Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1797480 times)

Offline SeeShells

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When looking for a complicated effect like what may be happening in the EMThruster I've elected to keep it simple stupid. I have watched Rs's rotary table several times and analysed everything I could from the sounds of the air compressor rattling to coolant pumps and air bearing actions. While it looks impressive it is so complicated that questions are going to arise just like they are.

There may be an effect and there may be a thrust but digging that fact out from all the "stuff" on that rotating platform is nearly impossible. Makes me frustrated.

Even knowing all the details of this build you have so many devices on the platform that can vary their momentum and even react with each other let alone the Frustum throughout the test make it a tough test to decipher.

Even labs (EW) and Yang's who have access to some of the best testing equipment and designed tests for the DUTs come under fire. I'm sure my test and TT's test and rfmwguy's and EG's and all the others will too. It should be welcome for we all want to see this work and be proved one way or the other.

Shell


Offline Blaine

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Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.  And that is what this thread has become with the exception of a few people. Therefore, I will check back in a 2 weeks.  But until the traveler stops posting nonsensical crap I am gone for now.
Weird Science!

Offline SeeShells

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Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.  And that is what this thread has become with the exception of a few people. Therefore, I will check back in a 2 weeks.  But until the traveler stops posting nonsensical crap I am gone for now.
It's science in its raw form, a virtual meeting room with all the warts and B.O., in plain view with no filters. It human and it's who we are.

Offline Rodal

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Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:

<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.
Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.
The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>

That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:

" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0

"A study of microwave transmission perforated flat plates" http://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report2/II/IIO.PDF

Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example  (IEEE C 4 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>

http://www.yldperforatedmetal.com/Perforated-Metal-Screen.htm

« Last Edit: 07/11/2015 02:49 PM by Rodal »

Offline rfmwguy

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Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:

<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.
Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.
The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>

That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:

" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0

Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example  (IEEE C 4 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>
Very perceptive of you Doc, thought this was my little secret ;)

Offline TheTraveller

Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:

<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.
Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.
The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>

That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:

" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0

Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example  (IEEE C 4 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>

I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline SeeShells

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Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:

<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.
Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.
The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>

That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:

" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0

Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example  (IEEE C 4 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>
My very first clue was the mesh in the microwave, if the mesh absorbed microwaves it would get quite hot and your coffee would stay cold. The second was it is used for lightening the weight of large dishes and simply to let the rain water and snow escape. Digging further it became apparent that this would be a good build and even if the reflective end plates became a issue from an unseen leakage or excess generation of absorbed heat it would be a simple matter to replace them with a solid.

I verified this with an old lurker here (you know who you are) who is a ham and a technical geek of unusual abilities. He asked how big were my holes and then scoffed and said that is not a problem at all.

I also reviewed several publications online (links provided were from here) and found out it also wasn't a issue.

Believe me I needed to be skeptical, microwaves are nothing to develop a cavalier attitude about.     

Thanks Dr. Rodal for that link.

Shell

Offline SeeShells

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This is what I'm using...
0.0625 holes with 3/32 stagger spacing copper perforated sheet ~.020 thick. Have thicker on order but needs to be made.

.0625 inch hole works out to 188.9 GHz wavelength.


Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:

<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.
Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.
The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>

That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:

" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0

"A study of microwave transmission perforated flat plates" http://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report2/II/IIO.PDF

Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example  (IEEE C 4 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>

http://www.yldperforatedmetal.com/Perforated-Metal-Screen.htm

Offline TheTraveller

Bringing Light to the Dark

There is virtually no detailed experimental data for any EMDrive test. The data which is available is not independently verified. We try to form understandings of what is going on inside the EMDrive based on no detailed and verifiable data. The process becomes more faith based than science based. Until we have independently verified experimental data, on the same device but verified by multiple independent sources, nothing useful will happen.

That is why I constructed my experimental EMDrive program, to provide detailed independently verified data that can become the focus of theory discussions.

During my experimental data runs, I will provide live streaming video, live data feeds and real time chat. I will publish the live session times and you all are welcome to stop by, observe and make suggestions on test protocols, data collection methods and what to test for. With-in the limits of my test system, I will try to honour every data/test request in as close to real time as possible.

Once that process is completed, I will provide independent verifiers, at no cost, a complete EMDrive test system, minus the rotary test rig.

This is the only way I know of to allow all of us to focus on what the independently verified experimental data will be trying to teach us.
« Last Edit: 07/11/2015 02:57 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline rfmwguy

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Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:

<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.
Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.
The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>

That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:

" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0

Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example  (IEEE C 4 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>

I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
Very simple...rigidity and weather resistance.

Offline SeeShells

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Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:


I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:



I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
*****
Heat in a heavy commercial waveguide from continuous running, changing and longitudinal dimensions thereby affecting wave  transmission. It would be nice if we could afford a slab of copper (like what was used in the design of the SCSC for accelerating the proton beams) to absorb the excess heat, but my gofundme isn't going to allow that.

A closed cavity is like a copper pot capped off on your stove heating water for tea. You cannot control the retention of the heat and eventually at 1000 watts input it might reach a thermal equilibrium of about 170F or 76.6C but not without going through growth pains. If you throw in some water into the cavity with a hole, it might whistle like a teapot before too long. ;)

The perforated copper at least allows some heat to escape and prevents the hot air balloon theory. The side walls are the killer in thermal expansion, just like a high power wave guide where the tune length is the critical issue.

My endplates are allowed to laterally expand and I'm limiting the long axis expansion with a perforated copper design for heat.

Offline TheTraveller

Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:

<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.
Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.
The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>

That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:

" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0

Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example  (IEEE C 4 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>

I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
Very simple...rigidity and weather resistance.

Build as you will, just understand there is NO data that I can find on how copper mesh works as a waveguide. That should maybe tell you something?

I'll build using solid and rigid copper than has a highly polished, scratch and ding free internal surface and is capable of being silver plated with a gold over flash.

Time will tell what results the copper mesh builders get.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline SeeShells

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Bringing Light to the Dark

There is virtually no detailed experimental data for any EMDrive test. The data which is available is not independently verified. We try to form understandings of what is going on inside the EMDrive based on no detailed and verifiable data. The process becomes more faith based than science based. Until we have independently verified experimental data, on the same device but verified by multiple independent sources, nothing useful will happen.

That is why I constructed my experimental EMDrive program, to provide detailed independently verified data that can become the focus of theory discussions.

During my experimental data runs, I will provide live streaming video, live data feeds and real time chat. I will publish the live session times and you all are welcome to stop by, observe and make suggestions on test protocols, data collection methods and what to test for. With-in the limits of my test system, I will try to honour every data/test request in as close to real time as possible.

Once that process is completed, I will provide independent verifiers, at no cost, a complete EMDrive test system, minus the rotary test rig.

This is the only way I know of to allow all of us to focus on what the independently verified experimental data will be trying to teach us.
Two others and one just posted a bit ago before disappearing into China we assume built or are building solid copper frustums. We still cannot "look" into one and see what is going on. we still are not sure if we have addressed the thermal expansion of a solid copper cavity in the heating of the air. We still haven't addressed reducing the weight while still maintaining the EMDrive thrust effects.

The only thing that has changed in my design is the perforated copper sheet and it will be interesting to compare yours and any others to this.

Offline SeeShells

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Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:

<<You need to ask yourself why copper mesh is not used in the microwave industry to build waveguides? Would be heaps lighter, lower weight and cost.
Might be because mesh it is good at absorbing microwave energy that strikes it but bad at reflecting / propogating microwave energy that strikes it.
The inside of your cavity needs to be very highly polished, ding & scratch free rigid copper that reflects and propogates microwave energy with VERY little energy loss, instead of absorbing the energy and turning it into heat.>>

That's not correct, actually in the aerospace industry the use of a mesh is quite common:

" Why is my Satellite Dish full of holes?" http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16208.0

Wikipedia <<With lower frequencies, C-band for example  (IEEE C 4 8 GHz), dish designers have a wider choice of materials. The large size of dish required for lower frequencies led to the dishes being constructed from metal mesh on a metal framework. At higher frequencies, mesh type designs are rarer though some designs have used a solid dish with perforations>>

I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
Very simple...rigidity and weather resistance.

Build as you will, just understand there is NO data that I can find on how copper mesh works as a waveguide. That should maybe tell you something?

I'll build using solid and rigid copper than has a highly polished, scratch and ding free internal surface and is capable of being silver plated with a gold over flash.

Time will tell what results the copper mesh builders get.
Read this...
http://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report2/II/IIO.PDF

Shell

Offline SeeShells

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...

Build as you will, just understand there is NO data that I can find on how copper mesh works as a waveguide. That should maybe tell you something?

I'll build using solid and rigid copper than has a highly polished, scratch and ding free internal surface and is capable of being silver plated with a gold over flash.

Time will tell what results the copper mesh builders get.

Data here for example:

http://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report2/II/IIO.PDF

including waveguide and free space techniques.
Ha! You're very fast Doc! I read this weeks ago.

Offline TheTraveller

Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:


I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:



I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
*****
Heat in a heavy commercial waveguide from continuous running, changing and longitudinal dimensions thereby affecting wave  transmission. It would be nice if we could afford a slab of copper (like what was used in the design of the SCSC for accelerating the proton beams) to absorb the excess heat, but my gofundme isn't going to allow that.

A closed cavity is like a copper pot capped off on your stove heating water for tea. You cannot control the retention of the heat and eventually at 1000 watts input it might reach a thermal equilibrium of about 170F or 76.6C but not without going through growth pains. If you throw in some water into the cavity with a hole, it might whistle like a teapot before too long. ;)

The perforated copper at least allows some heat to escape and prevents the hot air balloon theory. The side walls are the killer in thermal expansion, just like a high power wave guide where the tune length is the critical issue.

My endplates are allowed to laterally expand and I'm limiting the long axis expansion with a perforated copper design for heat.

I suggest you might be lucky to get 100W inside the cavity as the magnetron output is all over the board.

My build is air tight, with O ring seals at the end. There is an air valve in the side wall that will allow the cavity to be pumped down to a partial vacuum and back filled with N. It will still run at a partial vacuum but filled with N.

I believe around 10Ws of power will be more than enough to get good acceleration on my rotary test rig. While I will do tests up to 100W, they will not be the normal test runs, which will be run at around 10Ws.

I have no intention of frying my EMDrive, that has taken 2 weeks full time work to manufacture, by subjecting it to high heat stress.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline SeeShells

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Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:


I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:



I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
*****
Heat in a heavy commercial waveguide from continuous running, changing and longitudinal dimensions thereby affecting wave  transmission. It would be nice if we could afford a slab of copper (like what was used in the design of the SCSC for accelerating the proton beams) to absorb the excess heat, but my gofundme isn't going to allow that.

A closed cavity is like a copper pot capped off on your stove heating water for tea. You cannot control the retention of the heat and eventually at 1000 watts input it might reach a thermal equilibrium of about 170F or 76.6C but not without going through growth pains. If you throw in some water into the cavity with a hole, it might whistle like a teapot before too long. ;)

The perforated copper at least allows some heat to escape and prevents the hot air balloon theory. The side walls are the killer in thermal expansion, just like a high power wave guide where the tune length is the critical issue.

My endplates are allowed to laterally expand and I'm limiting the long axis expansion with a perforated copper design for heat.

I suggest you might be lucky to get 100W inside the cavity as the magnetron output is all over the board.

My build is air tight, with O ring seals at the end. There is an air valve in the side wall that will allow the cavity to be pumped down to a partial vacuum and back filled with N. It will still run at a partial vacuum but filled with N.

I believe around 10Ws of power will be more than enough to get good acceleration on my rotary test rig. While I will do tests up to 100W, they will not be the normal test runs, which will be run at around 10Ws.

I have no intention of frying my EMDrive, that has taken 2 weeks full time work to manufacture, by subjecting it to high heat stress.
With great power comes great load.

Are you putting your carousel on a anti-vibration stand?

Shell

Offline TheTraveller

...

Build as you will, just understand there is NO data that I can find on how copper mesh works as a waveguide. That should maybe tell you something?

I'll build using solid and rigid copper than has a highly polished, scratch and ding free internal surface and is capable of being silver plated with a gold over flash.

Time will tell what results the copper mesh builders get.

Data here for example, in the Jet Propulsion Laboratory website:

http://ipnpr.jpl.nasa.gov/progress_report2/II/IIO.PDF

including waveguide and free space techniques. 

Mostly aerospace applications are interested in this.  You are not going to find people interested in making small-cross-section waveguides out of perforated plates, for commercial applications since durability much trumps any weight savings for commercial applications.

My comments were in reference to copper mesh (very big holes with very small conductive surface area) and not to copper plate with holes in it, which according to the paper, shows a loss at the DSS 14 antenna of 43db transmission loss. That is a lot of loss for one bounce.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline zellerium

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I suggest you might be lucky to get 100W inside the cavity as the magnetron output is all over the board.

...

Could you please elaborate?

Do you mean 100 W at the resonant frequency?

Offline TheTraveller

Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:


I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
Somebody posted this a couple of hours ago in another EM Drive forum:



I will state my case again:

Why does the waveguide industry NOT make cavities of copper mesh?

The EMDrive is a tapered waveguide.
*****
Heat in a heavy commercial waveguide from continuous running, changing and longitudinal dimensions thereby affecting wave  transmission. It would be nice if we could afford a slab of copper (like what was used in the design of the SCSC for accelerating the proton beams) to absorb the excess heat, but my gofundme isn't going to allow that.

A closed cavity is like a copper pot capped off on your stove heating water for tea. You cannot control the retention of the heat and eventually at 1000 watts input it might reach a thermal equilibrium of about 170F or 76.6C but not without going through growth pains. If you throw in some water into the cavity with a hole, it might whistle like a teapot before too long. ;)

The perforated copper at least allows some heat to escape and prevents the hot air balloon theory. The side walls are the killer in thermal expansion, just like a high power wave guide where the tune length is the critical issue.

My endplates are allowed to laterally expand and I'm limiting the long axis expansion with a perforated copper design for heat.

I suggest you might be lucky to get 100W inside the cavity as the magnetron output is all over the board.

My build is air tight, with O ring seals at the end. There is an air valve in the side wall that will allow the cavity to be pumped down to a partial vacuum and back filled with N. It will still run at a partial vacuum but filled with N.

I believe around 10Ws of power will be more than enough to get good acceleration on my rotary test rig. While I will do tests up to 100W, they will not be the normal test runs, which will be run at around 10Ws.

I have no intention of frying my EMDrive, that has taken 2 weeks full time work to manufacture, by subjecting it to high heat stress.
With great power comes great load.

Are you putting your carousel on a anti-vibration stand?

Shell

My workshop has a leveled hand laid, not by me, firebrick floor on 200mm of leveled and hard packed sand, with 5m or so of carpeted work bench area. There will be plenty of vibration to trigger MOTOR mode.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

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