As to crowd funding or some kind of prize, I would not be one to say no to that. However any prize should not be limited to this technology because it will eventually be proven to be inconclusive as the measured "thrust" decreases further.
Since Eagleworks started doing real work on the EM Drive, there has been growing interest from outside in finding ways to support their work. So far this has been frustrated largely due to NASA regulations (you can't donate money, equipment, etc. directly to a NASA project). There are some work-arounds ([through the SSI](www.ssi.org)) but these are uninspiring.I have a strong interest in this effort and have been looking at different approaches that might be able to move the work to a more powerful foundation. My sense is that the strongest platform would empower the assembly of the right people to work the problem and resource them with the tools to do it right, without either hamstringing them with bureaucracy or the narrow interest of typical "VC-funded" enterprise.Given that, I can see three more aggressive approaches to funding EM Drive research:1) Convince the Eagleworks crew to take their work outside of NASA and fund the efforts directly. After some research I'm reasonably confident that some form of crowdfunding could be expected to be able to raise $2.5M to $5M for this kind of effort. Would that be enough to a) get the Eagleworks crew feeling safe to make the leap; and b) provide the materials and resources necessary to really kick the tires on this thing? Hard to say - but we should note that an effort like this would also open the doors on allowing interested allies loan equipment. Which is to say that you could likely get a nice multiplier on actual cash contributions. 2) Assemble some other team than the Eagleworks team and fund them to do the research in a similar manner to the above. This could be a sort of public/private combo where two teams collaborate to enhance each-other's work. The gating item here, of course, would be the team - what is the right mix of people to get this done right? 3) Work the other way around - crowd-fund an X-prize for some key milestone in EM Drive research. Say a $5M bounty for the first team that can generate material (say 1N) thrust.Notably, we could really be innovative and use something like a scamfunding mechanism. Why not? A "decentralized collaborative organization" might be precisely the thing necessary to resource research on the EM Drive while keeping the results open to the public.I am in a position that I could organize any of these three and would be delighted to collaborate to make any of them happen. Obviously, #1 is gated by the eagleworks team and #2 is gated by identifying and assembling an alternate team. I'm interested in the thoughts of those folks who have been close to the developments (and the people) so far.
IT IS NOT THE SAME!!!!!!Having reaction mass expelled *changes everything*! For one, now you need to include reaction mass' kinetic energy into energy balance.Constant acceleration reactionless drive of any type violates COE.
Quote from: jordan.greenhall on 05/01/2015 06:55 pmSince Eagleworks started doing real work on the EM Drive, there has been growing interest from outside in finding ways to support their work. So far this has been frustrated largely due to NASA regulations (you can't donate money, equipment, etc. directly to a NASA project). There are some work-arounds ([through the SSI](www.ssi.org)) but these are uninspiring.I have a strong interest in this effort and have been looking at different approaches that might be able to move the work to a more powerful foundation. My sense is that the strongest platform would empower the assembly of the right people to work the problem and resource them with the tools to do it right, without either hamstringing them with bureaucracy or the narrow interest of typical "VC-funded" enterprise.Given that, I can see three more aggressive approaches to funding EM Drive research:1) Convince the Eagleworks crew to take their work outside of NASA and fund the efforts directly. After some research I'm reasonably confident that some form of crowdfunding could be expected to be able to raise $2.5M to $5M for this kind of effort. Would that be enough to a) get the Eagleworks crew feeling safe to make the leap; and b) provide the materials and resources necessary to really kick the tires on this thing? Hard to say - but we should note that an effort like this would also open the doors on allowing interested allies loan equipment. Which is to say that you could likely get a nice multiplier on actual cash contributions. 2) Assemble some other team than the Eagleworks team and fund them to do the research in a similar manner to the above. This could be a sort of public/private combo where two teams collaborate to enhance each-other's work. The gating item here, of course, would be the team - what is the right mix of people to get this done right? 3) Work the other way around - crowd-fund an X-prize for some key milestone in EM Drive research. Say a $5M bounty for the first team that can generate material (say 1N) thrust.Notably, we could really be innovative and use something like a scamfunding mechanism. Why not? A "decentralized collaborative organization" might be precisely the thing necessary to resource research on the EM Drive while keeping the results open to the public.I am in a position that I could organize any of these three and would be delighted to collaborate to make any of them happen. Obviously, #1 is gated by the eagleworks team and #2 is gated by identifying and assembling an alternate team. I'm interested in the thoughts of those folks who have been close to the developments (and the people) so far.Hi all, and Jordan,I read your post with the three options, and I also noticed people favor option #3.I am myself at the moment working on a business plan which quite coincidentally is to propose a large-scale Wi-Fi network in the Port of Rotterdam. I enjoy entrepreneuring, this is my first time so fingers crossed As a business man, I would like to point out that offering a prize will make teams secretive about their work and probably also will mean the working results will be patented. And we all know what that means as far as this revolution becoming public domain....Unless contracts are signed prohibiting this, this will happen (at least I fear it). The problem with contracts is that they are contracts. And we don't really want those.I am not ramming option #3 into the ground, I think it is a good idea initially. But corruption is in the heart of every human I'm afraid, especially when it comes to money.Now I am not completely up to speed ont he tread, so someone else might have pointed this out already. My apologies in that case.
Quote from: gospacex on 05/01/2015 03:16 pmIT IS NOT THE SAME!!!!!!Having reaction mass expelled *changes everything*! For one, now you need to include reaction mass' kinetic energy into energy balance.Constant acceleration reactionless drive of any type violates COE.Does a magsail?
A test that should be performed:NASA Eagleworks should very precisely measure the mass of the test article, and verify that it is not losing any mass while it is generating force.
So let's assume the EM drive works as described and Alpha Centauri can be reached in approximately 130 earth years accounting for acceleration, cruising and deceleration. Can anyone calculate the approximate time dilation spent? (i.e. the theory of relativity that shows time slowing down relative to earth time and stops at light speed.) Obviously gravitational effects on time dilation would probably be impossible to factor in. If time were slowed down enough would it allow reaching Alpha Centauri in a generation or two? Assuming one didn't die of radiation poisoning, a spec of dust piercing a hole through them at that speed, or outright insanity.
A frequent practice in academia especially among experimental groups is collaborative competition whereby the entire collaboration is split into teams which communicate with each other openly about their respective projects, but compete in order to be the first to obtain definitive results. If something like this could be fostered it would be the best option to really finding out if we have something here... but I don't know how one would apply this in principle outside of academia.
Quote from: bad_astra on 05/01/2015 09:13 pmQuote from: gospacex on 05/01/2015 03:16 pmIT IS NOT THE SAME!!!!!!Having reaction mass expelled *changes everything*! For one, now you need to include reaction mass' kinetic energy into energy balance.Constant acceleration reactionless drive of any type violates COE.Does a magsail?A magsail is neither constant acceleration nor reaction-less. It is true that it does not carry its reaction mass with it but it is reacting against an external medium. But then so does a car, airplane or boat.
Quote from: jordan.greenhall on 05/01/2015 06:55 pmSince Eagleworks started doing real work on the EM Drive, there has been growing interest from outside in finding ways to support their work. So far this has been frustrated largely due to NASA regulations (you can't donate money, equipment, etc. directly to a NASA project). There are some work-arounds ([through the SSI](www.ssi.org)) but these are uninspiring.I have a strong interest in this effort and have been looking at different approaches that might be able to move the work to a more powerful foundation. My sense is that the strongest platform would empower the assembly of the right people to work the problem and resource them with the tools to do it right, without either hamstringing them with bureaucracy or the narrow interest of typical "VC-funded" enterprise.Given that, I can see three more aggressive approaches to funding EM Drive research:1) Convince the Eagleworks crew to take their work outside of NASA and fund the efforts directly. After some research I'm reasonably confident that some form of crowdfunding could be expected to be able to raise $2.5M to $5M for this kind of effort. Would that be enough to a) get the Eagleworks crew feeling safe to make the leap; and b) provide the materials and resources necessary to really kick the tires on this thing? Hard to say - but we should note that an effort like this would also open the doors on allowing interested allies loan equipment. Which is to say that you could likely get a nice multiplier on actual cash contributions. 2) Assemble some other team than the Eagleworks team and fund them to do the research in a similar manner to the above. This could be a sort of public/private combo where two teams collaborate to enhance each-other's work. The gating item here, of course, would be the team - what is the right mix of people to get this done right? 3) Work the other way around - crowd-fund an X-prize for some key milestone in EM Drive research. Say a $5M bounty for the first team that can generate material (say 1N) thrust.Notably, we could really be innovative and use something like a scamfunding mechanism. Why not? A "decentralized collaborative organization" might be precisely the thing necessary to resource research on the EM Drive while keeping the results open to the public.I am in a position that I could organize any of these three and would be delighted to collaborate to make any of them happen. Obviously, #1 is gated by the eagleworks team and #2 is gated by identifying and assembling an alternate team. I'm interested in the thoughts of those folks who have been close to the developments (and the people) so far.
Hi all, and Jordan,I read your post with the three options, and I also noticed people favor option #3.I am myself at the moment working on a business plan which quite coincidentally is to propose a large-scale Wi-Fi network in the Port of Rotterdam. I enjoy entrepreneuring, this is my first time so fingers crossed
It is argued that the EM-drive is also reacting against an external medium, in its case the quantum vacuum.
Is there a photo, drawing or block diagram of the current resonator I could see? 50W is lower than I expected to hear but that is still a large amount of power in the RF world and high power design techniques would still need to be employed. FR4 and Teflon would both out-gas to some degree and I don't believe one is necessarily better than the other. For either, the materials would need to be in the chamber for sufficient time to outgas enough prior to applying high power.-JK
Quote from: Mongo62 on 05/01/2015 10:18 pmIt is argued that the EM-drive is also reacting against an external medium, in its case the quantum vacuum.The important question is whether this medium, whatever it is, is fixed (like a plane moving through air and a boat through water) or always seems stationary in your current frame in which case you can get more energy than you put in. This wouldn't kill the idea but it would make it puzzling to only focus on the application as a better ion drive.There comparatively straightforward drives that propose pushing against the interstellar medium (the very thin ionised gas between stars), for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet#Electrostatic_ion_scoopPotentially these could far outperform a rocket because a rocket has to carry its own reaction mass and that gets exponentially bad. Pushing on a fixed medium would allow a mere square relationship between energy and velocity. This velocity is relative the the medium. I think I read somewhere that we are moving through the interstellar medium at about 30km/s but I couldnt find the reference.
To move forward commercially, you would have to either come to an agreement with him/SPR, or wait for his patents to expire, or find some way around them. I'd guess that Guido Fetta has also protected his invention as well
Quote from: jknuble on 05/01/2015 07:02 pmIs there a photo, drawing or block diagram of the current resonator I could see? 50W is lower than I expected to hear but that is still a large amount of power in the RF world and high power design techniques would still need to be employed. FR4 and Teflon would both out-gas to some degree and I don't believe one is necessarily better than the other. For either, the materials would need to be in the chamber for sufficient time to outgas enough prior to applying high power.-JKNot having worked much with high power RF in a vacuum I'll talk about the non-vac testing. Assuming there's some kind of corona, since the cavity is closed, wouldn't the corona be on the inside of the cavity and therefore apply equal force in both directions when the particles bounce off the other side of the cavity? The cavity is sealed so I'm not sure what amount of leakage would be needed to produce this kind of thrust, but the particles released from the surface by the corona effect should be mostly reflected internally keeping all the momentum cancelled out.