Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 3  (Read 1877178 times)

Offline Left Field

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As the packet enters just enters the neck and has passed the frustum area, the frustum area starts to increase dramatically in photonic activity even after the light pulse dissipates into the endcap and in one of the last frames you can see the end result.

The laser is not being fired along the axis of the bottle. Look at the arc of light on the table before it strikes the bottle; there is a sphere of light expanding into the scene. It is travelling from bottom left frame to top right into the screen, so the light will strike the cap at the same time as it reaches the far side of the bottle. It just so happens that the bottle is curved there and focuses the light back to the camera. If you watch the progress of the arc of light on the table you can see how it matches up with the shape of the bottle.

Also, the coke bottom cap probably has a reflective white plastic insert, which perhaps sustains that glow.

I just tried to simulate it at home, but all I have is a new bottle of Coke Zero and I ain't drinking that rubbish to demonstrate it  :P

Offline aero

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Yes, my thoughts are similar. The flash is reflected light from the opposite inside surface of the bottle. It happens to appear to the camera at a later time because it has traveled farther than the direct light from the photon pulse. That is, it travels (for a centered axial pulse line of flight) one-half bottle radius from the pulse to the other side, then one-half radius back to the center line where the pulse was, then on to the camera. But it is the light time of traveling a full diameter farther than light from the pulse, hence arrives later at the camera.
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Online Rodal

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As the packet enters just enters the neck and has passed the frustum area, the frustum area starts to increase dramatically in photonic activity even after the light pulse dissipates into the endcap and in one of the last frames you can see the end result.

The laser is not being fired along the axis of the bottle. Look at the arc of light on the table before it strikes the bottle; there is a sphere of light expanding into the scene. It is travelling from bottom left frame to top right into the screen, so the light will strike the cap at the same time as it reaches the far side of the bottle. It just so happens that the bottle is curved there and focuses the light back to the camera. If you watch the progress of the arc of light on the table you can see how it matches up with the shape of the bottle.

Also, the coke bottom cap probably has a reflective white plastic insert, which perhaps sustains that glow.

I just tried to simulate it at home, but all I have is a new bottle of Coke Zero and I ain't drinking that rubbish to demonstrate it  :P

The information can be obtained from MIT's Media Lab. 

Laser-produced bursts of light travel the length of a one-liter bottle, bouncing off the cap and reflecting back.

The aperture of the streak camera is a narrow slit.  Photons enter the photocathode through a slit, which when hit by photons produces electrons via the photoelectric effect and pass through an electric field that deflects them in a direction perpendicular to the slit.

So: they first convert light into an electron stream, which is then easily deflected using an electromagnetic field.

Because the electric field is changing very rapidly, it deflects the electrons corresponding to late-arriving photons more than it does those corresponding to early arriving ones.

The image produced by the camera is one dimensional in space: one dimension corresponds to the space coordinate axis: the direction of the slit. The other dimension, corresponding to the degree of deflection, is time. The image thus represents the time of arrival of photons passing through a one-dimensional slice of space. corresponding to the direction of the slit.The image thus represents the time of arrival of photons passing through a one-dimensional slice of space.

The streak camera and the laser that generates the light pulses — both cutting-edge devices with a cumulative price tag of $250,000 — were provided by Bawendi, a pioneer in research on quantum dots: tiny, light-emitting clusters of semiconductor particles that have potential applications in quantum computing, video-display technology, biological imaging, solar cells and a host of other areas.

In order to get the two-dimensions of space, they must perform the same experiment — such as passing a light pulse through a bottle — over and over, continually repositioning the streak camera to gradually build up a two-dimensional image. Synchronizing the camera and the laser that generates the pulse, so that the timing of every exposure is the same, requires a battery of sophisticated optical equipment and exquisite mechanical control. It takes only a nanosecond — a billionth of a second — for light to scatter through a bottle, but it takes about an hour to collect all the data necessary for the final video.

It takes over an hour, after which the researchers accumulate hundreds of thousands of data sets, each of which plots the one-dimensional positions of photons against their times of arrival. Raskar, Velten and other members at MIT's Media Lab developed mathematical algorithms that can stitch that raw data into a set of sequential two-dimensional images.
« Last Edit: 06/05/2015 08:16 PM by Rodal »

Offline Notsosureofit

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(Ooops ! The "Firebug" jumped thru hyperspace...)

FYI

A FABLE FOR SOME OTHER TIME

Chapter 1.

In a quiet inertial frame between galaxies far, far away, Turtle and Rabbit (T&R Space Movers, LLC)

were floating in their space transport, "Firebug", a refurbished shipping container carrying recycled

bricks from the remains of (the now sunken) New York City.

Rabbit said, "Turtle, I want to to aim my Hubble telescope (bought cheap at the NASA bankrupcy

auction) at that pretty star over there.  What say I throw some bricks from one corner of the

ship to get this thing rotating into position."

"Not so fast", said Turtle. (her favorite expression) "If you do that, you'll have to throw more

bricks in the opposite direction when you want it to stop.  Besides, I don't want you to

throwing our cargo overboard whenever you feel like it."

"Then how else can I point my telescope ?" said Rabbit.
 
"Well, I have this little gadget...." said Turtle.

"That's your antique disk drive" said Rabbit, "How is that supposed to help me turn the ship?"

Turtle settled in for a bit, "I can use this thing to store energy in a spinning disk. It

doesn't lose very much and I can always input a certain amount of power to overcome those losses

and maintain a given angular frequency and by extension, a given angular momentum."

"Huh ?" said Rabbit, "I'm an oscillator guy, myself. You know, back and forth, fast!"

"Ok, ok" said Turtle, "Think of the atoms in the spinning disk as undergoing oscillation in each

of two dimensions, x and y, at the same frequency and 90 degrees apart in phase. Forget about z

and t for the moment."

Rabbit thinks for a moment and says, "Mmmm, well I guess the energy stored would be proportional to the amount

of power you have to be putting in times the Q of the oscillator."

"Right!" said Turtle, " And the amount of stored energy determines the rate at which the ship

will rotate in the opposite direction to the disk.  When you stop the disk, you stop the ship.

You've changed your frame of reference to the "fixed" stars, all due to the Conservation of

Angular Momentum."

"Oh goody!" says Rabbit, "Now I can get a good look at that star."

Chapter 2.

Bye n' bye, as Turtle was trying to listen to her favorite recording, "A Window in Time", (Sergei

Rachmaninoff performs his solo piano works) she could not help but notice that Rabbit was

becoming increasingly frustrated over at his telescope.

"What seems to be the matter this time?", she asked.

"It's this star!  It's too red!  I really didn't want to ask, but can I throw some bricks out

the back and shorten those stellar wavelengths a bit?"

Turtle hated to repeat herself, "No! We've been over this.  I don't want you wasting our bricks!"

"But I really want to be able to see more of that star." said Rabbit, "Isn't there anything else

I could do ?"

"Well, I have this little gadget...." said Turtle.

"Oh no, not this time." said Rabbit, "Your little trick with the disk worked to rotate the ship,

and frustratingly slow at that, but I need to make it move! You know, the whole displacement,

velocity, acceleration bit."

"Calm down." said Turtle, "It really isn't that much different.  You already know that

acceleration is just a rotation that includes t as one of the two axes."

"But, but ...." stammered Rabbit.

"And, you already know that if we make an oscillator in those two dimensions we can store an

amount of energy proportional to power times Q."

"Yeah, but ...." continued Rabbit.

"And, you already know that the ship will continue to accelerate as long as we maintain that

stored energy in the oscillator." said Turtle.

"Now just a carrot pickin' minute here." said Rabbit, "That's just an old tin flowerpot from the

trash, a fryin' pan lid and parts from the cooker in the galley!  It doesn't even have a disk!"

Turtle smiled, "We don't need the disk. We can use the standing electro-magnetic waves and the

charged particles in the walls as the pair of oscillators for the two axes."

"How's that again ?" said Rabbit "Don't we need that 90 degree phase shift as well?"

"Why do you think that's a flower pot rather than one of those big cans of veggies you're so

fond of ? The electrons and photons are doing a little dance together, so all we need to do is

get them a bit behind or ahead.  We don't have to have exactly 90 degrees, but that would be

best"

"You really believe this will work ?" said Rabbit.

"I think it will." said Turtle, putting on her best smile, "but I'm not so sure of it."
« Last Edit: 06/08/2015 01:59 AM by Notsosureofit »

Offline SeeShells

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...
As the packet enters just enters the neck and has passed the frustum area, the frustum area starts to increase dramatically in photonic activity even after the light pulse dissipates into the endcap and in one of the last frames you can see the end result.
Shell, thanks again for posting this great video and for sharing your great insights.  And thank you for the still photographs !
Your last comment brings to mind something that we have not discussed in enough detail before: the EM Drive shape used by Shawyer for the Demonstrator (and now by Iulian in his next series of tests) is a little like this soda bottle.  The straight section after the taper is like the straight endcap in the soda bottle.

I think that assuming that the Demonstrator behaves like Shawyer's experimental or like NASA's frustum may be  unwarranted because of this straight section after the taper.  It is not a simple truncated cone anymore.  The natural frequencies and mode shapes are different.  The mode shapes are less similar to a cylinder.
You're correct it may not be warranted because of the dissimilarities, but it also can be looked at where the similarities match. My area of focus was the frustum angles just before the neck. It's representative of one packet of light and maybe that can be likened to one full waveform of Microwave pulsed into an EM cavity. We do not have any Q or real modes, only the reflective angled surfaces acting on the waveform.
With that packet of light within the frustum shaped area and after the packet has passed into the endcap and seen dissipating we still see what looks like an organized and intense display in the frustum area.
It's the closest real visual we can relate to and in my opinion strengthens the actions we see in a tapered cavity with microwaves.

 

Online Rodal

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...
As the packet enters just enters the neck and has passed the frustum area, the frustum area starts to increase dramatically in photonic activity even after the light pulse dissipates into the endcap and in one of the last frames you can see the end result.
Shell, thanks again for posting this great video and for sharing your great insights.  And thank you for the still photographs !
Your last comment brings to mind something that we have not discussed in enough detail before: the EM Drive shape used by Shawyer for the Demonstrator (and now by Iulian in his next series of tests) is a little like this soda bottle.  The straight section after the taper is like the straight endcap in the soda bottle.

I think that assuming that the Demonstrator behaves like Shawyer's experimental or like NASA's frustum may be  unwarranted because of this straight section after the taper.  It is not a simple truncated cone anymore.  The natural frequencies and mode shapes are different.  The mode shapes are less similar to a cylinder.
You're correct it may not be warranted because of the dissimilarities, but it also can be looked at where the similarities match. My area of focus was the frustum angles just before the neck. It's representative of one packet of light and maybe that can be likened to one full waveform of Microwave pulsed into an EM cavity. We do not have any Q or real modes, only the reflective angled surfaces acting on the waveform.
With that packet of light within the frustum shaped area and after the packet has passed into the endcap and seen dissipating we still see what looks like an organized and intense display in the frustum area.
It's the closest real visual we can relate to and in my opinion strengthens the actions we see in a tapered cavity with microwaves.

Sorry about my bad English.  I didn't want to mean that anything you wrote was unwarranted.  On the contrary, I find what you wrote to be very appropriate.

I meant to write that others (including me) should not assume that the Demonstrator from Shawyer (and now the new one from Iulian, where he added a straight section) will behave like the other EM Drives.  In previous discussions we were treating the Demonstrator (and the new modified EM Drive by Iulian) as the same as the other EM Drives.

What you wrote is entirely appropriate for the Demonstrator, and who knows may also be for the other EM Drives.   I personally have to give this some more thought :)
« Last Edit: 06/05/2015 04:54 PM by Rodal »

Offline Notsosureofit

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Online Rodal

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...A FABLE FOR SOME OTHER TIME...
Great poem about the EM Drive.  Basically using the Socratic method to discuss the EM Drive Developments and how they relate to space flight applications.  I love the analogies.

I knew you were a great Physicist, but I didn't know you also wrote technical poems. 

Reminds me of something that Hemingway wrote, I have learned so much from these NSF threads:

Quote from: Ernest Hemingway, For Whom The Bell Tolls
How little we know of what there is to know. I wish that I were going to live a long time instead of going to die today because I have learned much about life in these four days; more, I think than in all other time. I'd like to be an old man to really know. I wonder if you keep on learning or if there is only a certain amount each man can understand. I thought I knew so many things that I know nothing of. I wish there was more time.
« Last Edit: 06/05/2015 05:26 PM by Rodal »

Offline SeeShells

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As the packet enters just enters the neck and has passed the frustum area, the frustum area starts to increase dramatically in photonic activity even after the light pulse dissipates into the endcap and in one of the last frames you can see the end result.


The laser is not being fired along the axis of the bottle. Look at the arc of light on the table before it strikes the bottle; there is a sphere of light expanding into the scene. It is travelling from bottom left frame to top right into the screen, so the light will strike the cap at the same time as it reaches the far side of the bottle. It just so happens that the bottle is curved there and focuses the light back to the camera. If you watch the progress of the arc of light on the table you can see how it matches up with the shape of the bottle.

Also, the coke bottom cap probably has a reflective white plastic insert, which perhaps sustains that glow.

I just tried to simulate it at home, but all I have is a new bottle of Coke Zero and I ain't drinking that rubbish to demonstrate it  :P
From MIt's site.
Volumetric Propagation: The pulse of light is less than a millimeter long. Between each frame, the pulse travels less than half a millimeter. Light travels a foot in a nanosecond and the duration of travel through a one foot long bottle is barely one nanosecond (one billionth of a second).
http://web.media.mit.edu/~raskar/trillionfps/

Looks like it is traveling through the bottle and starts at the bottom progressing to the top.

Offline SeeShells

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...
As the packet enters just enters the neck and has passed the frustum area, the frustum area starts to increase dramatically in photonic activity even after the light pulse dissipates into the endcap and in one of the last frames you can see the end result.
Shell, thanks again for posting this great video and for sharing your great insights.  And thank you for the still photographs !
Your last comment brings to mind something that we have not discussed in enough detail before: the EM Drive shape used by Shawyer for the Demonstrator (and now by Iulian in his next series of tests) is a little like this soda bottle.  The straight section after the taper is like the straight endcap in the soda bottle.

I think that assuming that the Demonstrator behaves like Shawyer's experimental or like NASA's frustum may be  unwarranted because of this straight section after the taper.  It is not a simple truncated cone anymore.  The natural frequencies and mode shapes are different.  The mode shapes are less similar to a cylinder.
You're correct it may not be warranted because of the dissimilarities, but it also can be looked at where the similarities match. My area of focus was the frustum angles just before the neck. It's representative of one packet of light and maybe that can be likened to one full waveform of Microwave pulsed into an EM cavity. We do not have any Q or real modes, only the reflective angled surfaces acting on the waveform.
With that packet of light within the frustum shaped area and after the packet has passed into the endcap and seen dissipating we still see what looks like an organized and intense display in the frustum area.
It's the closest real visual we can relate to and in my opinion strengthens the actions we see in a tapered cavity with microwaves.

Sorry about my bad English.  I didn't want to mean that anything you wrote was unwarranted.  On the contrary, I find what you wrote to be very appropriate.

I meant to write that others (including me) should not assume that the Demonstrator from Shawyer (and now the new one from Iulian, where he added a straight section) will behave like the other EM Drives.  In previous discussions we were treating the Demonstrator (and the new modified EM Drive by Iulian) as the same as the other EM Drives.

What you wrote is entirely appropriate for the Demonstrator, and who knows may also be for the other EM Drives.   I personally have to give this some more thought :)
Your english is fine and this is a place when discussions take place. I'm sorry I'm a highly visual person and not like you where your strength is in calculations and math. Just different is all and I welcome the different and varied views from everyone as what I see isn't what you or others see.

Offline TheTraveller

I have an Italian coffee maker that looks like that :-[

Me too!
I wonder if one could manufacture an "Espresso EmDrive" that is between Iulian's and the Baby EmDrive in terms of dimensions. :) One could even re-use the hole where the safety valve is as the RF injection hole... And the cylindrical part where the filter is lodged could be used as the range for the variable plate... :D

Who wants to solve the resonance modes analysis for a coffee maker's tank? :P

Edit: I know, I'm joking, but have a look at the rather appropriate shape of the Venus's heating vessel (9):


Smple to calc resonance. Just need dimensions. Hole is easy to fix.
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline Giovanni DS

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Try searching "bicchiere in rame", "caffettiera in rame" o "vaso in rame" on Google images, there are some very interesting results.

Offline rfmwguy

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Final or intermediate amp +39dBm (8 Watts) on its way!

Offline ZuluMoon99

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Hi all

Came across Thread after reading about EmDrive on NextBigFuture. It has been a enjoyable, exciting even to watch the Contributers try and make sense of what the initial test results have come up with. 

With regards to the Search Option I have never tried it, but if one press the Print Button at the top of the page it will call up a single page of the entire Thread to date.

If anyone wants to search for a particular term then its easy to do within your web browser. It will not however replicate the mathematical terms as used by Dr Rodal et al.  The date of the message will however be visible and you can backtrack to that particular one from there.

I have one question I would like to pitch out there if I may.  Why doesnt anyone put together multiple emitters and see if that makes a difference to the detected, if I may call it force?

Kind Regards

Offline SeeShells

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Final or intermediate amp +39dBm (8 Watts) on its way!
Yes, good for you, but it kind of looks like a toaster. ;)

Offline TheTraveller

Final or intermediate amp +39dBm (8 Watts) on its way!

20 Watts: http://sunhans.com/wifi-signal-booster-20w-2-4ghz-40dbm/

Got a link for your 8 Watt unit?

Found one link: http://www.amazon.com/EDUP-EP-AB003-Repeater-Wireless-Broadband/dp/B00OOSRVPQ
Good price.

Review here which questions 8 Watt output:
http://w5vwp.com/wifidevices.shtml
« Last Edit: 06/05/2015 07:33 PM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.”
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline smartcat

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FYI

http://www.amazon.com/The-Theoretical-Minimum-Start-Physics/dp/0465075681

Still trying to find my copy....

I still have mine :)  If that's indeed you, I would be right to have felt that the poem sounded like it was written by him :)) How cool! :)

Offline Star One

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Be careful as people could end up getting this thread trimmed again.
« Last Edit: 06/05/2015 08:00 PM by Star One »

Offline WarpTech

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Apart from the F = P/v (trash Einstein) and F = constant (trash Noether) dynamic models, I did propose a third model which is probably best named "frustrated momentum". In this case, the static F persists until a certain momentum value has been established, equal to an initial impulse given to the system. This momentum having been fully established, F returns to zero Newton.

Shawyer's video seems to fit the "frustrated momentum" bill. McCullough's theory also predicts it IIRC.

I think I found a solution to the Paradox:

The issue of a perpetual motion machine goes away when you accept that if the system has input power and no expulsion of mass, then mass is going to increase with time.

m(t) = m0 + Pin*t/c^2

Therefore, if F/Pin = N/kW is a constant, the acceleration will vary inversely to the mass as a function of time.

a(t) = a0/(1 + (Pin*t)/(m0*c^2))

F = m(t)*a(t) = m0*a0

v(t) = a0*t/(1 + (Pin*t)/(m0*c^2))

Now, the kinetic energy can never exceed the input energy.

Pin*t = m0*c^2 * (sqrt(m0*(a0*t)^2 / m(t)*v(t)^2)  -  1)

It’s similar to special relativity, but for low velocity, taking relativistic mass into consideration. Even though the speed is far from c, mass is still increasing as energy is input to the system and is NOT expelled.

Comments?

Todd

Offline aero

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Well, Energy reaches a maximum, Pin *Q as Po reaches Pin, so mass reaches a maximum, what, like
mo + Pin*Q/c^2 ?
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