Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1805276 times)

Offline Rodal

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Areo's images in a B/W gif and color. For your viewing pleasure.
Shell

That's fantastic !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is something interesting happening at the small end of the cone

Could you please do that for the other views as well ?

Thanks so much
Sure can do them all, it will take some time. BW or Color?

See anything interesting? I see two things.
One is right after the cavity fills you see all this very interesting activity in the small end. Not sure if that's an artifact or not.
The other is the mode shape in the large end seems to ratchet as the mode shapes from the front bounce into it.
Shell

I prefer the Black and White gif movies, since we have no idea what the colors represent, they are distracting.  Even the background changes color: which doesn't make sense.



But, I also like to watch classic Black and White movies on TCM, so I maybe biased :)

////////////////////////////////////////////

@aero:

1) The most helpful thing at the moment is to get NUMBERS for what you are plotting.

What is the relative magnitude of the Ez/ z and Ez / y contour plots?

In other words, what is the relative magnitude of the asymmetric travelling wave from the antenna compared to the standing wave contour plot magnitude?


2) Need to have longer time runs, as it is not clear whether steady state has been reached or we are still looking at a transient effect
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 02:31 PM by Rodal »

Offline TheTraveller

[...
Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effort
to improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured.
This
was clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster,
where T and R cancel each other.

...

So, with the EM Drive in deep space, or at a Lagrangian point, where there are no external background forces, the EM Drive would be unable to exert a force on the spaceship and it would just sit still?

Why do you always go to the extreme point?

There is ALWAYS vibration in any ship. Pumps, motors, compressors, etc. If needed simple to rig up a vibrator to kick things off.

If you tell the design engineer it needs an external vibrators source at switch on, no problems. Gets designed into the EMDrive support systems.

Wait. Did you just say that they have to smack it with a hammer to get it to work?

Maybe fit it with it's own personal vibrator?
Just to get things going?
Buzzzzz..........
ENGAGE
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 02:26 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline rfmwguy

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I must say, I enjoy the infrequent, random attacks of humor...keeps us from taking things too seriously all the time  8)

Offline SeeShells

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T animation in Color.
Shell

Offline Rodal

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On Google Chrome the T animation works fine in color (if one clicks the image). I cannot get the B&W T animation to work on Google Chrome.  It freezes.

The pattern  (for the color animation) never settles down to the symmetric standing wave TE11 pattern (it wants to, but the peak that should be at the center, is instead to the left):




wonder whether this is due to not reaching steady-state yet (not enough finite difference time steps have been marched) or whether it is the asymmetric effect of the antenna that is never going to dissapear

////////////////

One can see the fractal artifact due to the discrete Finite Difference mesh: the fractal artifact is all over at the beginning but it disappears after a while and the fractal artifact only persists at the circular boundary (due to the difficulty of the finite difference mesh to satisfy the boundary conditions on a circular boundary using a Cartesian coordinate system: the Boundary Conditions are only satisfied at the finite difference mesh gridpoints)
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 03:02 PM by Rodal »

Offline aero

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Areo's images in a B/W gif and color. For your viewing pleasure.
Shell

Care to share your frustum dimensions and Rf frequency so I can run a few tests?

From my experience working with the Calculator your small diameter is way too small to support resonance but I would like to run the numbers. Will give you the data.

Big Dia. 0.27246 m
small dia 0.068115 m
length 0.4890240258
freq. 2.14497829E+009 Hz

Pardon all the digits. Big dia. was measured, the other two calculated from big dia and 0.25.
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline Rodal

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Areo's images in a B/W gif and color. For your viewing pleasure.
Shell

Care to share your frustum dimensions and Rf frequency so I can run a few tests?

From my experience working with the Calculator your small diameter is way too small to support resonance but I would like to run the numbers. Will give you the data.

Big Dia. 0.27246 m
small dia 0.068115 m
length 0.4890240258
freq. 2.14497829E+009 Hz

Pardon all the digits. Big dia. was measured, the other two calculated from big dia and 0.25.

I thought that the excitation frequency was 1.95 GHz., and that this was the electric excitation case shown in your message below.  Did something else change from the 1.95 GHz case, and if so why?

The freq. 2.14497829E+009 Hz frequency was not mentioned in your message below.
If MEEP finds a frequency at 2.08402579E+009 Hz, why don't you mention that one?

@Rodal - I have:
 BIG DIAMETER = 0.27246 m
 SMALL DIAMETER = 0.068115 m
 LENGTH =  0.4890240258390259 m
Pardon the extra digits from the calculation.

Running in 3-D with bandwidth opened up to 0.5 * drive frequency (drive = ~1.95GHz), Meep finds 4 frequencies:
1.58530024E+009
1.83409637E+009
2.08402579E+009
2.33698507E+009 Hz
 Q - in order
620.675008923
133.4147313913
1211.3296422825
141.0133154386

This is electric excitation with antenna = 0.2 * wavelength, perpendicular to and centered on the central axis of rotation.


OK - I just read the rest of your post. I'll look for the location of the antenna in the Brady cone, and put it there. But as I recall, that was for exciting a TM mode?

« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 03:21 PM by Rodal »

Offline SeeShells

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On Google Chrome the T animation works fine in color (if one clicks the image). I cannot get the B&W T animation to work on Google Chrome.  It freezes.

The pattern  (for the color animation) never settles down to the symmetric standing wave TE11 pattern (it wants to, but the peak that should be at the center, is instead to the left):




wonder whether this is due to not reaching steady-state yet (not enough finite difference time steps have been marched) or whether it is the asymmetric effect of the antenna that is never going to dissapear

////////////////

One can see the fractal artifact due to the discrete Finite Difference mesh: the fractal artifact is all over at the beginning but it disappears after a while and the fractal artifact only persists at the circular boundary (due to the difficulty of the finite difference mesh to satisfy the boundary conditions on a circular boundary using a Cartesian coordinate system: the Boundary Conditions are only satisfied at the finite difference mesh gridpoints)
It looks like the mode tries to stabilize in the center but the wave energy from the antenna migrating from the side antenna mount pushes and deforms it into the side walls.

I can only watch this a couple of times before I want to get my hip huggers, tie dye t-shirts and platform shoes out again. :) 

Offline rfmwguy

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On Google Chrome the T animation works fine in color (if one clicks the image). I cannot get the B&W T animation to work on Google Chrome.  It freezes.

The pattern  (for the color animation) never settles down to the symmetric standing wave TE11 pattern (it wants to, but the peak that should be at the center, is instead to the left):




wonder whether this is due to not reaching steady-state yet (not enough finite difference time steps have been marched) or whether it is the asymmetric effect of the antenna that is never going to dissapear

////////////////

One can see the fractal artifact due to the discrete Finite Difference mesh: the fractal artifact is all over at the beginning but it disappears after a while and the fractal artifact only persists at the circular boundary (due to the difficulty of the finite difference mesh to satisfy the boundary conditions on a circular boundary using a Cartesian coordinate system: the Boundary Conditions are only satisfied at the finite difference mesh gridpoints)
It looks like the mode tries to stabilize in the center but the wave energy from the antenna migrating from the side antenna mount pushes and deforms it into the side walls.

I can only watch this a couple of times before I want to get my hip huggers, tie dye t-shirts and platform shoes out again. :)

Shell, what is your guess at the best antenna placement, centralized along longitudinal axis? 1/4 up from big end? 1/4 up from small? midway? Polarity perpendicular to longitudinal axis?

I can locate my antenna anywhere, just thought I'd ask you and others opinion about 1st locale.

Offline Rodal

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On Google Chrome the T animation works fine in color (if one clicks the image). I cannot get the B&W T animation to work on Google Chrome.  It freezes.

The pattern  (for the color animation) never settles down to the symmetric standing wave TE11 pattern (it wants to, but the peak that should be at the center, is instead to the left):




wonder whether this is due to not reaching steady-state yet (not enough finite difference time steps have been marched) or whether it is the asymmetric effect of the antenna that is never going to dissapear

////////////////

One can see the fractal artifact due to the discrete Finite Difference mesh: the fractal artifact is all over at the beginning but it disappears after a while and the fractal artifact only persists at the circular boundary (due to the difficulty of the finite difference mesh to satisfy the boundary conditions on a circular boundary using a Cartesian coordinate system: the Boundary Conditions are only satisfied at the finite difference mesh gridpoints)
It looks like the mode tries to stabilize in the center but the wave energy from the antenna migrating from the side antenna mount pushes and deforms it into the side walls.

I can only watch this a couple of times before I want to get my hip huggers, tie dye t-shirts and platform shoes out again. :)

Shell, what is your guess at the best antenna placement, centralized along longitudinal axis? 1/4 up from big end? 1/4 up from small? midway? Polarity perpendicular to longitudinal axis?

I can locate my antenna anywhere, just thought I'd ask you and others opinion about 1st locale.

It seems like placing the antenna along the longitudinal axis of symmetry would ensure transverse symmetry.  I don't see why doing this would harm any thrust force (if there is any), and being off axis would be detrimental.

As to the optimal location on the longitudinal axis (how close to the big base) that depends on the mode shape excited, which depends on the frequency and the geometrical shape of the frustum.  One would have to run separate MEEP runs with the antenna in different locations for your geometry, to see where it maximizes the amplitude of the mode shape.

The mode shapes do NOT have  equi-wavelength along the axis (take a gander at my report, the wave pattern is NOT sinusoidal), the half-wavelength increases towards the small base, hence optimal placement of the antenna is not trivial.
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 03:48 PM by Rodal »

Offline rfmwguy

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On Google Chrome the T animation works fine in color (if one clicks the image). I cannot get the B&W T animation to work on Google Chrome.  It freezes.

The pattern  (for the color animation) never settles down to the symmetric standing wave TE11 pattern (it wants to, but the peak that should be at the center, is instead to the left):




wonder whether this is due to not reaching steady-state yet (not enough finite difference time steps have been marched) or whether it is the asymmetric effect of the antenna that is never going to dissapear

////////////////

One can see the fractal artifact due to the discrete Finite Difference mesh: the fractal artifact is all over at the beginning but it disappears after a while and the fractal artifact only persists at the circular boundary (due to the difficulty of the finite difference mesh to satisfy the boundary conditions on a circular boundary using a Cartesian coordinate system: the Boundary Conditions are only satisfied at the finite difference mesh gridpoints)
It looks like the mode tries to stabilize in the center but the wave energy from the antenna migrating from the side antenna mount pushes and deforms it into the side walls.

I can only watch this a couple of times before I want to get my hip huggers, tie dye t-shirts and platform shoes out again. :)

Shell, what is your guess at the best antenna placement, centralized along longitudinal axis? 1/4 up from big end? 1/4 up from small? midway? Polarity perpendicular to longitudinal axis?

I can locate my antenna anywhere, just thought I'd ask you and others opinion about 1st locale.

It seems like placing the antenna along the longitudinal axis of symmetry would ensure transverse symmetry.  I don't see why doing this would harm any thrust force (if there is any), and being off axis would be detrimental.

As to the optimal location on the longitudinal axis (how close to the big base) that depends on the mode shape excited, which depends on the frequency and the geometrical shape of the frustum.  One would have to run separate MEEP runs with the antenna in different locations for your geometry, to see where it maximizes the amplitude of the mode shape.

The mode shapes do NOT have  equi-wavelength along the axis (take a gander at my report, the wave pattern is NOT sinusoidal), the half-wavelength increases towards the small base, hence optimal placement of the antenna is not trivial.

0.158750 sd
0.279654 bd
0.251714 L
2.450 ghz

if anyone would be so kind as to meep me...

Offline Notsosureofit

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On Google Chrome the T animation works fine in color (if one clicks the image). I cannot get the B&W T animation to work on Google Chrome.  It freezes.

The pattern  (for the color animation) never settles down to the symmetric standing wave TE11 pattern (it wants to, but the peak that should be at the center, is instead to the left):




wonder whether this is due to not reaching steady-state yet (not enough finite difference time steps have been marched) or whether it is the asymmetric effect of the antenna that is never going to dissapear

////////////////

One can see the fractal artifact due to the discrete Finite Difference mesh: the fractal artifact is all over at the beginning but it disappears after a while and the fractal artifact only persists at the circular boundary (due to the difficulty of the finite difference mesh to satisfy the boundary conditions on a circular boundary using a Cartesian coordinate system: the Boundary Conditions are only satisfied at the finite difference mesh gridpoints)

Unless Meep includes a finite Q value, my guess is it will never reach equilibrium.  That happens when the antenna field matches the cavity field.

Offline SeeShells

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Shell, what is your guess at the best antenna placement, centralized along longitudinal axis? 1/4 up from big end? 1/4 up from small? midway? Polarity perpendicular to longitudinal axis?

I can locate my antenna anywhere, just thought I'd ask you and others opinion about 1st locale.
Center axis, 1/4 wave from small end and perpendicular. I wish you could model a loop but I know meep doesn't have that option. grrr ;) This is the first placement in my testing I'm going to try with extended Rodal's dimensions and shallow angle.

Shell 

Offline Rodal

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Shell, what is your guess at the best antenna placement, centralized along longitudinal axis? 1/4 up from big end? 1/4 up from small? midway? Polarity perpendicular to longitudinal axis?

I can locate my antenna anywhere, just thought I'd ask you and others opinion about 1st locale.
Center axis, 1/4 wave from small end and perpendicular. I wish you could model a loop but I know meep doesn't have that option. grrr ;) This is the first placement in my testing I'm going to try with extended Rodal's dimensions and shallow angle.

Shell

Shell, I don't know what Rodal's dimensions are :) , as Rodal is a dimensionless variable.

Suggest you provide us with temptative dimensions so that we can analyze your frustum:

Inscribed Big Hexagon Diameter=
Circumscribed Big Hexagon Diameter=

Inscribed Smallest Hexagon Diameter=
Circumscribed Smallest Hexagon Diameter=

Longitudinal distance between flat hexagonal faces =

(measured perpendicular to the flat faces)

Offline deuteragenie

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Areo's images in a B/W gif and color. For your viewing pleasure.
Shell

Care to share your frustum dimensions and Rf frequency so I can run a few tests?

From my experience working with the Calculator your small diameter is way too small to support resonance but I would like to run the numbers. Will give you the data.

Big Dia. 0.27246 m
small dia 0.068115 m
length 0.4890240258
freq. 2.14497829E+009 Hz

Pardon all the digits. Big dia. was measured, the other two calculated from big dia and 0.25.

Would be good to have the fluxes near the small end computed and charted. 
The Meep tutorial has a section on that topic.

Also:
- ffmpeg is your friend to create nice mp4s
- It looks like the timestep is a bit to big, as the frames "jump" too fast to the next state
- It would be good if you could post the .ctl file on google drive together with the images/videos.  This way we will know what was the basis for creating the result.

Sorry to ask so much :)

Offline SeeShells

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Shell, what is your guess at the best antenna placement, centralized along longitudinal axis? 1/4 up from big end? 1/4 up from small? midway? Polarity perpendicular to longitudinal axis?

I can locate my antenna anywhere, just thought I'd ask you and others opinion about 1st locale.
Center axis, 1/4 wave from small end and perpendicular. I wish you could model a loop but I know meep doesn't have that option. grrr ;) This is the first placement in my testing I'm going to try with extended Rodal's dimensions and shallow angle.

Shell

Shell, I don't know what Rodal's dimensions are :) , as Rodal is a dimensionless variable.

Suggest you provide us with temptative dimensions so that we can analyze your frustum:

Inscribed Big Hexagon Diameter=
Circumscribed Big Hexagon Diameter=

Inscribed Smallest Hexagon Diameter=
Circumscribed Smallest Hexagon Diameter=

Longitudinal distance between flat hexagonal faces =

(measured perpendicular to the flat faces)
I've no problem with it give me a little time to pull it from the cad, as I have company coming over in a few mins.

And I wonder what does Dr. Rodal think... 2.45Ghz magnetron, hint need the widest part of the bottom hexagon to be a multiple of that and...
gotta go bbl

Shell

Offline aero

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On Google Chrome the T animation works fine in color (if one clicks the image). I cannot get the B&W T animation to work on Google Chrome.  It freezes.

The pattern  (for the color animation) never settles down to the symmetric standing wave TE11 pattern (it wants to, but the peak that should be at the center, is instead to the left):




wonder whether this is due to not reaching steady-state yet (not enough finite difference time steps have been marched) or whether it is the asymmetric effect of the antenna that is never going to dissapear

////////////////

One can see the fractal artifact due to the discrete Finite Difference mesh: the fractal artifact is all over at the beginning but it disappears after a while and the fractal artifact only persists at the circular boundary (due to the difficulty of the finite difference mesh to satisfy the boundary conditions on a circular boundary using a Cartesian coordinate system: the Boundary Conditions are only satisfied at the finite difference mesh gridpoints)
It looks like the mode tries to stabilize in the center but the wave energy from the antenna migrating from the side antenna mount pushes and deforms it into the side walls.

I can only watch this a couple of times before I want to get my hip huggers, tie dye t-shirts and platform shoes out again. :)

Shell, what is your guess at the best antenna placement, centralized along longitudinal axis? 1/4 up from big end? 1/4 up from small? midway? Polarity perpendicular to longitudinal axis?

I can locate my antenna anywhere, just thought I'd ask you and others opinion about 1st locale.

It seems like placing the antenna along the longitudinal axis of symmetry would ensure transverse symmetry.  I don't see why doing this would harm any thrust force (if there is any), and being off axis would be detrimental.

As to the optimal location on the longitudinal axis (how close to the big base) that depends on the mode shape excited, which depends on the frequency and the geometrical shape of the frustum.  One would have to run separate MEEP runs with the antenna in different locations for your geometry, to see where it maximizes the amplitude of the mode shape.

The mode shapes do NOT have  equi-wavelength along the axis (take a gander at my report, the wave pattern is NOT sinusoidal), the half-wavelength increases towards the small base, hence optimal placement of the antenna is not trivial.

0.158750 sd
0.279654 bd
0.251714 L
2.450 ghz

if anyone would be so kind as to meep me...

Does this look like your cavity?
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline rfmwguy

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On Google Chrome the T animation works fine in color (if one clicks the image). I cannot get the B&W T animation to work on Google Chrome.  It freezes.

The pattern  (for the color animation) never settles down to the symmetric standing wave TE11 pattern (it wants to, but the peak that should be at the center, is instead to the left):




wonder whether this is due to not reaching steady-state yet (not enough finite difference time steps have been marched) or whether it is the asymmetric effect of the antenna that is never going to dissapear

////////////////

One can see the fractal artifact due to the discrete Finite Difference mesh: the fractal artifact is all over at the beginning but it disappears after a while and the fractal artifact only persists at the circular boundary (due to the difficulty of the finite difference mesh to satisfy the boundary conditions on a circular boundary using a Cartesian coordinate system: the Boundary Conditions are only satisfied at the finite difference mesh gridpoints)
It looks like the mode tries to stabilize in the center but the wave energy from the antenna migrating from the side antenna mount pushes and deforms it into the side walls.

I can only watch this a couple of times before I want to get my hip huggers, tie dye t-shirts and platform shoes out again. :)

Shell, what is your guess at the best antenna placement, centralized along longitudinal axis? 1/4 up from big end? 1/4 up from small? midway? Polarity perpendicular to longitudinal axis?

I can locate my antenna anywhere, just thought I'd ask you and others opinion about 1st locale.

It seems like placing the antenna along the longitudinal axis of symmetry would ensure transverse symmetry.  I don't see why doing this would harm any thrust force (if there is any), and being off axis would be detrimental.

As to the optimal location on the longitudinal axis (how close to the big base) that depends on the mode shape excited, which depends on the frequency and the geometrical shape of the frustum.  One would have to run separate MEEP runs with the antenna in different locations for your geometry, to see where it maximizes the amplitude of the mode shape.

The mode shapes do NOT have  equi-wavelength along the axis (take a gander at my report, the wave pattern is NOT sinusoidal), the half-wavelength increases towards the small base, hence optimal placement of the antenna is not trivial.

0.158750 sd
0.279654 bd
0.251714 L
2.450 ghz

if anyone would be so kind as to meep me...

Does this look like your cavity?

Bingo! Thanks!

Offline aero

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@Rodal

1- The frequency for the Brady-Rodal cavity, 2.14 GHz, was set for resonance. It resonates at a different frequency than does the Brady cavity, 1.95 GHz.

2- The output from the Meep runs depends on what I ask for in the control file. I have been asking for Ez, the z component of the electromagnetic field within the cavity. What the images show is the Ez component of the electromagnetic field as viewed from the x, y, and z directions. At any given time step you are viewing exactly the same field, just from a different angle.

The complete electromagnetic field, EMF = Ex + Ey + Ez + Hx + Hy + Hz as I understand it. These field components are output in Meep (Natural) units which assumes the speed lf light equals 1, and the distance scale factor equals 0.3 meters. Converting to SI units is not so meaningful in absolute terms as Meep automatically controls the drive power by some unknown means and the manuals don't clarify how. The Manuals do suggest that the Amplitude can be changed to calculate relative field strengths. That is two runs with MatLab data reduction.

If you want to see the complete E field, Ex + Ey + Ez, I believe I could output all of them from the same run, (same for H). They would be in their own individual files so again that would require some MatLab data combining and reduction in order to see viable results.

In any case you need to describe in detail what you want to see, then put it somewhere so that it won't get lost in the back thread as pages of posts are added here. Requests for information scattered throughout this very long thread just get lost as I don't have the time, skills or motivation to consolidate them into something meaningful.
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 05:36 PM by aero »
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I'd like to try this right or wrong. (still have company and they think I'm and little driven and somewhat nuts.) :)
THANKS!!!

d = a * √ 4 + 2 * √2
e = a * ( 1 + √ 2 )
f = a * √ 2 + √2
p = 8 * a
A = 2 * a * ( 1 + √2 )
re = a / 2 * √ 4 + 2 * √2
ri = a / 2 * ( 1 + √2 )

Large End
Edge length (a):0.094         
Long diagonal (d):0.2446   
Medium diagonal (e):0.226      
Short diagonal (f):0.173
Perimeter (p):0.749
Area (A):0.042
Excircle radius (re):0.122   
Incircle radius (ri):0.113

Small End
Edge length (a):0.047         
Long diagonal (d):0.1223   
Medium diagonal (e):0.113      
Short diagonal (f):0.086   
Perimeter (p):0.374   
Area (A):0.011   
Excircle radius (re):0.061   
Incircle radius (ri):0.056

Longitudinal distance between plates
0.4892

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