Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1796943 times)

Online Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5833
  • USA
  • Liked: 5900
  • Likes Given: 5248
[...
Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effort
to improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured.
This
was clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster,
where T and R cancel each other.

...

So, with the EM Drive in deep space, or at a Lagrangian point, where there are no external background forces, the EM Drive would be unable to exert a force on the spaceship and it would just sit still?

Offline TheTraveller

[...
Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effort
to improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured.
This
was clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster,
where T and R cancel each other.

...

So, with the EM Drive in deep space, or at a Lagrangian point, where there are no external background forces, the EM Drive would be unable to exert a force on the spaceship and it would just sit still?

Why do you always go to the extreme point?

There is ALWAYS vibration in any ship. Pumps, motors, compressors, etc. If needed simple to rig up a vibrator to kick things off.

If you tell the design engineer it needs an external vibrators source at switch on, no problems. Gets designed into the EMDrive support systems.
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 01:43 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline rfmwguy

  • EmDrive Builder (retired)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2165
  • Liked: 2681
  • Likes Given: 1124
A warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:


Quote
we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generated
by a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probably
operates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall into
this category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the force
necessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency
(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus the
interaction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situation
cannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken in
order to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflicting
reports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sources
presented in this paper.   

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.02689.pdf

The discussion in the previous pages that "the EM Drive" needs some vibration to operate, makes one wonder about the EM Drive measurements that relied on scales.

I agree Doc, which is why I will start with a fulcrum balance first then move to a digital scale. Think Shell is going to do the same thing as a cross-check. Torsion testing not in my plans, IOW, no induced mechanical force...I'm looking for momentum from a static, cold-start up. There may be none, which could be very telling.
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 01:46 PM by rfmwguy »

Online Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5833
  • USA
  • Liked: 5900
  • Likes Given: 5248
[...
Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effort
to improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured.
This
was clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster,
where T and R cancel each other.

...



So, with the EM Drive in deep space, or at a Lagrangian point, where there are no external background forces, the EM Drive would be unable to exert a force on the spaceship and it would just sit still?

Why do you always go to the extreme point?

There is ALWAYS vibration in any ship. Pumps, motors, compressors, etc. If needed simple to rig up a vibrator to kick things off.

Easy fix.
So, internal to the Spaceship vibration forces from Pumps, motors, compressors,  or a vibrator in the spaceship are, according to you, what Shawyer means to be "background" forces that will enable an EM Drive to exert its force on the center of mass of the spaceship?

I thought that Shawyer was referring to external forces as "background forces" (forces external to the spaceship)
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 01:44 PM by Rodal »

Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2324
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 2952
  • Likes Given: 2586
A warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:


Quote
we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generated
by a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probably
operates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall into
this category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the force
necessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency
(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus the
interaction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situation
cannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken in
order to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflicting
reports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sources
presented in this paper.   

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.02689.pdf

The discussion in the previous pages that "the EM Drive" needs some vibration to operate, makes one wonder about the EM Drive measurements that relied on scales.
I could not agree more on that! I'm glad that my scales will be at the other end of the fulcrum, have to worry about a slight bending moment of the beam but for the forces trying to be measured it's very small, plus there still will be the laser on the beam.
Shell

Offline TheTraveller

A warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:


Quote
we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generated
by a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probably
operates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall into
this category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the force
necessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency
(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus the
interaction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situation
cannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken in
order to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflicting
reports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sources
presented in this paper.   

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.02689.pdf

The discussion in the previous pages that "the EM Drive" needs some vibration to operate, makes one wonder about the EM Drive measurements that relied on scales.

I agree Doc, which is why I will start with a fulcrum balance first then move to a digital scale. Think Shell is going to do the same thing as a cross-check. Torsion testing not in my plans, IOW, no induced mechanical force...I'm looking for momentum from a static, cold-start up. Their may be none, which could be very telling.

You can always lightly tap the big end.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline TheTraveller

A warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:


Quote
we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generated
by a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probably
operates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall into
this category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the force
necessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency
(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus the
interaction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situation
cannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken in
order to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflicting
reports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sources
presented in this paper.   

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.02689.pdf

The discussion in the previous pages that "the EM Drive" needs some vibration to operate, makes one wonder about the EM Drive measurements that relied on scales.
I could not agree more on that! I'm glad that my scales will be at the other end of the fulcrum, have to worry about a slight bending moment of the beam but for the forces trying to be measured it's very small, plus there still will be the laser on the beam.
Shell

People,

Micro vibration is everywhere. Need to do very special isolation builds to try to eliminate it. Now that you know what SPR experienced, there should not be an issue. Vibration is your friend.

Of course you need to put the EMDrive in a Faraday Cage. Here is one Roger Shawyer used with his 1st Experimental EMDrive. Nice balance beam.

He did test this EMDrive pointing up, down and sideways to test for EMC interference.
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 01:51 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Online Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5833
  • USA
  • Liked: 5900
  • Likes Given: 5248
A warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:


Quote
we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generated
by a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probably
operates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall into
this category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the force
necessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency
(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus the
interaction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situation
cannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken in
order to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflicting
reports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sources
presented in this paper.   

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.02689.pdf

The discussion in the previous pages that "the EM Drive" needs some vibration to operate, makes one wonder about the EM Drive measurements that relied on scales.
I could not agree more on that! I'm glad that my scales will be at the other end of the fulcrum, have to worry about a slight bending moment of the beam but for the forces trying to be measured it's very small, plus there still will be the laser on the beam.
Shell

People,

Micro vibration is everywhere. Need to do very special isolation builds to try to eliminate it. Now that you know what SPR experienced, there should not be an issue. Vibration is your friend.
Does the amplitude and frequency of this mechanical vibration make any difference in how friendly it is to the EM Drive?

Is a particular amplitude and frequency of mechanical vibration more friendly to the EM Drive?

Is a particular amplitude and frequency of mechanical vibration the foe of the EM Drive?

Or is the EM Drive an equal opportunity friend to all magnitudes of amplitude and frequency of mechanical vibration?
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 01:56 PM by Rodal »

Offline TiagoFreitas

  • Member
  • Posts: 2
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
All this talk of vibration increasing the effects reminded me of the Podkletnov experiment.

"when the disc was accelerating due to the AC field, but not spinning, objects above the disc lost 0.05%-0.06% of their weight. When they spun the disc at 5000 rpm they noticed a larger weight loss of 0.6-2%. The greatest weight loss occured when they slowed the disc to 3000-3300 rpm and it visibly vibrated."

http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-podkletnov-effect.html

Another thing is, in the KML build it seemed to affect gravity around it, just like in the Podkletnov experiment.

Could it be that the emdrive is firing Unruh waves and making matter around it less responsive to gravity, similar to what Mike McCulloch suggested?

Offline TheTraveller

[...
Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effort
to improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured.
This
was clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster,
where T and R cancel each other.

...



So, with the EM Drive in deep space, or at a Lagrangian point, where there are no external background forces, the EM Drive would be unable to exert a force on the spaceship and it would just sit still?

Why do you always go to the extreme point?

There is ALWAYS vibration in any ship. Pumps, motors, compressors, etc. If needed simple to rig up a vibrator to kick things off.

Easy fix.
So, internal to the Spaceship vibration forces from Pumps, motors, compressors,  or a vibrator in the spaceship are, according to you, what Shawyer means to be "background" forces that will enable an EM Drive to exert its force on the center of mass of the spaceship?

I thought that Shawyer was referring to external forces as "background forces" (forces external to the spaceship)

In deep space, what external forces outside the ship would cause the equipment to have vibratory / background movements?

Also refer to his statement about their effort to reduce noise / improve resolution

Quote
Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effort to improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured. This was clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster, where T and R cancel each other.
UK flight thruster measurements employ this principle to calibrate the background noise on the force balance prior to carrying out force measurements.

Just maybe EW will get better Force generation if they add a bit of background vibration?
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 01:59 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2324
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 2952
  • Likes Given: 2586
Areo's images in a B/W gif and color. For your viewing pleasure.
Shell

Online Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5833
  • USA
  • Liked: 5900
  • Likes Given: 5248
All this talk of vibration increasing the effects reminded me of the Podkletnov experiment.

"when the disc was accelerating due to the AC field, but not spinning, objects above the disc lost 0.05%-0.06% of their weight. When they spun the disc at 5000 rpm they noticed a larger weight loss of 0.6-2%. The greatest weight loss occured when they slowed the disc to 3000-3300 rpm and it visibly vibrated."

http://physicsfromtheedge.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-podkletnov-effect.html

Another thing is, in the KML build it seemed to affect gravity around it, just like in the Podkletnov experiment.

Could it be that the emdrive is firing Unruh waves and making matter around it less responsive to gravity, similar to what Mike McCulloch suggested?
Occam's razor:  the mechanical vibration affects the experimental readings, which are experimental artifacts, rather than these vibrations being responsible for Black Hole Unruh radiation or making matter less responsive to gravity.

Online Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5833
  • USA
  • Liked: 5900
  • Likes Given: 5248
Areo's images in a B/W gif and color. For your viewing pleasure.
Shell

That's fantastic !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is something interesting happening at the small end of the cone

Could you please do that for the other views as well ?

Thanks so much
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 02:03 PM by Rodal »

Offline rfmwguy

  • EmDrive Builder (retired)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2165
  • Liked: 2681
  • Likes Given: 1124
A warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:


Quote
(...)

I agree Doc, which is why I will start with a fulcrum balance first then move to a digital scale. Think Shell is going to do the same thing as a cross-check. Torsion testing not in my plans, IOW, no induced mechanical force...I'm looking for momentum from a static, cold-start up. Their may be none, which could be very telling.

You can always lightly tap the big end.

No induced inertia is my plan. If this engine is really an engine, it won't need any. Minimize variables, Mr T, is the approach I'm taking. It may fail...I can deal with that.

Offline TheTraveller

Areo's images in a B/W gif and color. For your viewing pleasure.
Shell

Care to share your frustum dimensions and Rf frequency so I can run a few tests?

From my experience working with the Calculator your small diameter is way too small to support resonance but I would like to run the numbers. Will give you the data.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline Mike-F

  • Member
  • Posts: 4
  • England
  • Liked: 7
  • Likes Given: 0
A warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:


Quote
we have demonstrated that periodical vibrations, in our case generated
by a spinning body, can significantly influence the readout of the scale, which probably
operates based on an active feedback loop. The majority of electronic scales would fall into
this category, since they use an electromagnetic feedback loop in order to determine the force
necessary to counter the weight of a test mass. This feedback loop has a defined frequency
(which is mostly a trade secret of the production companies) for any specific state. Thus the
interaction of these two frequencies can lead to measurement errors. In case this situation
cannot be avoided in a measurement, we advise that proper precautions should be taken in
order to decouple the vibration sources. Finally we conclude that the reason for the conflicting
reports of the mass measurements of spinning gyroscopes was due to the error sources
presented in this paper.   

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1506/1506.02689.pdf

The discussion in the previous pages that "the EM Drive" needs some vibration to operate, makes one wonder about the EM Drive measurements that relied on scales.

I agree Doc, which is why I will start with a fulcrum balance first then move to a digital scale. Think Shell is going to do the same thing as a cross-check. Torsion testing not in my plans, IOW, no induced mechanical force...I'm looking for momentum from a static, cold-start up. Their may be none, which could be very telling.

You can always lightly tap the big end.


Ring laser gyros use and ultrasonic transducer to avoid phase locking, this vibrates the cavity at around 400Hz
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_laser_gyroscope)

Offline TheTraveller

A warnning on the detrimental effect of vibrations on scales, for people using scales to measure the EM Drive force, (as done for example by Shawyer), on Tajmar's paper:


Quote
(...)

I agree Doc, which is why I will start with a fulcrum balance first then move to a digital scale. Think Shell is going to do the same thing as a cross-check. Torsion testing not in my plans, IOW, no induced mechanical force...I'm looking for momentum from a static, cold-start up. Their may be none, which could be very telling.

You can always lightly tap the big end.

No induced inertia is my plan. If this engine is really an engine, it won't need any. Minimize variables, Mr T, is the approach I'm taking. It may fail...I can deal with that.

Shawyer is very clear the EMDrive has 3 modes.

1) Do nothing as no external forces.

2) Go into Motor mode is tapped on the big end.

3) Go into Generator mode if tapped on the small end.

But you may have enough micro vibrations to trigger Force generation all by itself. Point being is a good idea to lightly tap it on the big end to ensure the EMDrive is in Motor mode.
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 02:07 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline SeeShells

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2324
  • Every action there's a reaction we try to grasp.
  • United States
  • Liked: 2952
  • Likes Given: 2586
Areo's images in a B/W gif and color. For your viewing pleasure.
Shell

That's fantastic !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is something interesting happening at the small end of the cone

Could you please do that for the other views as well ?

Thanks so much
Sure can do them all, it will take some time. BW or Color?

See anything interesting? I see two things.
One is right after the cavity fills you see all this very interesting activity in the small end. Not sure if that's an artifact or not.
The other is the mode shape in the large end seems to ratchet as the mode shapes from the front bounce into it.
Shell

Offline TiagoFreitas

  • Member
  • Posts: 2
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Agree, but in both the Podkletnov experiment's with objects above the disc and KML build ceramic tiles, the disc/emdrive was physically separated from the scale and the objects on it, and the effects were greater when there was vibration.

How is the vibration affecting the scale in these 2 cases if it's isolated?
It can be increasing some asymmetry in the disc/emdrive and not the scale, just a possibility.

Occam's razor:  the mechanical vibration affects the experimental readings, which are experimental artifacts, rather than these vibrations being responsible for Black Hole Unruh radiation or making matter less responsive to gravity.
« Last Edit: 06/24/2015 02:15 PM by TiagoFreitas »

Offline sghill

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1296
  • United States
  • Liked: 1426
  • Likes Given: 1968
[...
Indeed, in the UK when the background force changes were eliminated, in an effort
to improve force measurement resolution, no EmDrive force was measured.
This
was clearly a result of attempting to measure the forces on a fully static thruster,
where T and R cancel each other.

...

So, with the EM Drive in deep space, or at a Lagrangian point, where there are no external background forces, the EM Drive would be unable to exert a force on the spaceship and it would just sit still?

Why do you always go to the extreme point?

There is ALWAYS vibration in any ship. Pumps, motors, compressors, etc. If needed simple to rig up a vibrator to kick things off.

If you tell the design engineer it needs an external vibrators source at switch on, no problems. Gets designed into the EMDrive support systems.

Wait. Did you just say that they have to smack it with a hammer to get it to work?

Bring the thunder Elon!

Tags: