Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1875426 times)

I have advance & very agressive prostate cancer. Prostate has been removed along with a 9cm dia cancer mass. Seems they didnt get it all, so I'm back in hospital.

Haven't read the forum for days & likely will not for 3-5 more days.

Sorry to hear that, cancer took my mother. I'm sure you'll beat it soon, and look forward to your future posts!
« Last Edit: 06/27/2015 03:38 AM by zurael »

Offline DrBagelBites

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Have a swift recovery. We'll be here when you get back. :)

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Offline cej

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...
1. Small vibrations (heat) that are external to the drive's frustum: like a Brownian motor. An inertial ratchet could become buoyant by inducing its own pressure gradient: particles would impart more momentum on the large end than the small end.
...
Could you elaborate on this "buoyant" effect and provide some references?
(...)

I'm not referring to any "deep" concept of physics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy. But I will explain why I have chosen to use this term.

Buoyancy affects all objects in a gas or fluid when in an accelerated reference frame. One particular example is a hot air balloon rising against gravity because its density is smaller than the surrounding air.

But the underlying cause of this effect is due to the pressure gradient that acceleration creates in the particles of the surrounding medium. Under a pressure gradient, the vibration of individual particles exert more force on the "bottom" (w.r.t. acceleration) of an object than on its top because the pressure, i.e. momentum of the particles, is higher at the bottom. If the net force of acceleration on the object's mass (i.e. its weight) is less than the net force of acceleration on an equal volume of the surrounding medium, then the object will be pushed "up" w.r.t. acceleration. If greater, it will sink; and if equal, it will hover.

What is unique about an inertial ratchet is that it creates its own "pressure gradient"; not in the surrounding medium, but on itself. So when there is no pressure gradient in the surrounding medium, vibrating particles will still impart more momentum on one side of the ratchet than on the other. I am calling this effect "buoyancy" because there is a differential in how surrounding particles transfer momentum to an object and I expect it to behave similarly to traditional buoyancy. Unlike a balloon, however, an inertial ratchet will experience buoyancy in whichever direction you point it.

In the EM Drive experiments we've seen so far, this was not nearly enough to overcome gravity, but it might have been enough to lower its measured weight. (Of course, we also need to distinguish this from buoyancy caused by a change of air density inside its cavity). But if you put it on its side, then an inertial ratchet's own gradient will dominate and the surrounding air will cause it to move sideways.

In the experiments that weighed the EM Drive, the measured "thrust" has been a combination of the drive's resistance to the acceleration of gravity*, buoyancy in air, buoyancy of its cavity (e.g. hot air), and momentum imparted by vibrations in the scale. EW also tested the drive in a partial vacuum, which would predictably show much less buoyancy.

In the rotation experiments, the measured "thrust" would have been the result of horizontal buoyancy, vibrations in the rotating arm, and the drive's resistance to acceleration (or lack of, depending on orientation) as the rotation slows down due to friction.

Better experiments would either isolate each of these effects or show that the effect is negligible (in addition to eliminating measurement errors). Note that vibrations have a unique effect on an inertial ratchet that cannot be controlled for in the traditional way because they will not cancel themselves out.

This is all assuming the EM Drive is actually an inertial ratchet.

It is interesting because in my model of QG (...)
Sorry, I do not know how or if this fits in with your theory.  :-\


* Resisting gravity is another effect of this type of** inertial ratchet that is separate from buoyancy. If you were to stand on the moon and drop a hammer, feather, and inertial ratchet (oriented against gravity), then the feather and hammer will hit the ground at the same time, and before the inertial ratchet. An ideal/perfect inertial ratchet, if free of vibrations, will simply hover in place... or move tangentially away from the surface of the moon at a constant velocity? Crazy.

** My limited understanding is that existing inertial ratchets, unlike the hypothesized EM Drive, are based off interactions with other objects and don't actually resist gravity/acceleration itself.
« Last Edit: 06/27/2015 07:00 AM by cej »

Online WarpTech

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Regarding resonant modes in the frustum. Would there still be resonant modes if;

1. the frustum were open on the big end only?

2. the frustum were open on both ends?

IF I understand these modes correctly, the TExx0 modes resonate with the pointing vector radial in/out-ward from the axis to the walls. It seems to me, that a cone that is open on both ends would still support the same TEnm modes, just not the p modes. Correct?

If it's closed at the small end, it should still support odd harmonics of p modes. Correct?

Thank you!
Todd

It would support TExx modes but they would be travelling, out the end of the device. It wouldn't be a energy store like normal closed cavities, but simply an antenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_antenna
So even though the rectagon wire dimensions are a multiple of the 2.45 ghz wavelength  the waves would still pass? I know since the magnetron is such a wide band emitter you're probably right.
Shell

No Shell, what he's saying is if the end were open, no mesh at all, it would pass through to space (air). I'm still curious to know if there is say, a stable TE010 mode in a cylinder, when the ends are open rather than closed. One that is not traveling out the end.

Probably the tolerance for such stability in a cylinder is too tight? I think if you had a cylinder with a bulge in the middle, it could trap the mode there, but otherwise there is nothing to stabilize it without both ends in place.
Todd

Offline ZuluMoon99

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@TheTraveller

Have a swift recovery. We'll be here when you get back. :)

@TheTraveller

May I second that as well.

Been there done that - [a 1 in a million cancer that should have killed me], Ignore what is irrelevant, be thankful for the support of your family and the continued gift of life. Be positive of outlook, though these days are dark and come out stronger at the end.

Look forward to more sparkling conversations in the future.

Take care
-I

Offline rfmwguy

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Regarding resonant modes in the frustum. Would there still be resonant modes if;

1. the frustum were open on the big end only?

2. the frustum were open on both ends?

IF I understand these modes correctly, the TExx0 modes resonate with the pointing vector radial in/out-ward from the axis to the walls. It seems to me, that a cone that is open on both ends would still support the same TEnm modes, just not the p modes. Correct?

If it's closed at the small end, it should still support odd harmonics of p modes. Correct?

Thank you!
Todd

It would support TExx modes but they would be travelling, out the end of the device. It wouldn't be a energy store like normal closed cavities, but simply an antenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_antenna
So even though the rectagon wire dimensions are a multiple of the 2.45 ghz wavelength  the waves would still pass? I know since the magnetron is such a wide band emitter you're probably right.
Shell

No Shell, what he's saying is if the end were open, no mesh at all, it would pass through to space (air). I'm still curious to know if there is say, a stable TE010 mode in a cylinder, when the ends are open rather than closed. One that is not traveling out the end.

Probably the tolerance for such stability in a cylinder is too tight? I think if you had a cylinder with a bulge in the middle, it could trap the mode there, but otherwise there is nothing to stabilize it without both ends in place.
Todd

Warp and Shell,

Pardon the plain language, its the way my brain works, math and precision language will follow (way behind I might add). There are converging ideas here I have been trying to assimilate into a theorem in my rusty scientific mind, so I'll give you my 2c (pun intended) FWIW before I start my assembly tonight.

CoM must remain in effect. Anything leaving the frustum must "push" against something (TE standing waves or TM magnetic repulsion) or be "attracted" to something (TM magnetic attraction). My vote is pushing against something, the TE component of EM.

An open cavity is a horn, a simple MW antenna, is akin to turning on the garden hose and letting it run. A cavity is a garden hose nozzle, backing up water pressure then releasing with "thrust". So I envision the frustum cavity as a nozzle, building up em back pressure.

A mechanical device resonating MW energy that pulses or leaks out under pressure, is pushing against the electromagnetic soup surrounding us...call it aether, call it what you will. In the soup, there a complex mix of EM radiation. It is thin, and whatever hits it, setting up chaotic, random standing waves, resulting in a force (see Doc's acoustic video).

So we have a vapor thin EM soup here and in the cosmos...interacting with it is no minor challenge. The frustum must generate enough kinetic energy that it disrupts the soup and pushes off if it. A montrous amount of eV energy in comparison to the background eV. Call it delta eV.

I believe the frustum is trying to to this, ratchet, burp or leak will depend on the design. Looks like the UK boys had a simple gasket, which I would call a leak method. Guess it could be a ratchet release if the "gasket" had some properties that allowed energy to build up before it was burped (flux capacitor aside ;^) )...so peaked my interest in graphene.

Regardless, as you are finalizing your paper, thought I would spew out my half-baked ideas after spending much time reading everyone's great posts here and more than a few paper on the interwebs. Good luck on the paper and sorry for the stream of consciousness...
« Last Edit: 06/27/2015 01:49 PM by rfmwguy »

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Regarding resonant modes in the frustum. Would there still be resonant modes if;

1. the frustum were open on the big end only?

2. the frustum were open on both ends?

IF I understand these modes correctly, the TExx0 modes resonate with the pointing vector radial in/out-ward from the axis to the walls. It seems to me, that a cone that is open on both ends would still support the same TEnm modes, just not the p modes. Correct?

If it's closed at the small end, it should still support odd harmonics of p modes. Correct?

Thank you!
Todd

It would support TExx modes but they would be travelling, out the end of the device. It wouldn't be a energy store like normal closed cavities, but simply an antenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_antenna
So even though the rectagon wire dimensions are a multiple of the 2.45 ghz wavelength  the waves would still pass? I know since the magnetron is such a wide band emitter you're probably right.
Shell

No Shell, what he's saying is if the end were open, no mesh at all, it would pass through to space (air). I'm still curious to know if there is say, a stable TE010 mode in a cylinder, when the ends are open rather than closed. One that is not traveling out the end.

Probably the tolerance for such stability in a cylinder is too tight? I think if you had a cylinder with a bulge in the middle, it could trap the mode there, but otherwise there is nothing to stabilize it without both ends in place.
Todd
Your right, without anything to stop the propagation of the waves and the harmonic patterns they would just shoot out the large end. I thought he meant something like this thought experiment I drew up.

Offline rfmwguy

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Regarding resonant modes in the frustum. Would there still be resonant modes if;

1. the frustum were open on the big end only?

2. the frustum were open on both ends?

IF I understand these modes correctly, the TExx0 modes resonate with the pointing vector radial in/out-ward from the axis to the walls. It seems to me, that a cone that is open on both ends would still support the same TEnm modes, just not the p modes. Correct?

If it's closed at the small end, it should still support odd harmonics of p modes. Correct?

Thank you!
Todd

It would support TExx modes but they would be travelling, out the end of the device. It wouldn't be a energy store like normal closed cavities, but simply an antenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_antenna
So even though the rectagon wire dimensions are a multiple of the 2.45 ghz wavelength  the waves would still pass? I know since the magnetron is such a wide band emitter you're probably right.
Shell

No Shell, what he's saying is if the end were open, no mesh at all, it would pass through to space (air). I'm still curious to know if there is say, a stable TE010 mode in a cylinder, when the ends are open rather than closed. One that is not traveling out the end.

Probably the tolerance for such stability in a cylinder is too tight? I think if you had a cylinder with a bulge in the middle, it could trap the mode there, but otherwise there is nothing to stabilize it without both ends in place.
Todd
Your right, without anything to stop the propagation of the waves and the harmonic patterns they would just shoot out the large end. I thought he meant something like this thought experiment I drew up.

Nice drwg, shell...perhaps a mesh at the large end may allow a release of EM after a buildup...so little info on mesh, such as is there a "flashpoint" that radiates at a certain eV potential or does it all simply get converted to heat. Technically, mesh holes are invisible @ 2.45 GHz and you could theoretically apply infinite energy and the holes would remain invisible...melted perhaps, but invisible  ;)

Offline SeeShells

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Warp and Shell,

Pardon the plain language, its the way my brain works, math and precision language will follow (way behind I might add). There are converging ideas here I have been trying to assimilate into a theorem in my rusty scientific mind, so I'll give you my 2c (pun intended) FWIW before I start my assembly tonight.

CoM must remain in effect. Anything leaving the frustum must "push" against something (TE standing waves or TM magnetic repulsion) or be "attracted" to something (TM magnetic attraction). My vote is pushing against something, the TE component of EM.

An open cavity is a horn, a simple MW antenna, is akin to turning on the garden hose and letting it run. A cavity is a garden hose nozzle, backing up water pressure then releasing with "thrust". So I envision the frustum cavity as a nozzle, building up em back pressure.

A mechanical device resonating MW energy that pulses or leaks out under pressure, is pushing against the electromagnetic soup surrounding us...call it aether, call it what you will. In the soup, there a complex mix of EM radiation. It is thin, and whatever hits it, setting up chaotic, random standing waves, resulting in a force (see Doc's acoustic video).

So we have a vapor thin EM soup here and in the cosmos...interacting with it is no minor challenge. The frustum must generate enough kinetic energy that it disrupts the soup and pushes off if it. A montrous amount of eV energy in comparison to the background eV. Call it delta eV.

I believe the frustum is trying to to this, ratchet, burp or leak will depend on the design. Looks like the UK boys had a simple gasket, which I would call a leak method. Guess it could be a ratchet release if the "gasket" had some properties that allowed energy to build up before it was burped (flux capacitor aside ;^) )...so peaked my interest in graphene.

Regardless, as you are finalizing your paper, thought I would spew out my half-baked ideas after spending much time reading everyone's great posts here and more than a few paper on the interwebs. Good luck on the paper and sorry for the stream of consciousness...
You are right in the laws of CoM and CoE and Maxwell and... have to be observed but within those laws is a key that can unlock this issue of thrust. I was up till 3am last night reading and trying to work out this idea I have like a old dog with a bone and it's a tough bone.

In the transmission of evanescent waves (and they are around all antennas) there exists a high order force in the evanescent wave structure that carries momentum and longitudinal spin determined by the wave vector and circular polarization, respectively it is proven that these waves are not virtual and I think they can present a high order hook into the quantum vacuum providing thrust by pushing against those virtual particles.

A virtual particle in the Quantum Vacuum is a disturbance in a field that is something that is caused by the presence of other particles and their associated fields and an evanescent wave with it's high order actions can create a virtual particle and interact with it.

This is similar to Dr. Whites EMDrive generating a virtual particle jet within the cavity but not the same, as I think the effects arise from the evanescent waves and the first order forces they carry of momentum and spin in a virtual particle.

Hot tub time!

Shell


Offline SeeShells

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Your right, without anything to stop the propagation of the waves and the harmonic patterns they would just shoot out the large end. I thought he meant something like this thought experiment I drew up.

Nice drwg, shell...perhaps a mesh at the large end may allow a release of EM after a buildup...so little info on mesh, such as is there a "flashpoint" that radiates at a certain eV potential or does it all simply get converted to heat. Technically, mesh holes are invisible @ 2.45 GHz and you could theoretically apply infinite energy and the holes would remain invisible...melted perhaps, but invisible  ;)
Ahhh this isn't Myth Busters melt the end cavity antenna cap with a klystron beam. I set the spacing to be as close to the frequencies that are radiated out of the magnetron.  In the hopes to make a more defined and stronger evanescent wave shape out the back. If it melts than I mucked up.
Shell 

Offline rfmwguy

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...
You are right in the laws of CoM and CoE and Maxwell and... have to be observed but within those laws is a key that can unlock this issue of thrust. I was up till 3am last night reading and trying to work out this idea I have like a old dog with a bone and it's a tough bone.

In the transmission of evanescent waves (and they are around all antennas) there exists a high order force in the evanescent wave structure that carries momentum and longitudinal spin determined by the wave vector and circular polarization, respectively it is proven that these waves are not virtual and I think they can present a high order hook into the quantum vacuum providing thrust by pushing against those virtual particles.

A virtual particle in the Quantum Vacuum is a disturbance in a field that is something that is caused by the presence of other particles and their associated fields and an evanescent wave with it's high order actions can create a virtual particle and interact with it.

This is similar to Dr. Whites EMDrive generating a virtual particle jet within the cavity but not the same, as I think the effects arise from the evanescent waves and the first order forces they carry of momentum and spin in a virtual particle.

Hot tub time!

Shell

I am hoping you do not have a "virtual" hot tub...just sayin'  ;D

Circular evanescent waves, huh? Perhaps you should look at one of my options down the road, a 2.45 GHz helix antenna:

http://www.rcbits.com.au/files/IBC-2400-Helical95.JPG

Compact, circular polarization and 9.5dB of gain...will be a challenge at 800W to design so it won't melt, but a magnetron mounted on top, attached directly to plate and coil was going to be my fallback if I chose to continue my project at higher power levels. Since you are already at hi power, have at it!



Offline Rodal

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...IF I understand these modes correctly, the TExx0 modes resonate with the pointing vector radial in/out-ward from the axis to the walls...

TE= transverse electric mode, having an axial magnetic field
TM=transverse magnetic mode, having an axial electric field

TEmnp =

m = for a cylinder, it refers to the circumferential direction of the wave pattern
n =  for a cylinder, it refers to the polar radial direction of the wave pattern
p =  it refers to the longitudinal direction of the wave pattern


There is no such thing as a TEmn0 resonant standing wave mode in a cylinder (and much less in a truncated cone, where TMmn0,  p=0 is not allowed even for the transverse magnetic modes, while for a cylinder TMmn0 is allowed).  TEmn0 implies p=0, which means that the field is constant in the axial, longitudinal direction. 

Even for a cylinder, one must satisfy the boundary conditions for the electric and magnetic fields.

The boundary condition for the electric field is that the component of the electric field parallel to a boundary must be zero.   Therefore TEmn0 means that the circumferential component of the electric field must be zero at the end caps, and since p=0 means that the electric field must be constant, it means that the circumferential component of the electric field is zero everywhere for TEmn0.

Moreover, the boundary condition for the magnetic field is that the component of the magnetic field perpendicular to a boundary must be zero.  Therefore TEmn0 means that the longitudinal axial component of the magnetic field must be zero at the end caps, and since p=0 means that the magnetic field must be constant, it means that the longitudinal axial component of the magnetic field is zero everywhere for TEmn0.

The lowest frequency TEmnp  (non-zero-field) mode allowed in a cylinder is TE011 , which has p=1, meaning one half-wave pattern in the longitudinal (axial) direction, such that the electric field in the circumferential direction vanishes at the end caps, and thus satisfies the boundary conditions for the electric field.  (Notice that the lowest value of n allowed is n=1, similarly to satisfy the boundary conditions on the lateral, circular walls of the cavity, and that n=0 is not allowed).

____________

Notice that the cut-off condition for a waveguide for the transverse electric mode TEmn is equivalent to setting either p=0, or the cavity length (distance between end plates) equal to infinity, in the standing wave solution TEmnp for a cylindrical cavity.  Therefore talk about cut-off frequency TEmn for a cylindrical cavity (with a finite distance between end plates) standing wave TEmnp  is nonsense (since a cavity is not a waveguide, and moreover TEmn0 is not allowed as shown above).
« Last Edit: 06/27/2015 04:50 PM by Rodal »

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...
You are right in the laws of CoM and CoE and Maxwell and... have to be observed but within those laws is a key that can unlock this issue of thrust. I was up till 3am last night reading and trying to work out this idea I have like a old dog with a bone and it's a tough bone.

In the transmission of evanescent waves (and they are around all antennas) there exists a high order force in the evanescent wave structure that carries momentum and longitudinal spin determined by the wave vector and circular polarization, respectively it is proven that these waves are not virtual and I think they can present a high order hook into the quantum vacuum providing thrust by pushing against those virtual particles.

A virtual particle in the Quantum Vacuum is a disturbance in a field that is something that is caused by the presence of other particles and their associated fields and an evanescent wave with it's high order actions can create a virtual particle and interact with it.

This is similar to Dr. Whites EMDrive generating a virtual particle jet within the cavity but not the same, as I think the effects arise from the evanescent waves and the first order forces they carry of momentum and spin in a virtual particle.

Hot tub time!

Shell

I am hoping you do not have a "virtual" hot tub...just sayin'  ;D

Circular evanescent waves, huh? Perhaps you should look at one of my options down the road, a 2.45 GHz helix antenna:

http://www.rcbits.com.au/files/IBC-2400-Helical95.JPG

Compact, circular polarization and 9.5dB of gain...will be a challenge at 800W to design so it won't melt, but a magnetron mounted on top, attached directly to plate and coil was going to be my fallback if I chose to continue my project at higher power levels. Since you are already at hi power, have at it!
You know, I thought about it, but every time I looked at the potential power levels I'd have to deal with I cringed. It's just not one frequency from that malstrom from the magnetron acting on the circular polarizing antenna! Plus it needs more theory to see if it will give me anything useful.

My throwback is a simple waveguide into the side of the frustum, well maybe not that simple. ;) Not quite there yet as it's still bouncing around in hot tub thoughts.
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This is the Normalized thrust-to-power curve in the range of t < 1 period, i.e., in the Evanescent wave range, and it's inverse, which is the effective refractive index. It looks like the Permeability, B/H curve of a transformer core!
Todd

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This is the Normalized thrust-to-power curve in the range of t < 1 period, i.e., in the Evanescent wave range, and it's inverse, which is the effective refractive index. It looks like the Permeability, B/H curve of a transformer core!
Todd
That's also fairly consistent with Prof. Yang's reported thrust to power values !

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...

P.S.  A corollary thought is: if the material matters (it interacts) with respect to the flux escape, then should SeeShells' copper mesh EMDrive show increased performance in with respect to cone size and power input compared with a sheet copper EMDrive?
Not necessarily if the mesh opening is homogeneous throughout.  It may show increased peformance if:


a) no mesh opening or much smaller mesh opening on all surfaces except the small end

b) specially designed nozzle like openings at the small end in a whispering-gallery mode (which is known to enhance evanescent wave coupling) as shown in aero's movie:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=37642.0;attach=1033772

(did aero know about whispering-gallery modes enhancement of evanescent wave coupling or did he independently  think of it ?)

No, I didn't know what I was doing, just that the small model ran so quickly that I tried out dozens of possibilities, finding this result in the process. Paul March suggested
Quote
The motor boat wave interference pattern looks sort of like the wakes seen in the Feynman QM double slit experiment as found here:  https://www.iop.org/news/13/mar/page_59670.html
I myself have no real explaination.
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This is the Normalized thrust-to-power curve in the range of t < 1 period, i.e., in the Evanescent wave range, and it's inverse, which is the effective refractive index. It looks like the Permeability, B/H curve of a transformer core!
Todd
That's also fairly consistent with Prof. Yang's reported thrust to power values !
One other thought that keeps popping in and out and how the evanescent momentum and spin vectors of the wave interacting with the Quantum Vacuum virtually homogeneous ZPF is it will no longer be homogeneous due to the everanscent's wave actions on it. It will literally warp the area of space 1/3 of the wavelength (where evanescent waves form) of the microwave harmonics from the frustum and in doing so space itself warps. Will it be like the images I see with the alcubierre warp drive? Will I see a corresponding opposite effect in front of the frustum?

Shell

PS: Or am I off in left field here guys and gals and have a run away imagination?

edit: writting booboos :)
« Last Edit: 06/27/2015 05:27 PM by SeeShells »

Offline aero

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This is the Normalized thrust-to-power curve in the range of t < 1 period, i.e., in the Evanescent wave range, and it's inverse, which is the effective refractive index. It looks like the Permeability, B/H curve of a transformer core!
Todd

I have seen that first plot, or something very similar, showing evanescent superluminal momentum in a paper somewhere. Saw it months ago, even before I started my meep activities and although I've searched, I have been unable to find it again. Sorry about that, but at least I believe your plot!
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One other thought that keeps popping in and out and how the evanescent momentum and spin vectors of the wave interacting with the Quantum Vacuum virtually homogeneous ZPF is it will no longer be homogeneous due to the everanscent's wave actions on it. It will literally warp the area of space 1/3 of the wavelength (where evanescent waves form) of the microwave harmonics from the frustum and...

This corresponds to my "feeling/imagination" actually, but unfortunately I cannot form a theory either. I also feel that if nothing is spewing out then there must some kind of rotation, so I keep thinking of a helical disturbance to the truncated cone; in your design that would be like giving your pyramid a twist perhaps. :)

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This is the Normalized thrust-to-power curve in the range of t < 1 period, i.e., in the Evanescent wave range, and it's inverse, which is the effective refractive index. It looks like the Permeability, B/H curve of a transformer core!
Todd
That's also fairly consistent with Prof. Yang's reported thrust to power values !
One other thought that keeps popping in and out and how the evanescent momentum and spin vectors of the wave interacting with the Quantum Vacuum virtually homogeneous ZPF is it will no longer be homogeneous due to the everanscent's wave actions on it. It will literally warp the area of space 1/3 of the wavelength (where evanescent waves form) of the microwave harmonics from the frustum and in doing so space itself warps. Will it be like the images I see with the alcubierre warp drive? Will I see a corresponding opposite effect in front of the frustum?

Shell

PS: Or am I off in left field here guys and gals and have a run away imagination?

edit: writting booboos :)

One more thing to think about and I need to go to a garden party (oh joy).

When the EmDrive Frustum is building up its energy in the Q and from what Aero's meep videos show it tends to be localized denser within the small end. Then it collapses all that stored microwave energy towards the large end putting out increased evanescent waves with their strange momentum and spin creating virtual particles and then pushing against them. You were looking for a "burp" and how about this one?

Kind of like a WWII Buzz bomb where the engine's shutters flash open and closed?

Shell

BTW ... I keep on hearing

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