not labeled as to such location, all they state is exx.csv)

Reminder:  remember that your original csv file had a cross-section that contained noise, and you traced it back to the fact that the cross-section was outside the EM Drive in nowhere land.  Then you determined where the metal base was located.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 12:39 PM by Rodal »

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