Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1805271 times)

Offline Rodal

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We finish by showing the stress tensor component sigma xx at the circular cross-sectional yz plane at  x=208, located on the interior, near the antenna, near the small end of the frustum
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 02:35 AM by Rodal »

Offline wallofwolfstreet

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....
Why are all of these new plots looking more and more like those for the Alcubierre metric?

Rip
Because man/woman is a being who rose among all others on Earth by his/her ability to see patterns.  So we see patterns everywhere (the face on Mars, canals on Mars, trees on Mars, etc.) even when those patterns are just a mirage.

Cute. Now answer the question. Is there any possible correlation? You folks are chasing what appears to be impossible physics, why get snooty when someone sees an apparent correlation to other apparently impossible physics? I've already posted an observation that the devices described so far seem to be Q switched resonators, with no coherent (pardon the pun) response.

Rip

Not the person you asked but I'll take a swing.

No.  There is no correlation.  Two totally different things.  It doesn't even look like the alcubierre metric in actuality.  The real metric is defined in 3D; the 2D visualisation of the Alcubierre metric commonly shown is were any similarities lie.  That general shape, where there is a valley on one side and a hill on the other isn't particularly rare or anything.  Pure coincidence.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 02:36 AM by wallofwolfstreet »

Online WarpTech

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Resolution of the Space-Drive Energy Paradox  (version 6)

Have at it @deltaMass and @wallofwolfstreet. I'm looking forward to your responses.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p86dvc8733h9iph/Desiato-Energy_Paradox-v6.pdf?dl=0

Todd

<<crickets>>


LOL you crack me up.  I don't know how many times people have corrected your math now, only for you to throw a new version back at them as though nothing even happened, not even the slightest acknowledgement of error or miscalculation.  I take a day to respond to a post and you're gloating already.  I do have a day job to attend, commenting on NSF doesn't pay bills (to my knowledge). 

Just having fun sir! :) The math in the original paper was "so wrong" I started over from scratch, with minor edits to the abstract and conclusion. I believe it is correct. We shall see...

Quote

Rather than addressing each issue one by one in posts back and forth, I'll just lay them all out here:

1)  In equation ( 8 ), Eout is equal to the invariant rest mass-energy of the vehicle and battery minus Pin* time*gamma?  How do you figure that?  No KE dependence?  As time goes on, Eout will monotonically decrease?  If we let the drive run forever, using an external power source, to what value does Eout go?  To negative infinity?  Sorry, but this expression for Eout doesn't make sense.     

Do you believe that Special Relativity is an accurate and correct theory, or are you one of "those" people who thinks it is wrong?

This is the relativistic energy equation for a rocket, or any vehicle where mass-energy is being expended to produce propulsion. I specified that there was a battery on board that supplies the input power. Therefore, just as with propellant, energy "at rest" is converted into thrust and must be subtracted from the rest mass term, and added into the kinetic energy term. The "remaining" rest mass at time t is less than it was a t=0, fuel/energy was spent. Therefore, Eout is the total energy at any time, t > or = 0  because, I specified that 100% of the energy stored in the battery is converted into thrust.

Equation (7) defined this, starting at time t=0, and equation (9) starts at v=0. The limiting velocity is when the battery runs out. I did not calculate "when" that would be, because I did not specify how much energy was in the battery.

You may connect an external power source. Simply change the sign of Pin*t from negative, to positive. Very simple. But now you have an unlimited external supply of energy to start with. You don't need an over-unity machine. :)

Quote
2)  Equation (9), the function for v, is for the "maximum velocity ... limited by the amount of energy stored in the battery", correct? If so, you've lost track of your own variable names.  You then say "Thrust is dependent on the instantaneous velocity at time t", without ever showing it.  equation (10) shows k=1/v, which isn't the instantaneous velocity at all, but the limiting velocity you just derived one equation up.   

It is true that the maximum speed is limited by what is stored in the battery. However, the v in equation (9) is a function of time, t. As is evidenced by the right hand side of the equation. I should explicitly show this as v(t) and k(t) to be clear. It's sloppy, thank you. I will fix it and reword it.

Quote
3)  Two issues with equation (11).  No idea how you move from the second last line to the last line (=Pin).  As before, you misapply equation (9).  If equation (9)  is the maximum velocity, how is it you are able to sub it in to v(t)?   

It is not the maximum, it is v(t). As I said, 100% of the energy stored in the battery will be converted into thrust, meaning I have a 100% conversion efficiency, from the energy input to the energy output. Therefore, Pin = Pout. I then use this FACT to solve for the instantaneous Force and acceleration at time t. As most engineers would do.

Quote
4)  Most obvious issue, k has a v dependence.  I can't copy all the relevant text, but you seem to think this is a-okay:  "I believe the argument originates in the way Lorentz Transforms and the symmetry of two inertial
reference frames is taught. In addition to, a failure to correctly learn and understand the effects of an
accelerated reference frame, or its equivalence to a gravitational field." - Maybe the failure to understand is on your part?  Like it or not, you are now claiming the emdrive is a velocimeter, because k can easily be measured with an accelerometer and a multi-meter.  My professors told me such a velocimeter, independently measuring absolute velocity in a closed system, was impossible.  Maybe you know more than them, and they are the ones with the misunderstanding.   

You will need an accelerometer AND two clocks, (one left behind) not a velocimeter, to determine the state of the vehicle. What I am claiming, and "correctly" showing is that it obeys Special and General Relativity.

Tell me, do you remember the resolution of the Twin Paradox? Because it is the same paradox, just offered under a different scenario. If you do not remember how to solve it. Please go back and review it as I have done. It may jog your memory.

Quote
5)  As I mentioned in this post, you are oversimplifying the "Energy paradox" to instances with acceleration and onboard power supplies.  A free energy machine needs neither, and so even if you dismiss all of the above, paradox still stands firm.

Conclusions?  Swing and a miss.  Can't imagine why you've gotten so hung up on this thing.     

I'm just having fun. Like I said, if you have an external (eternal) power supply to power it, what do you need an over-unity machine for? You must prove over-unity using a finite supply of energy, not an external source. The external source will simply add more and more mass. It will never have a constant thrust-to-power ratio, and it will never exceed unity, and we are a long way from 100% efficiency. :(
Todd

Offline SeeShells

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Don't have the software to do the integration on the images but I did the large end.
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 04:05 AM by SeeShells »

Offline SeeShells

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Offline TheTraveller

Give me one microNewton of genuine propellantless thrust and I will give you the stars.

I'll give you a lot more than that.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline TheTraveller

On the other hand testers from prestigious institutions : first NASA and now Prof. Tajmar at TU Dresden University, Germany, tested in vacuum and obtained thrust that is orders of magnitude smaller than those reported by Shawyer and Yang.

Let's not forget NASA used the "wrong" frequencies and had failing equipment in the vacuum tests.

Eagleworks needs to kick their dielectric habit if they really want to measure good mN Force levels.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Online WarpTech

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Resolution of the Space-Drive Energy Paradox  (version 6)

Have at it @deltaMass and @wallofwolfstreet. I'm looking forward to your responses.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p86dvc8733h9iph/Desiato-Energy_Paradox-v6.pdf?dl=0

Todd

" crickets "

I have been glued to the forum all day eagerly awaiting rebuttals and discussion. A bit disappointed that there seems to be none so far. Though I am wondering if it is hard to formulate a rebuttal when part of your argument @WarpTech is in a yet to be completed paper.

The type of propulsion system only changes the efficiency of converting the battery energy or propellant into thrust, it doesn't change the equations.

However, point taken about my future paper. But.. any prediction of constant thrust to power ratio, is simply wrong. Which is why I've been reluctant to push any formula to derive thrust, until the paper is written.  I will probably add this as an appendix in the main paper, when I send it to JBIS. :)

As it is now, it's not ready for publication, but it is ready for discussion. I'm happy to hash out the errors in a public forum, as long as the end result is that I learn the right way to do it.
Todd

Offline SeeShells

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small end antenna

Offline TheTraveller


>The problem is EW does not have 20k $ to spend "win or lose". And, what makes it very painful if you ask me, we the people are not allowed to crowdfund their work.

Quote from Paul March: "As to crowd sourcing, as I and several others have tried to explain on the NASASpaceFlight.com EM-Drive forum in the past, NASA projects can't take outside funding from non-government entities except via a space act agreement through NASA Headquarters in Washington DC, so crowd sourcing is not possible. However thanks for the thought."

However, I see a small chance. Tomorrow New Horizons will pass Pluto at closest distance. And this event could remind everyone that this will be the last planetoid extraterrestrial unknown object that we will discover.

It will remind them, that without new propulsion technology this will be the end of human space exploration.

What if we start a white house petition to show the government the people's interest in investigating the EMDrive concept?

If all who visited this thread would sign it.. I think this would increase the chances for a space act drastically.

Just one comment about crowdfunding not being possible for NASA.. that restraint is, and please forgive my unfiltered rage, pure unadulterated horse shite. If tax payers money isn't crowdfunding on the largest possible scale already, I don't know what is. Maybe they don't like the thought that tax payers might do productive things without consent from 'authorities'. Hey mom! Can I have my EM drive allowance, please? No? Why!? But I was a good boy! Aww... . OK, mom. Yes, wars are important. Maybe next week?
*CoM violating facepalm deluxe*.

I have allocated $20k of my money to make my 1st EMDrive build, CMS build, rotary test rig build, live video streaming of the tests and 7 x Force verifiers program work.

Why?

Because it is time to draw a line in the sand.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline SeeShells

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Glad that you got your Internet back!
It makes "the force" come alive doesn't it?

What is it about the human mind that we are transfixed by these movies.  I keep staring at the movie.  :)
I hope I got it back. I love being able to see what can't be seen. I just don't want to be going to sleep tonight dreaming of these gifs lol.

Shell

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Don't have the software to do the integration on the images but I did the large end.

I hope you have good solder joints people! The maximum stress seems to ride the seem of the large end. Hence, the use of bolts, not solder to hold it together. Hmmm...

It makes sense though, that when the mode energy reaches the big end, it has already expanded. So after that, most of the reflections must be concentrated around the perimeter of the big end. That's why I want to see a simulation of it turned off. I want to see how far back up the frustum the wave goes after it is reflected from the big end, and for how long.
Todd

Offline SeeShells

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>The problem is EW does not have 20k $ to spend "win or lose". And, what makes it very painful if you ask me, we the people are not allowed to crowdfund their work.

Quote from Paul March: "As to crowd sourcing, as I and several others have tried to explain on the NASASpaceFlight.com EM-Drive forum in the past, NASA projects can't take outside funding from non-government entities except via a space act agreement through NASA Headquarters in Washington DC, so crowd sourcing is not possible. However thanks for the thought."

However, I see a small chance. Tomorrow New Horizons will pass Pluto at closest distance. And this event could remind everyone that this will be the last planetoid extraterrestrial unknown object that we will discover.

It will remind them, that without new propulsion technology this will be the end of human space exploration.

What if we start a white house petition to show the government the people's interest in investigating the EMDrive concept?

If all who visited this thread would sign it.. I think this would increase the chances for a space act drastically.

Just one comment about crowdfunding not being possible for NASA.. that restraint is, and please forgive my unfiltered rage, pure unadulterated horse shite. If tax payers money isn't crowdfunding on the largest possible scale already, I don't know what is. Maybe they don't like the thought that tax payers might do productive things without consent from 'authorities'. Hey mom! Can I have my EM drive allowance, please? No? Why!? But I was a good boy! Aww... . OK, mom. Yes, wars are important. Maybe next week?
*CoM violating facepalm deluxe*.

I have allocated $20k of my money to make my 1st EMDrive build, CMS build, rotary test rig build, live video streaming of the tests and 7 x Force verifiers program work.

Why?

Because it is time to draw a line in the sand.

Hmmm. I thought you were going to say "Because you choose to dream".

Shell

Offline Rodal

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Don't have the software to do the integration on the images but I did the large end.

I hope you have good solder joints people! The maximum stress seems to ride the seem of the large end. Hence, the use of bolts, not solder to hold it together. Hmmm...

It makes sense though, that when the mode energy reaches the big end, it has already expanded. So after that, most of the reflections must be concentrated around the perimeter of the big end. That's why I want to see a simulation of it turned off. I want to see how far back up the frustum the wave goes after it is reflected from the big end, and for how long.
Todd

It is a location NEAR the big end, but NOT at the big end.  I still have to plot the stresses at the big and at the small ends

Offline TheTraveller



...

There will be a significant Faraday Shield around the EMDrive. If the BlueTooth can't connect, will increase it to a double Faraday Shield with optional additional full mu-metal shield to block out low H field leakage as well. Remember min wall thickness is 2mm and I can reduce Rf amp power down to 79mWs. Don't expect any issues but if they occur I know how to deal with them.

The BlueTooth link, when doing cordless rotates, will be operational.


...

It will be interesting to see how well the Bluetooth works.   Bluetooth uses the same ISM band (2.4 - 2.5 GHz).  No amount of shielding is 100% effective.

I agree.

However I can make the BlueTooth distance very small and can adjust Rf amp power output from 79mW to 100W. This is not a magnetron. I have total control over power and frequency.

Worst case is the CMS can't do BlueTooth comms while rotating but can do data logging and dump that data once the Rf amp is disabled.

There is always a way.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline aero

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Don't have the software to do the integration on the images but I did the large end.

I hope you have good solder joints people! The maximum stress seems to ride the seem of the large end. Hence, the use of bolts, not solder to hold it together. Hmmm...

It makes sense though, that when the mode energy reaches the big end, it has already expanded. So after that, most of the reflections must be concentrated around the perimeter of the big end. That's why I want to see a simulation of it turned off. I want to see how far back up the frustum the wave goes after it is reflected from the big end, and for how long.
Todd

It is a location NEAR the big end, but NOT at the big end.  I still have to plot the stresses at the big and at the small ends

In order to do that, don't you need csv files at the big and small ends? If so, tell me where they are. That is, what rows of the xz or xy csv files that you have correspond to the big and small ends? Then I can cut x slices at those rows and make the right csv files.
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline SeeShells

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Don't have the software to do the integration on the images but I did the large end.

I hope you have good solder joints people! The maximum stress seems to ride the seem of the large end. Hence, the use of bolts, not solder to hold it together. Hmmm...

It makes sense though, that when the mode energy reaches the big end, it has already expanded. So after that, most of the reflections must be concentrated around the perimeter of the big end. That's why I want to see a simulation of it turned off. I want to see how far back up the frustum the wave goes after it is reflected from the big end, and for how long.
Todd
So what levels of force do you expect to be able to break a silver solder joint?


Offline TheTraveller

Interesting.

Just found a 1kW 2.4-2.5GHz Rf amp. Don't think I'll need it for my tests but nice to know it is available.

With that Rf amp could maybe generate 1N of Force.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Online WarpTech

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This is a previous image posted by Star-Drive from NASA research:

What is the "e/p plasma mirror" ?


I have no idea, but I had a similar idea, where it would generate e/p pairs and use them as thrust in a MHD like device. Then someone pointed out to me how to calculate the temperature of an e/p pair annihilation and I saw the biggest issue with the idea.

2mc^2 / Boltzmann's constant = 11,800,000,000.0 Kelvin, (edit) ADD 273 for Centigrade. ;) Anybody see an issue with that?
Todd
« Last Edit: 07/14/2015 04:25 AM by WarpTech »

Offline SeeShells

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This is a previous image posted by Star-Drive from NASA research:

What is the "e/p plasma mirror" ?


I have no idea, but I had a similar idea, where it would generate e/p pairs and use them as thrust in a MHD like device. Then someone pointed out to me how to calculate the temperature of an e/p pair annihilation and I saw the biggest issue with the idea.

2mc^2 / Boltzmann's constant = 11,800,000,000.0 Kelvin, subtract 273 for Centigrade. ;) Anybody see an issue with that?
Todd
Add a Anti-Hobbs to the Kelvin? It doesn't seem likely and we have brought this up before.

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