Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1798792 times)

Asked about it on youtube, apparently the rig was spun for 8 minutes before power was applied, and the rig was suspended magnetically.
He also said tests of other orientations have been run.

Edit: I also asked if they intended to try a tunable small end plate like the Shawyer designs, he said they did intend to do so, either as an improvement to the current test, or a complete redesign.
« Last Edit: 06/09/2015 10:05 PM by zurael »

Offline SeeShells

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The other thing we need to look at because of the commonality of thrust after power is turned off. It is there and even though they are different in some amount of time. Looking at everything I have to ask, even though it may be far fetched. (HA! here we are talking about a reactionless drive and i say far fetched). Are we seeing an artifact from the EMdrive itself? Are we somehow seeing the drive re-establish its frame reference to the outside world after thrust?  I need to mull this one over for a bit as it going to require more than just figuring out the abnormalities of an air bearing.
Seeshells, Link that thought back to Todds G-mimic /horizon_event effect. You have an intuitive and very valid conjecture. A G-mimic/horizon_event takes time and energy to create, also to dissipate.
When you get your cavity up and running, can you please test its inertial reaction to an outside force temporarily acting on the device ( perhaps a coiled spring or a known mass on the end of a pendulum string as an impactor) ... the usual  power on/power off phases and data log the distance, acceleration, velocity etc.
Good idea! One of the tests I'll be testing this. I plan to suspend the EMdrive almost submerged in a tank of water with a just a little of it out of the water. I'm thinking of using lasers angled off the top and sides to measure any displacements of the water. Placing the target about 25 foot away should give me enough deviation to calculate the displacement of the water and record the real time actions with the Drive on.  Also the water will keep the frustum cooled and hopefully a little more stable.

This will not be with the one with holes... lmao. It will be with the solid and sealed frustum.

Offline Prunesquallor

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The other thing we need to look at because of the commonality of thrust after power is turned off. It is there and even though they are different in some amount of time. Looking at everything I have to ask, even though it may be far fetched. (HA! here we are talking about a reactionless drive and i say far fetched). Are we seeing an artifact from the EMdrive itself? Are we somehow seeing the drive re-establish its frame reference to the outside world after thrust?  I need to mull this one over for a bit as it going to require more than just figuring out the abnormalities of an air bearing.
Seeshells, Link that thought back to Todds G-mimic /horizon_event effect. You have an intuitive and very valid conjecture. A G-mimic/horizon_event takes time and energy to create, also to dissipate.
When you get your cavity up and running, can you please test its inertial reaction to an outside force temporarily acting on the device ( perhaps a coiled spring or a known mass on the end of a pendulum string as an impactor) ... the usual  power on/power off phases and data log the distance, acceleration, velocity etc.
Good idea! One of the tests I'll be testing this. I plan to suspend the EMdrive almost submerged in a tank of water with a just a little of it out of the water. I'm thinking of using lasers angled off the top and sides to measure any displacements of the water. Placing the target about 25 foot away should give me enough deviation to calculate the displacement of the water and record the real time actions with the Drive on.  Also the water will keep the frustum cooled and hopefully a little more stable.

This will not be with the one with holes... lmao. It will be with the solid and sealed frustum.

Might want to keep the power low at first...
« Last Edit: 06/09/2015 10:16 PM by Prunesquallor »
Retired, yet... not

Offline deltaMass

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...
Really? How? Where does the extra free energy come from?
The rotary device is the simplest. A balanced wheel with two equal masses A,B diametrically placed, one of which (A) is alterable by means unspecified. When A is descending it is made heavier. Thus each half cycle the wheel undergoes acceleration.
The linear version requires no gravity and can operate in free space. It consists of a variable mass "puck" losslesssly bouncing between two walls of a container. When it strikes the "front" wall it is made heavier. The container experiences a steady acceleration in the forward direction.
The full descriptions are attached

"...is alterable by means unspecified"

In the paper you wrote; "...by whatever means."

The "means" you are referring to, I refer to as a self-charging capacitor. If you have a device that can spontaneous gain mass, i.e., a self-charging capacitor, you don't need the cart or the wheel to extract it.

Good luck with that! I wouldn't buy Woodward's device either.

I know you're looking to get a rise out of me, but I'm too old to fall for it. Next!

This is an informal paper that seeks to demonstrates a principle, and succeeds in doing so via a worked example. The fact that one cannot build this and therefore violate CoE is incidental.

In particular, I was answering your direct question to the best of my ability.

Why would I bother? - because (modulo my misunderstanding) I'm seeing hints of variable mass occurring in your mathematics. Therefore this little discussion shows you what you can do with it.

« Last Edit: 06/09/2015 10:27 PM by deltaMass »

Offline A_M_Swallow

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{snip}
It is a perplexing problem and obviously not a realistic one, once you consider the power source is external and mass will increase indefinitely.
Todd
Does this amount to with a solar powered EM drive the speed will increase as long as energy is supplied? The energy is stored as mass.
This variable mass
should reduce the acceleration for constant Pin as the velocity increases, giving the device a top speed.
I would draw your attention to my nick  :D
Were this to be true, then this is yet another way to build a perpetual motion machine of the 1st kind, with free energy to spare.  Any system that can vary its mass at will can in principle be engineered into a free energy machine.


You would have to exceed the top speed to extract excess energy. As energy is removed the mass would go down.

You do not actually get to the top speed because that would produce infinite mass and zero acceleration. The system will have rest mass.
I can show you a very simple machine utilising the hypothetical principle of variable mass that readily produces free energy forever. A version can be built for either linear motion in free space or, using a different approach, rotary motion in a gravitational field.

The bottom line is that if you have variable mass then you have perpetual motion and free energy.

I am describing
E = mc2 / sqrt(1- (v2 / c2) )

The energy to increase the mass did not appear by magic, the machine is solar powered, it came from the sun. You cannot get more energy out than is put in (including starting energy). It is a battery not a perpetual motion machine.

Offline SeeShells

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...
Really? How? Where does the extra free energy come from?
The rotary device is the simplest. A balanced wheel with two equal masses A,B diametrically placed, one of which (A) is alterable by means unspecified. When A is descending it is made heavier. Thus each half cycle the wheel undergoes acceleration.
The linear version requires no gravity and can operate in free space. It consists of a variable mass "puck" losslesssly bouncing between two walls of a container. When it strikes the "front" wall it is made heavier. The container experiences a steady acceleration in the forward direction.
The full descriptions are attached

"...is alterable by means unspecified"

In the paper you wrote; "...by whatever means."

The "means" you are referring to, I refer to as a self-charging capacitor. If you have a device that can spontaneous gain mass, i.e., a self-charging capacitor, you don't need the cart or the wheel to extract it.

Good luck with that! I wouldn't buy Woodward's device either.

I know you're looking to get a rise out of me, but I'm too old to fall for it. Next!

This is an informal paper that seeks to demonstrates a principle, and succeeds in doing so via a worked example. The fact that one cannot build this and therefore violate CoE is incidental.

In particular, I was answering your direct question to the best of my ability.

Why would I bother? - because (modulo my misunderstanding) I'm seeing hints of variable mass occurring in your mathematics. Therefore this little discussion shows you what you can do with it.

Ok you two, It's not gonna work as I already have the patent on a Variable Mass Platform.

Shell

Offline deltaMass

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I have a car like that. As I'm driving along, I throw a biodegradable object out of the window :)

What I was talking about is some gizmo that allows mass to change and then change back to its rest mass value, with no expenditure of energy or momentum. Therefore Mr. Swallow's idea is not to be included, and I suspect, Shells, neither is yours.

Think of it as "a magic brick"
« Last Edit: 06/09/2015 11:38 PM by deltaMass »

Offline Rodal

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I calculated the geometry of the NWPU Prof. Yang et.al.'s cavity.  The length is given in Yang's paper.  The small diameter is given by the cutoff frequency for mode TE010 and the big diameter comes from Fig. 3, knowing the previous data and the fact that the frequency was 2.45 GHz and the mode TE012 (which according to Prof. Yang's computer program should give the highest thrust force).

I also verified that these dimensions result in resonance of the cavity at 2.45 GHz in mode TE012 with my truncated cone exact solution (it checked fine).


Description   Mode Shape   Cavity Length (m)   bigDiameter (m)   smallDiameter (m)   Shawyer Design Factor
NWPU Yang    TE012        0.24                    0.201                   0.1492                       0.664       

http://emdrive.wiki/Experimental_Results

Where Shawyer's Design Factor is calculated with TE010 as the cutoff frequency, just as one has to do for Shawyer's Demonstrator to get a design factor of 0.844
« Last Edit: 06/10/2015 01:10 AM by Rodal »

Offline wallofwolfstreet

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Where to start? Please read a few things first please, so I don't have to explain it all. Thank you!

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222942820_Quantum_Ground_States_as_Equilibrium_Particle-Vacuum_Interaction_States
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24268956_Electromagnetic_Potentials_
Basis_for_Energy_Density_and_Power_Flux
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/223130116_Advanced_Space_Propulsion
_Based_on_Vacuum_%28Spacetime_Metric%29_Engineering

This is an excerpt from a paper I can't post here, regarding the interaction between a charged particle harmonic oscillator and the EM ZPF, that should explain it more clearly than I can...
Todd

Just got around to reading those links Todd.

To get the obvious out of the way, all those papers are from a single person, Harold Puthoff, and none of them have been subjected to peer review.  Seeing as they were all from the same person, I figured I would give him a google and see what sort of background he had.  It's an interesting background, to say the least.  If anyone wants to know what I mean by that, they can check the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_E._Puthoff

After reading that, I thought I would read the wikis on stochastic electrodynamics (SED) and the polarisable vacuum (PV) model of GR to get a quick background.  Links provided:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_electrodynamics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarizable_vacuum

Okay.  It looks like maybe this PV model is a little bit more contentious in the physics community than I was led to believe.  Wikipedia is wikipedia however, so I'm not about to take their word on it.

Now I go to my school's databases.  As best I can tell, a large chunk of everything written on the polarizable vacuum is written by Dr. Puthoff.  There are only a handful of papers on the subject that aren't by him. 

Finally, I read the papers, ordered in the way you linked them:

1)  This is an attempt to reconcile the idea of a radiationless quantum ground state with the fact that accelerating charges ought to produce radiation from a classical viewpoint, correct?  If so, I can reconcile that quite easily: the classical viewpoint is superseded by the quantum viewpoint at such scales, and therefore no reconciliation is actually needed.  Experiments validate the accuracy of quantum theory in explaining away this apparent issue, so in what way does SED add to the discussion? 

2) There isn't really anything to argue about in here.  It's basically him arguing for different variables, but same math, in classical EM.  However, there is absolutely nothing here than goes against anything I said in my original post.  Not sure what his paper was supposed to convey in the context of your reply.

3)  This starts out kind of innocuously, but then unexpectedly takes the whole PV approach.  In order to "get " this paper, you have to already take the PV model as fact.  I guess my question is, on what basis do we accept Dr. Puthoffs PV model?  He introduces it as though it should be obvious to the reader, not even a citation.  It's not obvious to me.  Is there evidence for it? 

I guess what I am saying is, while those citations offer insight into what Puthoff is thinking, they do literally nothing to validate his thoughts.  All I know now is where you got your approach from.  I can't honestly say that this new knowledge has put to bed any of my technical criticisms.             

Offline SeeShells

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I have a car like that. As I'm driving along, I throw a biodegradable object out of the window :)

What I was talking about is some gizmo that allows mass to change and then change back to its rest mass value, with no expenditure of energy or momentum. Therefore Mr. Swallow's idea is not to be included, and I suspect, Shells, neither is yours.

Think of it as "a magic brick"
:) Look it up.
 
I know and keep up as I've been following the debate between you two. I will say both of you are very good with very insightful ideas and thoughts. If anything in this paper thought experiment you have advanced what I understood and what others have.

At this point and since I love to look at problems a little differently. I'll pose a question that take things back to a fundamental level. I need to ask why when laser was shot through a frustum did they see a time differential in the frustum cavity? What in the world could cause this, a warpage of time, which is space? A effect that was many times more than any that could be calculated. It would seem like it was an artifact of something going on within the EMDrive.

I've always looked at things differently.  We create the paper equations that define the laws but mother nature makes the laws and honestly we can't violate her laws. We have always we had a tough time defining them. So maybe if you two take it to the extreme and not worry about violating a law on paper it might give you insight into something quite different than you thought.

Just a thought from an old lady engineer.

Offline Tetrakis

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At this point and since I love to look at problems a little differently. I'll pose a question that take things back to a fundamental level. I need to ask why when laser was shot through a frustum did they see a time differential in the frustum cavity? What in the world could cause this, a warpage of time, which is space? A effect that was many times more than any that could be calculated. It would seem like it was an artifact of something going on within the EMDrive.


Why do you discount the null hypothesis? It is highly likely, >99%, that the experimental conditions were insufficiently robust.

Offline deltaMass

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Quote
Todd
How do you move a black hole?

You dont.  You create and destroy it, cyclically
Move a black hole using a large mass by means of gravity.
If it's charged, you may use a voltage or a magnetic field to move it.

And if it's spinning, you bolt it to the back forks of your bicycle.

Offline Acryte

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I thought I read at one point that superfluid helium could work as a perpetual fountain because it expels itself by frictionlessly climbing surfaces and can create a pressure gradient that keeps it siphoning, provided you maintained the cooled state of it perpetually... Or maybe that's just old outdated babble.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2015 12:42 AM by Acryte »

Offline SeeShells

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At this point and since I love to look at problems a little differently. I'll pose a question that take things back to a fundamental level. I need to ask why when laser was shot through a frustum did they see a time differential in the frustum cavity? What in the world could cause this, a warpage of time, which is space? A effect that was many times more than any that could be calculated. It would seem like it was an artifact of something going on within the EMDrive.


Why do you discount the null hypothesis? It is highly likely, >99%, that the experimental conditions were insufficiently robust.
So you believe no statistical significance existed in this set of observations?

Offline rfmwguy

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Rough 11.01x6.25x9 frustum frame...I'll use this to shape the copper mesh or sheeting. And yes, I made use of an old lampshade :)

Offline SeeShells

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I have a car like that. As I'm driving along, I throw a biodegradable object out of the window :)

What I was talking about is some gizmo that allows mass to change and then change back to its rest mass value, with no expenditure of energy or momentum. Therefore Mr. Swallow's idea is not to be included, and I suspect, Shells, neither is yours.

Think of it as "a magic brick"
Mine has nothing to do with an EMdrive but it does work and work quite well. So happens it is called A Variable Mass Platform. So your suspicions and assumptions are wrong. Be open to things, you are too bright and dang smart not to be.

Offline wallofwolfstreet

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I have a car like that. As I'm driving along, I throw a biodegradable object out of the window :)

What I was talking about is some gizmo that allows mass to change and then change back to its rest mass value, with no expenditure of energy or momentum. Therefore Mr. Swallow's idea is not to be included, and I suspect, Shells, neither is yours.

Think of it as "a magic brick"
Mine has nothing to do with an EMdrive but it does work and work quite well. So happens it is called A Variable Mass Platform. So your suspicions and assumptions are wrong. Be open to things, you are too bright and dang smart not to be.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you Shell, but are you saying you have/know of something that is able to change its mass with no expenditure of energy?  Like a black box that can gain mass at command, no power needed?  A quick google of variable mass platform didn't satisfy my curiosity.   

Offline SeeShells

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I have a car like that. As I'm driving along, I throw a biodegradable object out of the window :)

What I was talking about is some gizmo that allows mass to change and then change back to its rest mass value, with no expenditure of energy or momentum. Therefore Mr. Swallow's idea is not to be included, and I suspect, Shells, neither is yours.

Think of it as "a magic brick"
Mine has nothing to do with an EMdrive but it does work and work quite well. So happens it is called A Variable Mass Platform. So your suspicions and assumptions are wrong. Be open to things, you are too bright and dang smart not to be.
Well, you didn't tell me what it was yet!
https://www.google.com/patents/US6227515

I have a car like that. As I'm driving along, I throw a biodegradable object out of the window :)

What I was talking about is some gizmo that allows mass to change and then change back to its rest mass value, with no expenditure of energy or momentum. Therefore Mr. Swallow's idea is not to be included, and I suspect, Shells, neither is yours.

Think of it as "a magic brick"
Mine has nothing to do with an EMdrive but it does work and work quite well. So happens it is called A Variable Mass Platform. So your suspicions and assumptions are wrong. Be open to things, you are too bright and dang smart not to be.
Well, you didn't tell me what it was yet!
https://www.google.com/patents/US6227515

Pardon me, I think deltaMass was referring to the modulation of the inertial and/or gravitational rest mass of a constant number of point particles by some means. (Like the proposed woodward effect?)   (⌒_⌒;)
« Last Edit: 06/10/2015 01:49 AM by zurael »

Offline rfmwguy

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I have a car like that. As I'm driving along, I throw a biodegradable object out of the window :)

What I was talking about is some gizmo that allows mass to change and then change back to its rest mass value, with no expenditure of energy or momentum. Therefore Mr. Swallow's idea is not to be included, and I suspect, Shells, neither is yours.

Think of it as "a magic brick"
Mine has nothing to do with an EMdrive but it does work and work quite well. So happens it is called A Variable Mass Platform. So your suspicions and assumptions are wrong. Be open to things, you are too bright and dang smart not to be.
Well, you didn't tell me what it was yet!
https://www.google.com/patents/US6227515

Wow...nice shell, congrats

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