Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1801869 times)

Offline Vix

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What is perplexing to me is the fact that the Chinese seem to be experimenting with some technologies that are still deemed as junk in the west, like EM drive or Lenr:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/06/chinas-lenr-is-getting-excess-600-watts.html?m=1

But, as they say, one man's junk is another's treasure :)

Now I wish to believe that everything is true, but I am still not convinced, at least not without going into some conspiracy theories. Yet, I still believe that google doesn't have all the answers, simply because we still don't know what we don't know :) , and the truth is out there :). Hence I wish you good luck and happy building, even if that mean that the truth may be hidden in a trash bin :)

Offline Blaine

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Everyone check out Hackaday.io! Results are up and data is looking good.

Offline Prunesquallor

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https://hackaday.io/project/5596-em-drive

I'm just looking at the plots.  They say he decelerated from 500 spin units to 100 spin units 3000 time units sooner when he was thrusting against the spin as opposed to thrusting with the spin?
« Last Edit: 06/10/2015 08:02 PM by Prunesquallor »
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Offline DIYFAN

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https://hackaday.io/project/5596-em-drive

I'm just looking at the plots.  They say he decelerated from 500 spin units to 100 spin units 3000 time units sooner when he was thrusting against the spin as opposed to thrusting with the spin?

That is my interpretation of the initial plots posted today.  I'm looking forward to seeing more test runs and more plots.

Offline Prunesquallor

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https://hackaday.io/project/5596-em-drive

I'm just looking at the plots.  They say he decelerated from 500 spin units to 100 spin units 3000 time units sooner when he was thrusting against the spin as opposed to thrusting with the spin?

That is my interpretation of the initial plots posted today.  I'm looking forward to seeing more test runs and more plots.

What is the vertical red hack?  Is that the thruster "on" point?
Retired, yet... not

https://hackaday.io/project/5596-em-drive

I'm just looking at the plots.  They say he decelerated from 500 spin units to 100 spin units 3000 time units sooner when he was thrusting against the spin as opposed to thrusting with the spin?

That is my interpretation of the initial plots posted today.  I'm looking forward to seeing more test runs and more plots.

Yes, this is my understanging as well. The difference in the decreasing of the rotation rates in the plots indicates that smth is going on when the thruster is switched on.
As far as I understand, with this test setup it can't be due to the air buoyancy or air heating up in general.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2015 08:22 PM by supryin »

Offline RERT

I was quite taken by the comment some time back - ?by DeltaMass? - implying no explanation from Maxwell's equations. Right now I expect that the results are an artefact, but if not, we need another theory.

I'm reluctant to drop in an idea that I have absolutely no idea how to calculate, but the recent reference to the weak force ability to transfer momentum to the vacuum reminded me that, at least when I was in school, the weak force was part of the electro-weak force.

Does some cross coupling exist between EM and Weak interactions which would facilitate the above momentum transfer in the fields seen in the frustrum?

Online Rodal

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First the Chinese lead in force/Input power (1 N/kW)

Now the Germans lead in miniaturization  (Baby EM Drive)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=10&v=ZSZT5plA4a4

If this works they already announced they were going to send it into Space...
« Last Edit: 06/10/2015 08:41 PM by Rodal »

Offline tchernik

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First the Chinese lead in force/Input power (1 N/kW)

Now the Germans lead in miniaturization  (Baby EM Drive)



If this works they already announced they were going to send it into Space...

Sputnik moment, here it comes.

Offline birchoff

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First the Chinese lead in force/Input power (1 N/kW)

Now the Germans lead in miniaturization  (Baby EM Drive)

...

If this works they already announced they were going to send it into Space...

I would hope they would attempt a null configuration test with a cylinder geometry test.

Offline Star One

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As to their test I see people are asking for a null chart where the device wasn't powered on.

They are also wondering about the effect air resistance would have.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2015 08:51 PM by Star One »

Offline deltaMass

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They need to take a lot more data. That includes repetitions and null tests and side-by-side comparisons and difference plots and statistical analyses and and...

If finite thrust is found, the key parameters are N/W and N/Kg. It is likely that the latter one blows the doors off anything heretofore tried, due to the small dimensions.

A composite Figure of Merit (FoM) might be better - i.e. N / (W Kg).
Would make a good column for the Wiki?
« Last Edit: 06/10/2015 08:59 PM by deltaMass »

They mentioned (in the Node interview) that they will also be doing vacuum tests. Excited for the results of that.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2015 09:01 PM by zurael »

Offline deltaMass

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I wish they'd kept the plotting going past zero velocity, in both cases.

Offline Star One

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They need to take a lot more data. That includes repetitions and null tests and side-by-side comparisons and difference plots and statistical analyses and and...

If finite thrust is found, the key parameters are N/W and N/Kg. It is likely that the latter one blows the doors off anything heretofore tried, due to the small dimensions.

A composite Figure of Merit (FoM) might be better - i.e. N / (W Kg).
Would make a good column for the Wiki?

Many, many, many, many replications TBH. :-\

Offline Prunesquallor

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First the Chinese lead in force/Input power (1 N/kW)

Now the Germans lead in miniaturization  (Baby EM Drive)

...

If this works they already announced they were going to send it into Space...

I would hope they would attempt a null configuration test with a cylinder geometry test.

I hope they are not just looking for an excuse to fly just for the sake of flying. Null results could actually cause more damage than benefit.
Retired, yet... not

Offline Prunesquallor

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They need to take a lot more data. That includes repetitions and null tests and side-by-side comparisons and difference plots and statistical analyses and and...

If finite thrust is found, the key parameters are N/W and N/Kg. It is likely that the latter one blows the doors off anything heretofore tried, due to the small dimensions.

A composite Figure of Merit (FoM) might be better - i.e. N / (W Kg).
Would make a good column for the Wiki?

I would keep them separate. In a vehicle systems context, the mass/cost of the power plant may be dominant, hence a higher importance of N/W.   Or, it may not.  We don't know, so I would keep them distinct.
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Offline aero

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https://hackaday.io/project/5596-em-drive

So how are we going to pull N/W out of that data? Or mN/mW?
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Offline SeeShells

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...
It may seem like a question that has been asked before and tried to find it using the search function (right... good luck) but why 2.45 GHZ? Considering you can make a cavity in any size with a new set of harmonics at a different input frequency.
Sorry to ask but I've tried to dig it out on my own and nadda.

Shell
Because (2.45 GHz) that's the standard frequency for Magnetrons used in home microwave cooking ovens.

The same reason why it was easy for Iulian to get a magnetron at that frequency at a reasonable price.
And that's it? Thanks. I thought it might be it but I could never know if I missed something.

Minor thing to remember is that when this cylinder is being submerged, your z-coordinate, if measured from the water level, is not a constant.  When the cylinder goes down some incremental step dz, it will actually raise the water level in your container by:

dwaterlevel= (A*dz)/AreaGarbageCan)

The changing of the water level will mean more of your cylinder is submerged that just a simple calculation would indicate, which is something you need to include into the math.  Easy to do the iterative calculation.  There is also a closed form solution if you are into that sort of thing :P.       

You can see just from the above equation that one way to eliminate this issue is to choose a large area container, so the change in water height becomes negligible.
Thanks for your input, it means a lot.

I plan to keep to keep one end of the frustum exposed about 10 mill above the water and I'll be happy to get a max of 1 mill of Z deviation.

Offline kml

https://hackaday.io/project/5596-em-drive

Is there any indication of which end (large or small) is forward?   If it has no dielectric inside it should be accelerating large end forward, I'd love to know if that's the case.

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