Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1874115 times)

Offline wallofwolfstreet

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Sorry to interrupt the great modeling work going on right now, but I condensed some of the recent findings on the intellectual property and financial aspects of SPR into a reddit post.

To summarize, it looks like SPR has had alot more money move through the organization over the last 15 years than originally thought.  It has received roughly 600,000 pounds in grants, loans and equity.  This is about 950,000 USD at current exchange rates.  If we adjust the time at which SPR received its' financing for inflation (grants received in 2000, over 250,000 pounds of equity in 2005), we get that SPR has had well over 1 million USD in total financing, in 2015 dollars.

As I wrote in the attached reddit post, I consider this very suspect.  A few patents, a few test articles and zero sales or licensing (at least licensing that SPR would actually get paid for) of any kind is very hard to justify given the resources at SPR had at its' disposal.   
I've been involved in many high tech projects and even ran my own multimillion dollar companies in very high tech and there is no way one person could do this kind of science by him/herself and expect clean and clear answers. This science takes a team and even with the brains here (self excluded) it's one tough nut to crack.
Although to credit RS he has taken this a long way and has been very myopic determined  to seeing it happen and that is a good quality to have. I'll give him credit where credit it due.

Shell

The "myopic determination" is IMHO his Achillles heel.  I still don't understand why hasn't he sought help from UK Universities: they have so many great scientists in the UK, at Cambridge, Oxford, etc..  Why he continues to insist on his insufficient explanations instead of seeking the help of mainstream scientists is beyond me. 

That lack of working with mainstream scientists IMHO is so odd, that I see it as a negative concerning the reality of the EM Drive.  IMHO either it is an experimental artifact, or if it works as space propulsion it must be due to something different from Shawyer's explanations.

Making a discovery and attributing it to a wrong explanation is actually common in Astrophysics.  In 1965 an initial claim was made by mainstream scientists that there might be intensity variations of intelligent origin in radio emission from the quasar CTA-102 - but this was quickly retracted. Then in 1967 when the first pulsar was discovered it was briefly thought that perhaps its precise 1.33730113-second repetition rate might be of intelligent origin.

The difference is those explanations by mainstream scientists at major universities and institutions were quickly retracted.  RS insistence on his kludgy explanations, for decades, even after the "New Scientis" article fiasco, and not seeking mainstream scientists' help is odd.

Shawyer actually has brought in outside expertise from academic institutions to help with the development of his theories. 

In the linked paper, which is from IAC, we see in the Acknowledgments  section:
Quote
The author is grateful for the assistance given
by colleagues in SPR Ltd, by Dr R B Paris of
Abertay University, Dundee, by J W Spiller of
Astrium UK Ltd and by Professor J Lucas of
The University of Liverpool. The early
theoretical work and experimental
programmes were carried out with support
from the Department of Trade and Industry
under their SMART award scheme, and then
under a Research and Development grant.

I assume he means Sheridan when he refers to colleagues in SPR. 

Dr. Richard Bruce Paris has interests in FLuid Dynamics, Electromagnetism and Computational Physics according to his research gate profile.  Interestingly, he actually received 12 shares for "professional services rendered to the value of 1000 pounds".  He is still holding these shares. 

Prof. James Lucas is a professor of electromagnetism, electrical engineering and electronics.  He was not rewarded with any shares.     
« Last Edit: 06/29/2015 12:19 AM by wallofwolfstreet »

Offline aero

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@DeltaMass
I think your model of copper permittivity at 2.4 GHz is probably correct.

What I don't think is correct is coding it in meep like this.
     (define CU-D-conduct (/ (* 2 pi f2_4GHzmeep 3.25E+8) 1))
     (material (make medium (epsilon 1) (D-conductivity CU-D-conduct)))

Rather I need to code it in meep something like this:

(define myCu (make dielectric (epsilon 1)
    (polarizations
     (make polarizability
    (omega 1e-20) (gamma 0.024197) (sigma 4.3873e+41))
    (make polarizability
    (omega 0.23471) (gamma 0.30488) (sigma 84.489))
)))
But this data is for frequency ~7 E+13 Hz (converting the 0.23471 frequency).
By following available instructions I can probably convert the DC polarizability, it will be the same, just adjusted for the meep scale factor that I use, replacing the 1.E-6 scale factor used in this data.  And the DC polarizability has very similar values for most of the metals in my source data set.  The problem with my using this model is: “What the … are the values of gamma and sigma at 2.4 GHz?” If I had them in SI units, I could convert them to meep units. Perhaps if I find your posts and study them, you have already told me and I just didn't recognize them.

Thank you for your help.

aero
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Offline aero

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At drive frequency of 2.45 GHz exactly, meep calculates Q ~100,000 but spits back the resonant frequency of 2.44357 GHz. I think that should work.

I'll now run some field patterns.

But a question. What do you estimate the noise bandwidth will be for your source? At BW = 0.04 *freq., meep only finds one frequency. With a wider BW, it might (likely would) find more than one.

aero
« Last Edit: 06/28/2015 11:27 PM by aero »
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Offline deltaMass

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I calculated relative permittivity which is a pure number - i.e. dimensionless. Ergo it should not matter one whit what local dimensional system is in use.
« Last Edit: 06/28/2015 11:33 PM by deltaMass »

Offline rfmwguy

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At drive frequency of 2.45 GHz exactly, meep calculates Q ~100,000 but spits back the resonant frequency of 2.44357 GHz. I think that should work.

I'll now run some field patterns.

But a question. What do you estimate the noise bandwidth will be for your source? At BW = 0.04 *freq., meep only finds one frequency. With a wider BW, it might (likely would) find more than one.

aero

Should have a -70 dbm ultimate floor can only guess its about 500khz wide at that point. Jt js an unmodulated fm source at 2.45 ghz

Offline Rodal

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At drive frequency of 2.45 GHz exactly, meep calculates Q ~100,000 but spits back the resonant frequency of 2.44357 GHz. I think that should work.

I'll now run some field patterns.

But a question. What do you estimate the noise bandwidth will be for your source? At BW = 0.04 *freq., meep only finds one frequency. With a wider BW, it might (likely would) find more than one.

aero
I have 2 licenses to run Mathematica concurrently, but both machines are running now and they will continue to run other programs for the rest of the evening.  So I cannot run Mathematica now to give you any further information than the natural frequency I gave you.  I estimate (but I maybe wrong) that TM114's frequency is 0.8% higher than TE013, TE114 is 3.9% higher frequency,  TM212 is 6.5% lower and TE213 is 9.2% lower. frequency.

Offline aero

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At drive frequency of 2.45 GHz exactly, meep calculates Q ~100,000 but spits back the resonant frequency of 2.44357 GHz. I think that should work.

I'll now run some field patterns.

But a question. What do you estimate the noise bandwidth will be for your source? At BW = 0.04 *freq., meep only finds one frequency. With a wider BW, it might (likely would) find more than one.

aero

Should have a -70 dbm ultimate floor can only guess its about 500khz wide at that point. Jt js an unmodulated fm source at 2.45 ghz

Meep can't even approach that narrow a noise bandwidth. 0.04 is stressing it, and 0.004 is out of the question. Should I then run the field patterns using a continuous source with no noise? I guess that is my only choice.
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Offline aero

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At drive frequency of 2.45 GHz exactly, meep calculates Q ~100,000 but spits back the resonant frequency of 2.44357 GHz. I think that should work.

I'll now run some field patterns.

But a question. What do you estimate the noise bandwidth will be for your source? At BW = 0.04 *freq., meep only finds one frequency. With a wider BW, it might (likely would) find more than one.

aero
I have 2 licenses to run Mathematica concurrently, but both machines are running now and they will continue to run other programs for the rest of the evening.  So I cannot run Mathematica now to give you any further information than the natural frequency I gave you.  I estimate (but I maybe wrong) that TM114's frequency is 0.8% higher than TE013, TE114 is 3.9% higher frequency,  TM212 is 6.5% lower and TE213 is 9.2% lower. frequency.


Using those estimates, Meep should have picked up TM114 (except I was exciting TE modes)  and maybe TE114. Probably not TM212 or TE213. I guess we'll see in the fields, if someone can get some numbers somehow.

As for the 2 licenses for Mathematica, have you given any thought to trying Maxima? I have confirmed that it is the DOE-MACSYMA program developed at MIT. It went public in 1998. Some sources indicate that it is based on the 1982 version of DOE-MACSYMA but that seems to be incorrect as the person in charge of maintaining it was key in it's public release in 1998. You could play with it while your two copies of Mathematica are chugging away, and it does run much of Mathematica's code. Some function names are different unfortunately, like the Bessel functions.
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Offline VAXHeadroom

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27-Jun-2015 Transverse Electric animation
1 frame/sec to 10 frames/sec (click later in the video for faster animation).
I have the tool path and presets down now, can do one of these in about 20 minutes...

« Last Edit: 06/29/2015 01:17 AM by VAXHeadroom »
Emory Stagmer
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Offline Rodal

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27-Jun-2015 Transverse Electric animation
1 frame/sec to 10 frames/sec (click later in the video for faster animation).
I have the tool path and presets down now, can do one of these in about 20 minutes...

Mesmerizing !

Looking forward to seeing the next one :)

Online WarpTech

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27-Jun-2015 Transverse Electric animation
1 frame/sec to 10 frames/sec (click later in the video for faster animation).
I have the tool path and presets down now, can do one of these in about 20 minutes...

Mesmerizing !

Looking forward to seeing the next one :)

Really cool, but is this with a loop antenna? Shouldn't it be rotated 90 deg, and be parallel to the end plate so the magnetic field is axial? Maybe I just don't know what I'm looking at. It would be nice to know which color is peak and which color is a node of the wave.
Todd

Offline ThinkerX

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At this point, I'm starting to wonder if we couldn't finance a cube sat from the sale of tie dyed t-shirts patterned after these MEEP images.

Offline aero

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27-Jun-2015 Transverse Electric animation
1 frame/sec to 10 frames/sec (click later in the video for faster animation).
I have the tool path and presets down now, can do one of these in about 20 minutes...

Mesmerizing !

Looking forward to seeing the next one :)

Really cool, but is this with a loop antenna? Shouldn't it be rotated 90 deg, and be parallel to the end plate so the magnetic field is axial? Maybe I just don't know what I'm looking at. It would be nice to know which color is peak and which color is a node of the wave.
Todd

No, it's a dipole. I don't know how to model a loop. The June 26 data had the antenna parallel to the end plate, the June 27 data it was axial. Both cases centered half wavelength from the small end.
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Offline rfmwguy

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At drive frequency of 2.45 GHz exactly, meep calculates Q ~100,000 but spits back the resonant frequency of 2.44357 GHz. I think that should work.

I'll now run some field patterns.

But a question. What do you estimate the noise bandwidth will be for your source? At BW = 0.04 *freq., meep only finds one frequency. With a wider BW, it might (likely would) find more than one.

aero

Should have a -70 dbm ultimate floor can only guess its about 500khz wide at that point. Jt js an unmodulated fm source at 2.45 ghz

Meep can't even approach that narrow a noise bandwidth. 0.04 is stressing it, and 0.004 is out of the question. Should I then run the field patterns using a continuous source with no noise? I guess that is my only choice.

Yes, thanks

Online WarpTech

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27-Jun-2015 Transverse Electric animation
1 frame/sec to 10 frames/sec (click later in the video for faster animation).
I have the tool path and presets down now, can do one of these in about 20 minutes...

Mesmerizing !

Looking forward to seeing the next one :)

Really cool, but is this with a loop antenna? Shouldn't it be rotated 90 deg, and be parallel to the end plate so the magnetic field is axial? Maybe I just don't know what I'm looking at. It would be nice to know which color is peak and which color is a node of the wave.
Todd

No, it's a dipole. I don't know how to model a loop. The June 26 data had the antenna parallel to the end plate, the June 27 data it was axial. Both cases centered half wavelength from the small end.

Understood. I think in order to have resonance off the small end, the feed needs to be 1/4 wavelength from it/ No? In a variable-v device, I'm not sure. What about a 1/4 wave dipole, with the base at the center of the small end?  I'm not asking you to do it, but if you want to, I think it would give you the TM01x modes.

Another question I have is, what is the shortest possible length that would resonate like this and in what mode?
Todd

Offline rfmwguy

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How to waste precious time on the build - spent 4hrs trying to get the cheap 100mw exciter to fire up...junk from china without an online manual. Its not the ten bucks, its the time wasted. Moral of story, get a well documented board or module. Forget troubleshooting, surface mount components, electronics hardware is throw away stuff now, which I just did >:(

Offline VAXHeadroom

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Transverse Magnetic animation
(exact same length as TE)
(Longitudinal in 5 minutes :) )

Emory Stagmer
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Offline DrBagelBites

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How to waste precious time on the build - spent 4hrs trying to get the cheap 100mw exciter to fire up...junk from china without an online manual. Its not the ten bucks, its the time wasted. Moral of story, get a well documented board or module. Forget troubleshooting, surface mount components, electronics hardware is throw away stuff now, which I just did >:(

Sorry to hear that, rfmwguy.

I'm awaiting to see if I will soon be in the same boat with the stuff I ordered as well.

I don't know when I'll learn that you can't afford to go cheap. ;)


Offline VAXHeadroom

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Longitudinal Animation

Emory Stagmer
  Executive Producer, Public Speaker UnTied Music - www.untiedmusic.com

Offline rfmwguy

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How to waste precious time on the build - spent 4hrs trying to get the cheap 100mw exciter to fire up...junk from china without an online manual. Its not the ten bucks, its the time wasted. Moral of story, get a well documented board or module. Forget troubleshooting, surface mount components, electronics hardware is throw away stuff now, which I just did >:(

Sorry to hear that, rfmwguy.

I'm awaiting to see if I will soon be in the same boat with the stuff I ordered as well.

I don't know when I'll learn that you can't afford to go cheap. ;)
Funny thing is the cheapest module caused the problem. No big deal, 2.4ghz stuff is in every store and easy to obtain which is a big plus. Let u know what I substitute in there...probably a teardown of a wifi cam. Most all are 100mw.

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