Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1874118 times)

Offline aero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2785
  • 92129
  • Liked: 724
  • Likes Given: 249
@deuteragenie Thanks again for finding that tool. It's very similar to what I have been using. The command that seems to work for me is
h5totxt -t 325 -0 -x -49 -o ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez-final-base.csv ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez.h5
Of course we will find out as soon as someone starts to look at the data.


 So all you data reduction gurus, have a ball.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tfnEyQ3l2b053cWFaUGxBcGhDb3FXdFZBbkhSaGtZR3RTd0F5THdvd1oxeWM&usp=sharing

There are 6 .csv files of the big end base view at the end of the run. As such they are small files, 250 kB compared to the Meep output .h5 files of 2.9 GB each. I could attach them here, they are small enough, but by putting them on Google drive they are safe from moving up thread. Just save the link. The folder is in the NSF-1701 folder so maybe the old link will work to access them.
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline Fractal

  • Member
  • Posts: 4
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 73
Weird, take a look at: http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/act/html/omptv1.htm

"On January 31, 2002, the NASA patent application US2002012221 " Apparatus and Method for generating a thrust using a two dimensional asymmetrical capacitor module " has been granted."

Looks alot like a shawyer frustum...

From the article:

The dielectric material of a capacitor under high voltage experiences a force. Based on the geometry of the capacitor, its material properties, and ambient conditions, the force can be predicted and utilized to move the entire capacitor and its mounting in a predictable direction.

Are there any parts of the EM drive that may act as a high voltage capacitor?

Offline X_RaY

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1001
  • Likes Given: 2193
Have anybody here full access to the following work?
Or have others link this in the past/other thread in the forum? ::)

find this on a german page:
http://www.pro-physik.de/details/opnews/7298581/Lichtquanten_troedeln_im_Vakuum.html

Spatially structured photons that travel in free space slower than the speed of light

    Daniel Giovannini1,*, Jacquiline Romero1,*, Václav Potoček1,2, Gergely Ferenczi1, Fiona Speirits1, Stephen M. Barnett1, Daniele Faccio3, Miles J. Padgett1,†

+
Author Affiliations

    1School of Physics and Astronomy, Scottish Universities Physics Alliance (SUPA), University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, UK.
    2Faculty of Nuclear Sciences and Physical Engineering, Czech Technical University in Prague, Brehová 7, 115 19 Praha 1, Czech Republic.
    3School of Engineering and Physical Sciences, SUPA, Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh EH14 4AS, UK.

    ↵†Corresponding author. E-mail: miles.padgett@glasgow.ac.uk

    ↵* These authors contributed equally to this work.

    Abstract
    Editor's Summary

That the speed of light in free space is constant is a cornerstone of modern physics. However, light beams have finite transverse size, which leads to a modification of their wave vectors resulting in a change to their phase and group velocities. We study the group velocity of single photons by measuring a change in their arrival time that results from changing the beam’s transverse spatial structure. Using time-correlated photon pairs, we show a reduction in the group velocity of photons in both a Bessel beam and photons in a focused Gaussian beam. In both cases, the delay is several micrometers over a propagation distance of ~1 meter. Our work highlights that, even in free space, the invariance of the speed of light only applies to plane waves.


D. Giovannini et al.: Spatially structured photons that travel in free space slower than the speed of light, Science, online 22. Januar 2015; DOI: 10.1126/science.aaa3035


UPDATE:  I got it :) http://arxiv.org/abs/1411.3987
« Last Edit: 06/30/2015 05:59 PM by X_RaY »

Online WarpTech

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Do it!
  • Vista, CA
  • Liked: 1350
  • Likes Given: 1814
Weird, take a look at: http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/act/html/omptv1.htm

"On January 31, 2002, the NASA patent application US2002012221 " Apparatus and Method for generating a thrust using a two dimensional asymmetrical capacitor module " has been granted."

Looks alot like a shawyer frustum...

From the article:

The dielectric material of a capacitor under high voltage experiences a force. Based on the geometry of the capacitor, its material properties, and ambient conditions, the force can be predicted and utilized to move the entire capacitor and its mounting in a predictable direction.

Are there any parts of the EM drive that may act as a high voltage capacitor?

More like a high current inductor.

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
@deuteragenie Thanks again for finding that tool. It's very similar to what I have been using. The command that seems to work for me is
h5totxt -t 325 -0 -x -49 -o ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez-final-base.csv ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez.h5
Of course we will find out as soon as someone starts to look at the data.


 So all you data reduction gurus, have a ball.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tfnEyQ3l2b053cWFaUGxBcGhDb3FXdFZBbkhSaGtZR3RTd0F5THdvd1oxeWM&usp=sharing

There are 6 .csv files of the big end base view at the end of the run. As such they are small files, 250 kB compared to the Meep output .h5 files of 2.9 GB each. I could attach them here, they are small enough, but by putting them on Google drive they are safe from moving up thread. Just save the link. The folder is in the NSF-1701 folder so maybe the old link will work to access them.

For example, ex-final-base is a perfectly symmetric square array (106 by 106 entries) of very small numbers (see image attached below).

Maximum value of this matrix = 3.78981*10^-8
Minimum value of this matrix = -3.78981*10^-8

The data histogram (after flattening the matrix) shows it to have a perfectly symmetric distribution as shown below, centered around a value of zero.

We need you to disclose the formatting.  What is the meaning of the 106 by 106 entries in the array?
What is your Finite Difference Grid Mesh?  How many FD grid points in the y axis? in the z axis? Are the FD grid points spaced uniformly apart ?
« Last Edit: 06/30/2015 06:23 PM by Rodal »

Offline deuteragenie

  • Member
  • Posts: 71
  • Germany
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 0
@deuteragenie Thanks again for finding that tool. It's very similar to what I have been using. The command that seems to work for me is
h5totxt -t 325 -0 -x -49 -o ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez-final-base.csv ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez.h5
Of course we will find out as soon as someone starts to look at the data.


 So all you data reduction gurus, have a ball.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tfnEyQ3l2b053cWFaUGxBcGhDb3FXdFZBbkhSaGtZR3RTd0F5THdvd1oxeWM&usp=sharing

There are 6 .csv files of the big end base view at the end of the run. As such they are small files, 250 kB compared to the Meep output .h5 files of 2.9 GB each. I could attach them here, they are small enough, but by putting them on Google drive they are safe from moving up thread. Just save the link. The folder is in the NSF-1701 folder so maybe the old link will work to access them.

Progress ! Would it be possible for you to load the final .h5 file or is it too big ? That will allow everyone to try to extract the data as wished.

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
@deuteragenie Thanks again for finding that tool. It's very similar to what I have been using. The command that seems to work for me is
h5totxt -t 325 -0 -x -49 -o ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez-final-base.csv ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez.h5
Of course we will find out as soon as someone starts to look at the data.


 So all you data reduction gurus, have a ball.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tfnEyQ3l2b053cWFaUGxBcGhDb3FXdFZBbkhSaGtZR3RTd0F5THdvd1oxeWM&usp=sharing

There are 6 .csv files of the big end base view at the end of the run. As such they are small files, 250 kB compared to the Meep output .h5 files of 2.9 GB each. I could attach them here, they are small enough, but by putting them on Google drive they are safe from moving up thread. Just save the link. The folder is in the NSF-1701 folder so maybe the old link will work to access them.

For example, ex-final-base is a perfectly symmetric square array (106 by 106 entries) of very small numbers (see image attached below).

Maximum value of this matrix = 3.78981*10^-8
Minimum value of this matrix = -3.78981*10^-8

The data histogram (after flattening the matrix) shows it to have a perfectly symmetric distribution as shown below, centered around a value of zero.

We need you to disclose the formatting.  What is the meaning of the 106 by 106 entries in the array?
What is your Finite Difference Grid Mesh?  How many FD grid points in the y axis? in the z axis? Are the FD grid points spaced uniformly apart ?

I attach contour plots of ex and hy with numerical values (of whatever this symmetric square matrix is supposed to be :) )

Where is Waldo ?
« Last Edit: 06/30/2015 05:53 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
To plot on a meaningful basis, one needs the output to be associated with the x,y,z coordinates of each FD grid point location associated with the field vector component.

For example:

{{Ex1,{ x1, y1, z1}}, {Ex2,{ x2, y2, z2}}.......}


Having field vector component data without an association as to what gridpoints it is attached to, and the coordinates of those gridpoints, would be useful only for a square grid FD mesh of equally spaced FD gridpoints.
« Last Edit: 06/30/2015 06:34 PM by Rodal »

Offline aero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2785
  • 92129
  • Liked: 724
  • Likes Given: 249
@deuteragenie Thanks again for finding that tool. It's very similar to what I have been using. The command that seems to work for me is
h5totxt -t 325 -0 -x -49 -o ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez-final-base.csv ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez.h5
Of course we will find out as soon as someone starts to look at the data.


 So all you data reduction gurus, have a ball.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tfnEyQ3l2b053cWFaUGxBcGhDb3FXdFZBbkhSaGtZR3RTd0F5THdvd1oxeWM&usp=sharing

There are 6 .csv files of the big end base view at the end of the run. As such they are small files, 250 kB compared to the Meep output .h5 files of 2.9 GB each. I could attach them here, they are small enough, but by putting them on Google drive they are safe from moving up thread. Just save the link. The folder is in the NSF-1701 folder so maybe the old link will work to access them.

Progress ! Would it be possible for you to load the final .h5 file or is it too big ? That will allow everyone to try to extract the data as wished.

Well, anything is possible but some things are less practical than others. There are 6 final .h5 files, Ex, Ey, Ez, Hx, Hy and Hz. Each of them are 2.9 GB and when zipped all together still nearly 12 GB. I estimate this would take over 16 hours to upload.

We need to reach a consensus on what I can do to reduce the data set. The 2.9GB files have 10 views per cycle. Reducing to 1 view per cycle should reduce the output to about 290 MB, still large, but a much more convenient size to transmit over the Internet. Reducing the output to only 4 views per cycle would still more than halve the size, which would be a big help for moving the data around.

This is a problem that needs to be solved. I already have a fast cable Internet connection so going faster isn't a good answer. And for general investigation working with the .h5 data, I don't know that all of those time slices add very much.
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline Fractal

  • Member
  • Posts: 4
  • Liked: 4
  • Likes Given: 73
@deuteragenie Thanks again for finding that tool. It's very similar to what I have been using. The command that seems to work for me is
h5totxt -t 325 -0 -x -49 -o ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez-final-base.csv ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez.h5
Of course we will find out as soon as someone starts to look at the data.


 So all you data reduction gurus, have a ball.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tfnEyQ3l2b053cWFaUGxBcGhDb3FXdFZBbkhSaGtZR3RTd0F5THdvd1oxeWM&usp=sharing

There are 6 .csv files of the big end base view at the end of the run. As such they are small files, 250 kB compared to the Meep output .h5 files of 2.9 GB each. I could attach them here, they are small enough, but by putting them on Google drive they are safe from moving up thread. Just save the link. The folder is in the NSF-1701 folder so maybe the old link will work to access them.

For example, ex-final-base is a perfectly symmetric square array (106 by 106 entries) of very small numbers (see image attached below).

Maximum value of this matrix = 3.78981*10^-8
Minimum value of this matrix = -3.78981*10^-8

The data histogram (after flattening the matrix) shows it to have a perfectly symmetric distribution as shown below, centered around a value of zero.

We need you to disclose the formatting.  What is the meaning of the 106 by 106 entries in the array?
What is your Finite Difference Grid Mesh?  How many FD grid points in the y axis? in the z axis? Are the FD grid points spaced uniformly apart ?

I attach contour plots of ex and hy with numerical values (of whatever this symmetric square matrix is supposed to be :) )

Where is Waldo ?

To my untrained eyes, the first contour plot pic looks like a 3 wave, and the 2nd pic looks like a 4 wave.

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
Before talking about 12 GB files of data, one needs to have, at a minimum knowledge of the Finite Difference mesh:
the x, y, z locations of each FD grid.   That is a much, much, smaller, tinier, file.

{{ x1, y1, z1}, { x2, y2, z2}.......}


Ideally, one would have the slice file with each component associated with the gridpoint coordinates:

{{Ex1,{ x1, y1, z1}}, {Ex2,{ x2, y2, z2}}.......}


Otherwise, one could have the correspondence between the matrices, for example:

{{Ex1}, {Ex2}}.......}

where the entries correspond, one-to-one to the grid-points:

{{ x1, y1, z1}, { x2, y2, z2}.......}
« Last Edit: 06/30/2015 06:57 PM by Rodal »

Offline deuteragenie

  • Member
  • Posts: 71
  • Germany
  • Liked: 22
  • Likes Given: 0
@deuteragenie Thanks again for finding that tool. It's very similar to what I have been using. The command that seems to work for me is
h5totxt -t 325 -0 -x -49 -o ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez-final-base.csv ./NSF-1701-work-h5-data/ez.h5
Of course we will find out as soon as someone starts to look at the data.


 So all you data reduction gurus, have a ball.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tfnEyQ3l2b053cWFaUGxBcGhDb3FXdFZBbkhSaGtZR3RTd0F5THdvd1oxeWM&usp=sharing

There are 6 .csv files of the big end base view at the end of the run. As such they are small files, 250 kB compared to the Meep output .h5 files of 2.9 GB each. I could attach them here, they are small enough, but by putting them on Google drive they are safe from moving up thread. Just save the link. The folder is in the NSF-1701 folder so maybe the old link will work to access them.

Progress ! Would it be possible for you to load the final .h5 file or is it too big ? That will allow everyone to try to extract the data as wished.

Well, anything is possible but some things are less practical than others. There are 6 final .h5 files, Ex, Ey, Ez, Hx, Hy and Hz. Each of them are 2.9 GB and when zipped all together still nearly 12 GB. I estimate this would take over 16 hours to upload.

We need to reach a consensus on what I can do to reduce the data set. The 2.9GB files have 10 views per cycle. Reducing to 1 view per cycle should reduce the output to about 290 MB, still large, but a much more convenient size to transmit over the Internet. Reducing the output to only 4 views per cycle would still more than halve the size, which would be a big help for moving the data around.

This is a problem that needs to be solved. I already have a fast cable Internet connection so going faster isn't a good answer. And for general investigation working with the .h5 data, I don't know that all of those time slices add very much.

Yep I understand the difficulty.  Sharing the .ctl file would allow Meep users to recreate locally the .h5 files so that is one option to avoid bandwidth problems at the cost of computational resources.  It would also allow others to peer review the model.
The reason I asked if you could share the .h5 file is to check that the right dimension has been extracted. There must be a h5ls utility that allows to check the structure of a h5 file : https://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~wilkins/computing/HDF/hdf5tutorial/util.html maybe you could run that to be sure you extract the right serie ?
« Last Edit: 06/30/2015 06:59 PM by deuteragenie »

Offline deltaMass

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 955
  • A Brit in California
  • Liked: 671
  • Likes Given: 275
Weird, take a look at: http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/act/html/omptv1.htm

"On January 31, 2002, the NASA patent application US2002012221 " Apparatus and Method for generating a thrust using a two dimensional asymmetrical capacitor module " has been granted."

Looks alot like a shawyer frustum...

From the article:

The dielectric material of a capacitor under high voltage experiences a force. Based on the geometry of the capacitor, its material properties, and ambient conditions, the force can be predicted and utilized to move the entire capacitor and its mounting in a predictable direction.

Are there any parts of the EM drive that may act as a high voltage capacitor?
Your primary error is to believe what appears on Naudin's website.

Online tchernik

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 251
  • Liked: 298
  • Likes Given: 583
Weird, take a look at: http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/act/html/omptv1.htm

"On January 31, 2002, the NASA patent application US2002012221 " Apparatus and Method for generating a thrust using a two dimensional asymmetrical capacitor module " has been granted."

Looks alot like a shawyer frustum...

From the article:

The dielectric material of a capacitor under high voltage experiences a force. Based on the geometry of the capacitor, its material properties, and ambient conditions, the force can be predicted and utilized to move the entire capacitor and its mounting in a predictable direction.

Are there any parts of the EM drive that may act as a high voltage capacitor?
Your primary error is to believe what appears on Naudin's website.

Isn't he the same guy that says ionocraft (aka lifters) are actually anti-gravity devices?

Offline aero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2785
  • 92129
  • Liked: 724
  • Likes Given: 249
To plot on a meaningful basis, one needs the output to be associated with the x,y,z coordinates of each FD grid point location associated with the field vector component.

For example:

{{Ex1,{ x1, y1, z1}}, {Ex2,{ x2, y2, z2}}.......}


Having field vector component data without an association as to what gridpoints it is attached to, and the coordinates of those gridpoints, would be useful only for a square grid FD mesh of equally spaced FD gridpoints.

The .csv files contain end views (y-z plane, with x= -49 being the axial coordinate and t = 325, the time coordinate) of the computational lattice with the zero point centered. From this view, the lattice appears to be square, 106 x 106 uniformly spaced pixels counting both edges. That corresponds to 0.3168268537142857 x 0.3168268537142857 meters, so the pixel separation is about 0.002988933 meters, ~ 3 mm. That is much more separation than I would like but you know my issues with resolution. I could increase resolution some, but not a lot.

edit x = -49
« Last Edit: 06/30/2015 07:09 PM by aero »
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline Blaine

  • Member
  • Posts: 58
  • Spring Hill, KS
  • Liked: 45
  • Likes Given: 122
Here is a quote about looking for the Higgs Boson, why it is challenging in science to erase all doubts when one is looking for something just above the noise level.  It believe this idea of looking just above the noise level for something so deep and profound should challenge us and not deter.  Take a look at this quote borrowed from a Live Science article.

     "Researchers looking into the depths of the Universe and the inner depths of subatomic particles are searching   for signals at the edge of detectability, just above the noise level and in proximity to the signals from other   sources."

Do not take my word for it, but IMHO it means that even if the chance is small we should continue to delve into the possibility the EmDrive is real.  What do you all think?
« Last Edit: 06/30/2015 07:35 PM by Blaine »
Weird Science!

Offline aero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2785
  • 92129
  • Liked: 724
  • Likes Given: 249
@Dr. Rodal

Would you like for me to change my coordinate system to make the z axis the axis of rotation? I could do that, most likely it would be quick, but I won't re-run the data that I have already uploaded so you would need to remember which runs are calculated with "image" coordinates and which runs are calculated with "physics conventions."
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
To plot on a meaningful basis, one needs the output to be associated with the x,y,z coordinates of each FD grid point location associated with the field vector component.

For example:

{{Ex1,{ x1, y1, z1}}, {Ex2,{ x2, y2, z2}}.......}


Having field vector component data without an association as to what gridpoints it is attached to, and the coordinates of those gridpoints, would be useful only for a square grid FD mesh of equally spaced FD gridpoints.

The .csv files contain end views (y-z plane, with x= -49 being the axial coordinate and t = 325, the time coordinate) of the computational lattice with the zero point centered. From this view, the lattice appears to be square, 106 x 106 uniformly spaced pixels counting both edges. That corresponds to 0.3168268537142857 x 0.3168268537142857 meters, so the pixel separation is about 0.002988933 meters, ~ 3 mm. That is much more separation than I would like but you know my issues with resolution. I could increase resolution some, but not a lot.

edit x = -49

1) We are not discussing the coarseness of the FD mesh at the moment.  All we are discussing is to try to understand what we are plotting.

I thought that these were trapezium views of either the x-z plane or the x-y plane.

You are saying that it is the y-z plane.

If so, this should look like a CIRCLE, instead of a square.  The cross section of the truncated cone is circular.

Therefore, to plot the information we need to know the coordinates of the true FD circular grid, which we don't have at the moment

{{ x1, y1, z1}, { x2, y2, z2}.......}

Ideally, we should have:

{{Ex1,{ x1, y1, z1}}, {Ex2,{ x2, y2, z2}}.......}

2)  All the contour plots look fractal and malformed.  All the numbers looks extremely small (10^-8).  These data set does not look like the previous data sets for L=9  of RFMWGUY, that had some sets with well-formed patterns, for the circular view.

What is  t = 325? Is that time step 325 ? Or is that in some time unit? Is this set the one that corresponds to the very last time step?  If so is the time step equally advanced as the previous data or is this for the early, negligible transient response (and that's why it looks so bad: it is ZERO)

3) If this is the data set for L=10.2 I suggest to give the data sets for the last time step associated with the well-formed electric patterns in the trapezium views instead of circular. 

4) The L=9 set had good circular view of one of the magnetic fields showing a quadrupole
« Last Edit: 06/30/2015 07:43 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5895
  • USA
  • Liked: 6045
  • Likes Given: 5325
@Dr. Rodal

Would you like for me to change my coordinate system to make the z axis the axis of rotation? I could do that, most likely it would be quick, but I won't re-run the data that I have already uploaded so you would need to remember which runs are calculated with "image" coordinates and which runs are calculated with "physics conventions."

No thanks.  It is just that it was not clear to me what plane we were looking at.  Now I understand that we are looking at the y-z plane.  Thanks.

Everything is OK at this point.   Don't need a 12 GB file at this point :).

What I would is to get a trapezium view (instead of a circular view) numerical data for L=10.2 for one of the electric view that clearly showed 4 or 3 waves. 

It is very difficult to visualize a circle as a square.  It will be easier looking at a trapezium view.
« Last Edit: 06/30/2015 07:49 PM by Rodal »

Offline aero

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2785
  • 92129
  • Liked: 724
  • Likes Given: 249
@Dr. Rodal

Would you like for me to change my coordinate system to make the z axis the axis of rotation? I could do that, most likely it would be quick, but I won't re-run the data that I have already uploaded so you would need to remember which runs are calculated with "image" coordinates and which runs are calculated with "physics conventions."

Right now I'm going to upload image files of the fields for NSF-1701 made by using a Gaussian source with Bandwidth = 0.025 * 2.45 GHz. The fields look much better than those calculated using a continuous source.

I have already uploaded the set of csv files and placed them in the NSF-1701 csv folder.
Retired, working interesting problems

Tags: