Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1876214 times)

Offline Rodal

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I remember there being some conversation earlier in this thread about whether or not Boeing was conducting Emdrive research in secret.  This aviation week article, from Nov 5th 2012, has a direct quote from a Boeig representative:  http://aviationweek.com/awin/propellentless-space-propulsion-research-continues

Quote
There has been little interest in the EmDrive in the West so far, and Shawyer's government funding has ended. Boeing's Phantom Works, which has previously explored exotic forms of space propulsion, was said to be looking into it some years ago. Such work has evidently ceased. “Phantom Works is not working with Mr. Shawyer,” a Boeing representative says, adding that the company is no longer pursuing this avenue.

So I think it is safe to put to bed the idea that Boeing is working on the Emdrive.  Sorry if this has been posted before.

Thank you for putting this issue to bed, as it keeps coming back and some people talk about "Boeing going dark" while the news you just disclosed actually sound like Boeing just turned off the lights on the project and they clearly state that such works has ceased.   From the article it sounds like Boeing was disappointed with the Flight Thruster, as they stopped working with Shawyer.  Furthermore they add that "they are not longer pursuing this avenue."

Who knows more about what Boeing is doing or not doing, and can speak more authoritatively on this subject than Boeing themselves?  If they would have gone dark, all they had to do is refuse to speak to Aviation Week, and keep silent on the subject.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2015 07:05 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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I have now uploaded the complete set of all of the data slices in the 3 coordinate directions for the ez run. The link is here and I think I've solved the sharing problem so that all you should need is this link.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tfjVmb1RiZXpaajd6WGpGQmpSWDkxRlV3cG10TEJmWVVEbTd2U0t4MC1aa1E&usp=sharing
...
I hope the additional data will help answer your concerns and apologize for not posting it earlier. I thought that I had an error somewhere so withheld it.

Unfortunately Meep does not provide spherical coordinates.

The data most interesting to me is Ez on the plane perpendicular to the z axis, the plane with x and y Cartesian coordinates.  It is evident from the pictures that the electric field is very low (zero a lot of the time in most of the area).  Although low, these pictures may hold the key to the measured thrust, because, as we know, standing waves cannot produce thrust, but the images on Ez / z show the travelling waves from the antenna, that perhaps become evanescent waves towards the small end of the cone., or perhaps it has to do with the DC fields that are being discussed by Todd.  The circular cross section views of the Ez / x field are also interesting because they show that the standing wave field is heavily perturbed by the antenna traveling waves.  Perhaps there is indeed interaction from the energy stored in standing waves and the traveling waves from the RF feed.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2015 06:59 PM by Rodal »

Offline Star One

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I remember there being some conversation earlier in this thread about whether or not Boeing was conducting Emdrive research in secret.  This aviation week article, from Nov 5th 2012, has a direct quote from a Boeig representative:  http://aviationweek.com/awin/propellentless-space-propulsion-research-continues

Quote
There has been little interest in the EmDrive in the West so far, and Shawyer's government funding has ended. Boeing's Phantom Works, which has previously explored exotic forms of space propulsion, was said to be looking into it some years ago. Such work has evidently ceased. “Phantom Works is not working with Mr. Shawyer,” a Boeing representative says, adding that the company is no longer pursuing this avenue.

So I think it is safe to put to bed the idea that Boeing is working on the Emdrive.  Sorry if this has been posted before.

Thank you for putting this issue to bed, as it keeps coming back and some people talk about "Boeing going dark" while the news you just disclosed actually sound like Boeing just turned off the lights on the project and they clearly state that such works has ceased.   From the article it sounds like Boeing was disappointed with the Flight Thruster, as they stopped working with Shawyer.

It was Shawyer who said it went dark and I'd give his word more weight than most on the topic. And no people don't keep dragging this up as they've taken his word on it.

Offline kml

I like your Chamber and I think your idea may show something of interest once you get your scales stabilized.

On your Resonance chamber have you thought of inserting 2 thin copper sheets down your cavity walls forming a capped off horn as another test? Just a thought.

Shell

Edit.... this was for kml.

Yes, I have considered making the inside tapered in a later series of tests.  Right now I'm not even concerned with the dielectric tests until I figure out what is going on with the scale.

Offline deltaMass

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Boeing says they're no longer working on it. One assumes because they found no meat on the bone. The alternative is that they found the biggest breakthrough in physics since QCD, for that's what it represents if it were to work. Only a fool would reject something like that, and Boeing are no fools.

Shawyer says it went black inside Boeing. Can you see him admitting that they rejected it based on their disappointment with it?


Offline rfmwguy

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Boeing thought experiment - I think we would be fooling ourselves if we said there are no black projects or hidden investigations on emdrive. Anything with potential, no matter how far-fetched, will be explored if the potential is great. The nuts and bolts of this project are rather simple, test tools are readily available. Also, there are theory refutiations, but no legit experimental refutiations proving the idea is bunk...that I could find anyway. I find this extremely curious, not one aerospace or energy company has published null test results. Are they asleep at the switch? They usually aren't imho.

Offline deltaMass

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Correct. One can write T = P/v until the cows come home, but there's nobody able to say how something disconnected from everything in an asymptotically field-free flat spacetime can know its v-value. If it could, then Einstein's postulate of there being no preferred inertial reference frame is gainsayed, and the jig is up.

However, this does work splendidly for a car tyre on a road.

An EMDrive powered ship only knows
A = F/M.

The ship's EMDrive generates the Force, which does Work Accelerating the Mass of the ship over a distance The Energy use to do the work comes from the ship's electrical power supply via the Rf generator.

The ship knows nothing of velocity or KE or distant observers in different reference planes.

As long as the EMDrive can generate the Force and the power supply can deliver the Energy for the Force to do Work on the ship's Mass over a distance, the ship will Accelerate.
@frobnicat: Is he ready to be shown The Wheel Of Fortune?

Offline rfmwguy

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I like your Chamber and I think your idea may show something of interest once you get your scales stabilized.

On your Resonance chamber have you thought of inserting 2 thin copper sheets down your cavity walls forming a capped off horn as another test? Just a thought.

Shell

Edit.... this was for kml.

Yes, I have considered making the inside tapered in a later series of tests.  Right now I'm not even concerned with the dielectric tests until I figure out what is going on with the scale.

Kevin, simple isolation idea. Get some wire and a couple of pulleys. move scale and all its cables several feet away. Put a weight on scale and fire up ur emdrive. If no weight change on scale at distance X, attach one end of wire to scale weight, run vertically up tp pulley. Run wire horizontally  to another pulley directly above emdrive. Attach wire to emdrive. Fire it up. There will be losses, but its a quick way to isolate scale and check if there's any emdrive weight change. use solid wire to minimize stretching.

Offline wallofwolfstreet

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I remember there being some conversation earlier in this thread about whether or not Boeing was conducting Emdrive research in secret.  This aviation week article, from Nov 5th 2012, has a direct quote from a Boeig representative:  http://aviationweek.com/awin/propellentless-space-propulsion-research-continues

Quote
There has been little interest in the EmDrive in the West so far, and Shawyer's government funding has ended. Boeing's Phantom Works, which has previously explored exotic forms of space propulsion, was said to be looking into it some years ago. Such work has evidently ceased. “Phantom Works is not working with Mr. Shawyer,” a Boeing representative says, adding that the company is no longer pursuing this avenue.

So I think it is safe to put to bed the idea that Boeing is working on the Emdrive.  Sorry if this has been posted before.

Thank you for putting this issue to bed, as it keeps coming back and some people talk about "Boeing going dark" while the news you just disclosed actually sound like Boeing just turned off the lights on the project and they clearly state that such works has ceased.   From the article it sounds like Boeing was disappointed with the Flight Thruster, as they stopped working with Shawyer.

It was Shawyer who said it went dark and I'd give his word more weight than most on the topic. And no people don't keep dragging this up as they've taken his word on it.

This might be a nitpicky comment,  but it didn't go dark.  That implies that Boeing is still working on it, but not disclosing any information.  A representative of Boeing expressly said they are not working on the emdrive.  It's not dark, it's just done.

Boeing is a publicly traded company.  If they are working on the drive secretly, then they are beholden to simply say "no comment" if they receive enquires about it.  To expressly say they are not working on it would constitute a lie, and as a publicly traded corporation, they have a legal right to be honest with the shareholders (which is different than the legal right they have to pick and choose what they disclose).  Lying by commission would be legitimate grounds for a legal suit by a shareholder should they prove that they were financially impacted by trading on this false information.   

Offline aero

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I have now uploaded the complete set of all of the data slices in the 3 coordinate directions for the ez run. The link is here and I think I've solved the sharing problem so that all you should need is this link.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tfjVmb1RiZXpaajd6WGpGQmpSWDkxRlV3cG10TEJmWVVEbTd2U0t4MC1aa1E&usp=sharing
...
I hope the additional data will help answer your concerns and apologize for not posting it earlier. I thought that I had an error somewhere so withheld it.

Unfortunately Meep does not provide spherical coordinates.

The data most interesting to me is Ez on the plane perpendicular to the z axis, the plane with x and y Cartesian coordinates.  It is evident from the pictures that the electric field is very low (zero a lot of the time in most of the area).  Although low, these pictures may hold the key to the measured thrust, because, as we know, standing waves cannot produce thrust, but the images on Ez / z show the travelling waves from the antenna, that perhaps become evanescent waves towards the small end of the cone., or perhaps it has to do with the DC fields that are being discussed by Todd.  The circular cross section views of the Ez / x field are also interesting because they show that the standing wave field is heavily perturbed by the antenna traveling waves.  Perhaps there is indeed interaction from the energy stored in standing waves and the traveling waves from the RF feed.

It occurs to me that looking at some images Ez/x nearer to the small end of the frustum might be interesting. But making and looking at data sets of all of the possibilities becomes a burden. What do you think? I think I could scan the final time step (I save those fields) end to end, though. Maybe I'll just look.
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline Star One

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I remember there being some conversation earlier in this thread about whether or not Boeing was conducting Emdrive research in secret.  This aviation week article, from Nov 5th 2012, has a direct quote from a Boeig representative:  http://aviationweek.com/awin/propellentless-space-propulsion-research-continues

Quote
There has been little interest in the EmDrive in the West so far, and Shawyer's government funding has ended. Boeing's Phantom Works, which has previously explored exotic forms of space propulsion, was said to be looking into it some years ago. Such work has evidently ceased. “Phantom Works is not working with Mr. Shawyer,” a Boeing representative says, adding that the company is no longer pursuing this avenue.

So I think it is safe to put to bed the idea that Boeing is working on the Emdrive.  Sorry if this has been posted before.

Thank you for putting this issue to bed, as it keeps coming back and some people talk about "Boeing going dark" while the news you just disclosed actually sound like Boeing just turned off the lights on the project and they clearly state that such works has ceased.   From the article it sounds like Boeing was disappointed with the Flight Thruster, as they stopped working with Shawyer.

It was Shawyer who said it went dark and I'd give his word more weight than most on the topic. And no people don't keep dragging this up as they've taken his word on it.

This might be a nitpicky comment,  but it didn't go dark.  That implies that Boeing is still working on it, but not disclosing any information.  A representative of Boeing expressly said they are not working on the emdrive.  It's not dark, it's just done.

Boeing is a publicly traded company.  If they are working on the drive secretly, then they are beholden to simply say "no comment" if they receive enquires about it.  To expressly say they are not working on it would constitute a lie, and as a publicly traded corporation, they have a legal right to be honest with the shareholders (which is different than the legal right they have to pick and choose what they disclose).  Lying by commission would be legitimate grounds for a legal suit by a shareholder should they prove that they were financially impacted by trading on this false information.

Things do just disappear from public view, that are still worked on. Anyway the statement that was made was constructed in such that it was effectively ambiguous, no lying required.

Offline Star One

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I remember there being some conversation earlier in this thread about whether or not Boeing was conducting Emdrive research in secret.  This aviation week article, from Nov 5th 2012, has a direct quote from a Boeig representative:  http://aviationweek.com/awin/propellentless-space-propulsion-research-continues

Quote
There has been little interest in the EmDrive in the West so far, and Shawyer's government funding has ended. Boeing's Phantom Works, which has previously explored exotic forms of space propulsion, was said to be looking into it some years ago. Such work has evidently ceased. “Phantom Works is not working with Mr. Shawyer,” a Boeing representative says, adding that the company is no longer pursuing this avenue.

So I think it is safe to put to bed the idea that Boeing is working on the Emdrive.  Sorry if this has been posted before.

Thank you for putting this issue to bed, as it keeps coming back and some people talk about "Boeing going dark" while the news you just disclosed actually sound like Boeing just turned off the lights on the project and they clearly state that such works has ceased.   From the article it sounds like Boeing was disappointed with the Flight Thruster, as they stopped working with Shawyer.

It was Shawyer who said it went dark and I'd give his word more weight than most on the topic. And no people don't keep dragging this up as they've taken his word on it.

This might be a nitpicky comment,  but it didn't go dark.  That implies that Boeing is still working on it, but not disclosing any information.  A representative of Boeing expressly said they are not working on the emdrive.  It's not dark, it's just done.

Boeing is a publicly traded company.  If they are working on the drive secretly, then they are beholden to simply say "no comment" if they receive enquires about it.  To expressly say they are not working on it would constitute a lie, and as a publicly traded corporation, they have a legal right to be honest with the shareholders (which is different than the legal right they have to pick and choose what they disclose).  Lying by commission would be legitimate grounds for a legal suit by a shareholder should they prove that they were financially impacted by trading on this false information.

Things do just disappear from public view, that are still worked on. Share holders understand very well the way the classified world works and what can be said and cannot be said, what can be left vague and what can be denied. Saying no comment is still a comment, some things require a non-comment. Anyway the statement that was made was constructed in such that it was effectively ambiguous, no lying required.

All I'm trying to say are things are often not as black and white in this area as you seem to believe they are.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2015 08:18 PM by Star One »

Offline Rodal

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I have now uploaded the complete set of all of the data slices in the 3 coordinate directions for the ez run. The link is here and I think I've solved the sharing problem so that all you should need is this link.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B1XizxEfB23tfjVmb1RiZXpaajd6WGpGQmpSWDkxRlV3cG10TEJmWVVEbTd2U0t4MC1aa1E&usp=sharing
...
I hope the additional data will help answer your concerns and apologize for not posting it earlier. I thought that I had an error somewhere so withheld it.

Unfortunately Meep does not provide spherical coordinates.

The data most interesting to me is Ez on the plane perpendicular to the z axis, the plane with x and y Cartesian coordinates.  It is evident from the pictures that the electric field is very low (zero a lot of the time in most of the area).  Although low, these pictures may hold the key to the measured thrust, because, as we know, standing waves cannot produce thrust, but the images on Ez / z show the travelling waves from the antenna, that perhaps become evanescent waves towards the small end of the cone., or perhaps it has to do with the DC fields that are being discussed by Todd.  The circular cross section views of the Ez / x field are also interesting because they show that the standing wave field is heavily perturbed by the antenna traveling waves.  Perhaps there is indeed interaction from the energy stored in standing waves and the traveling waves from the RF feed.

It occurs to me that looking at some images Ez/x nearer to the small end of the frustum might be interesting. But making and looking at data sets of all of the possibilities becomes a burden. What do you think? I think I could scan the final time step (I save those fields) end to end, though. Maybe I'll just look.
Yes, unless you output all the field variables, we are not going to fully understand what's going.  Just to know what mode shape is being excited one needs to have multiple views (because the fields are a function of three variables).  For the MEEP analysis the need for views is compounded by the fact that the results not only show standing waves but also the travelling waves from the antenna.

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Offline deltaMass

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"We are not working on it" is unambiguous.

Hi, sorry to interject.
I've uploaded the longer version of the SPR 2006 air bearing test to YouTube that TheTraveller mentioned was recently uploaded to emdrive.com .

 

I've emailed the SPR contact e-mail to ask if it's ok to put it on YouTube. If not I will remove the video.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2015 08:27 PM by zurael »

Offline Dortex

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"We are not working on it" is unambiguous.

It might just be true from a certain point of view. Not to say they're still working on it, but it's easy to just rename the drive and project then say you're not working on an "EMDrive" specifically.

Offline aero

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Speaking to the possibilities of low friction supports, I recall a case from college days where I was testing a rotating flat plane in a wind tunnel. My advisor and I designed a shaft with very sharply pointed ends. The machine shop turned it out in stainless along with a matching set of supporting conical cavities. The two cavity supports were mounted in the wind tunnel with the points of the rotating shaft inserted. I was amazed at how deep and sharp the cavity support turned out to be. That thing had almost no friction. It was sort of like rfmwguy's razor support, only for rotation.

I'm thinking that a single sharp point in stainless steel support pin inserted into a matching machined cavity mounted on the bottom of the beam would allow beam end motion up/down, sideways and twist if all of those degrees of freedom were to be measured.

My pins were about 4 inches long and 1 inch in diameter at the big end, uniformly tapering to a point on the other end.
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Offline Possibles

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Greetings everyone.

You are all probably going to think I'm a bit mad here...

I had the idea today when I was fed up with thinking about thermal problems and various other artifacts. Also with reversing the experiment to check for thrust. Unfortunately I will also add that actually building what I have in mind is simply going to be too expensive for the hobbyist. So this is going to be more of a thought experiment. I hope that is clear.

What I am proposing is that a spherical capacitor is built. The first, and most desired configuration is that within the first shell, the battery, magnetron, etc... is housed. Heat build up will be a major problem as the inner shell is surrounded by a vacuum so coolant and O2 intake and outtake pipes from the exterior will be needed. The problem here is that the connection to the outside world has to be considered, plus interior interference from the coolant flow etc... The alternative is a one shot system with the interior shell contents supercooled and sealed.

The main purpose of this thought experiment is to ask you guys, and myself included...

How important are the frustum measurements? Can we produce similar effects within two concentric spherical shells containing a vacuum? What will happen?

I know from experience that pointing your eyes and mind somewhere else from time to time can help you realize what you have and haven't got. It can only help.

Mark.

Reposted. Can everyone please pay attention to the subject at hand. Whether or not Boeing drew the line is irrelevant. Boeing has very few people expert in the relevant field - I would imagine this as they are mainly concerned with getting people from A to B using conventional systems.

Our job is to disprove or improve our understanding of the current topic that we are dealing with. It's about time that various people here realized what a rare thread this is. It is for absolute professionals in their field. Of which we are gifted by many. There is a Reddit site available for procrastination. Please feel free to use it.

Sorry for my tone. I do apologize,  and I know I'm an untested stone in the water. Again, I have a lot of respect for everyone here. Please get on with it.

Offline flux_capacitor

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"We are not working on it" is unambiguous.

It might just be true from a certain point of view. Not to say they're still working on it, but it's easy to just rename the drive and project then say you're not working on an "EMDrive" specifically.

No need to rename anything. This sentence "We are not working on it" is just wrong: it is not present in the Aviation Week article. It is your (EDIT: @deltamass) own conclusion, which is based on a bias an assumption and not facts (and the "facts" are quite thin, as we only have some reported comments of an unknown Boeing representative told by a journalist).

The exact quote from the Boeing representative is:
Quote
Phantom Works is not working with Mr. Shawyer
followed by:
Quote
the company is no longer pursuing this avenue.

Which has a completely different meaning, the purpose of such statements proclaimed by professional non-commenters is to remain vague and ambiguous. Basically, the Boeing representative told they are not working with Shawyer anymore, they never said they were not working on a drive anymore. Very classical for PR to respond in a way that misses the point. All the rest besides those two sentences is only interpretation.

The only truth about this is: we don't know. So don't infer wrong conclusions from twisted quotes.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2015 10:06 PM by flux_capacitor »

Offline Dortex

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It is your own conclusion

No it's not.

and because it is not even in the original text,I call it bias and not facts
Your English needs work, then.

The only truth about this is: we don't know. So don't infer wrong conclusions from twisted quotes.
I'm not inferring anything.
« Last Edit: 06/23/2015 09:27 PM by Dortex »

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