Author Topic: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive  (Read 192239 times)

Online Tuts36

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #20 on: 04/29/2015 07:39 PM »
... But wouldn't it be possible to use emDrives terrestrially as well?  Think helicopters with no downdraft, levitating cars or trains.  Heck, why not a emDrive SSTO vehicle?  Are these concepts within the realm of possibility?

Firstly, congrats on your first post!  And to answer your question, it probably wouldn't be cost effective because of the amount of electricity you'd need to generate just to fight earth's gravity.  The amount of thrust per kilowatt is extremely small.  But for space, it'd be worth it not to have to use chemical propellants to move or make orbital corrections.

Online alang

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #21 on: 04/29/2015 07:40 PM »
I think that NasaSpaceflight.com's credibility will survive this. Anyway, I'm an empiricist - fly the thing and we'll see if it's a boondoggle.

Offline rds100

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #22 on: 04/29/2015 07:43 PM »
So when can this be tested in real world conditions, i.e. on a satellite? How large a satellite would be needed? Would a cubesat suffice?


Offline teookie

I think that NasaSpaceflight.com's credibility will survive this. Anyway, I'm an empiricist - fly the thing and we'll see if it's a boondoggle.

Heh, thats why this is so interesting.  We have empirical results form multiple experiments, but no concrete theory as to why/how it works yet.  Stay tuned!

Offline JasonAW3

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #24 on: 04/29/2015 08:05 PM »
Congratulations to all involved in this project!

Tomorrow Mars, next week Alpha Centauri!

(Ok, I'm rushing it a bit, but still...)
My God!  It's full of universes!

Offline indigodarkwolf

Like many folks (I'd hope), I was initially skeptical of the claims that a seemingly closed system could create a measurable thrust due to anything besides experimental error (much like certain claims of low-energy nuclear reactions that caught the attention of mainstream press a few years back). I'm surprised, and excited, that this still has merit.

I'm sure that I have many extremely novice-level questions, but I have two in particular that I'm curious about.

Is the crux of Dr. White's theory that electron/positron pairs from the quantum vacuum are being asymmetrically displaced by the microwave resonance before annihilating with each other to return to the quantum soup? I can roughly follow the analogy of a boat motor pushing against the medium around it, but wouldn't positrons and electrons (even virtual ones, if we're talking about quantum electrodynamics) have equal and opposite reactions to an electric field, resulting in zero net thrust? Is there some reason that the quantum vacuum, or virtual particles from it, would prefer a particular charge to result in thrust?

Possibly related, but I couldn't help but notice at the tail end of the article that the subject switched from discussing thrust of the EM drive design at Eagleworks to discussing the possibility of spacetime distortions due to EM fields varying with time. Are there any theories about why varying EM fields would expand or contract spacetime? Does this relate to where the thrust of the EM drive comes from, or is this just a sneaky little "we're actually wondering if we've accidentally discovered warp drive technology"?

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #26 on: 04/29/2015 08:34 PM »
Excellent article! I have originally been very skeptical of the claims, but I have since become a bit more optimistic. Lets hope all of this will work out.
« Last Edit: 04/30/2015 02:17 AM by Elmar Moelzer »

Offline clongton

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #27 on: 04/29/2015 08:35 PM »
Epic article. I have been following the EM Drive threads sense they began but I must admit that the physics those guys are working thru are beyond my ability to comment intelligently. This article actually pulls a lot of what they were saying together in a way that I can almost understand it. Beyond that I really donít have much more to say Ė I am too blown away. We appear to be at the threshold of an entirely new ear of space transportation and I canít wait to see what becomes of this. In light of the potential payoff in terms of capability and national prestige I really hope the Congress will provide sufficient funding to continue this work at a reasonable pace.

Iíll be going back into lurking mode on the newest thread now, trying my hardest to work thru what those guys are saying. Thank you for doing the article. Very much.
 :)
« Last Edit: 04/29/2015 09:59 PM by Chris Bergin »
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Offline CW

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #28 on: 04/29/2015 08:43 PM »
Epic article Chris. I have been following the EM Drive threads sense they began but I must admit that the physics those guys are working thru are beyond my ability to comment intelligently. This article actually pulls a lot of what they were saying together in a way that I can almost understand it. Beyond that I really donít have much more to say Ė I am too blown away. We appear to be at the threshold of an entirely new ear of space transportation and I canít wait to see what becomes of this. In light of the potential payoff in terms of capability and national prestige I really hope the Congress will provide sufficient funding to continue this work at a reasonable pace.

Iíll be going back into lurking mode on the newest thread now, trying my hardest to work thru what those guys are saying. Thank you for doing the article. Very much.
 :)

I believe that eventually we have to start to think and act as a species, not as individuals or national states. If this technology is what it appears to be, then this knowledge has to be shared with everyone. Which is basically happening right now in those precious NSFF threads.
;D
Reality is weirder than fiction

Offline ThereIWas3

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #29 on: 04/29/2015 08:57 PM »
That last illustration, with the double ring "Enterprise", shows a bluish exhaust or ionization trail.  Maybe I misunderstood something, but I thought the EM drive did not have an exhaust.  Artistic license?  Pre-existing picture?
"If you want to build a ship, donít drum up people to collect wood and donít assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea" - Antoine de Saint-Exupťry

Offline aceshigh

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #30 on: 04/29/2015 09:03 PM »
I just want to point out that the final draft of the 3D Warp Drive, following Dr Sonny White's theories, is quite different. Sonny worked together with the 3D modeller to ensure the spaceship model followed his theory parameters... well, not the entire spaceship of course, just the part about the rings width and how close to the rings the entire ship needs to be (I guess that long cockpit would stay out of the warp bubble)


this is the final image that was circulating all over the internet some months ago (only links because the images are big and destroyed page formating)
http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/14305613177_9ef4f4e69d_o.jpg
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--jf_6nN4K--/huktzitxzojen9b5nvoi.jpg


here, a smaller image




most noticeable of course is the width of the rings... the thinner they are, the more negative mass would be needed according to Sonny White, until you need "Jupiter like negative masses", like in Alcubierre Drive.

compare how thin they are here
http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2011sotl_rademaker_r01.jpg
« Last Edit: 04/29/2015 09:59 PM by Chris Bergin »

Offline Baranquilla

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #31 on: 04/29/2015 09:04 PM »
That article is amazing. Thanks for the effort guys!

When I finish my Geography Master and my Thesis next month, I will apply for the Master of space science at my Uni, this is what put me over the edge. Things like this make me want to be part of the Space Industry!
Because it's there - George Mallory

Offline UneducatedNitwit

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #32 on: 04/29/2015 09:33 PM »
This is great work, guys.  I just finished reading through the threads this morning.  I'm much more impressed now with how thorough and scientific you have been than I was when I first stopped in to investigate this claim.

This article will be an important resource for any journalists who wish to make your story known.  No matter what the ultimate outcome of your work is, even if it is nulled next week, I am glad I spent the time reading what you all have written.

Online tchernik

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #33 on: 04/29/2015 10:02 PM »
Epic article Chris. I have been following the EM Drive threads sense they began but I must admit that the physics those guys are working thru are beyond my ability to comment intelligently. This article actually pulls a lot of what they were saying together in a way that I can almost understand it. Beyond that I really don’t have much more to say – I am too blown away. We appear to be at the threshold of an entirely new ear of space transportation and I can’t wait to see what becomes of this. In light of the potential payoff in terms of capability and national prestige I really hope the Congress will provide sufficient funding to continue this work at a reasonable pace.

I’ll be going back into lurking mode on the newest thread now, trying my hardest to work thru what those guys are saying. Thank you for doing the article. Very much.
 :)

I believe that eventually we have to start to think and act as a species, not as individuals or national states. If this technology is what it appears to be, then this knowledge has to be shared with everyone. Which is basically happening right now in those precious NSFF threads.
;D

Indeed. If these findings are validated, then most countries, enterprises and wealthy citizens would have the recipe for at least a functional space drive.

Of course, you need a lot of work, effort and development to produce even the simplest functional one. But once any open source designs exist (and they would be produced shortly after the initial validation), it should be feasible, for practically anyone to build one (compared with the  relative exclusivity of the existing Space Age technologies, like rockets). Something like the ongoing Drone Age but for space access and ships...

That means the problem of space access and use becomes everyone's, literally and metaphorically.
« Last Edit: 04/29/2015 10:02 PM by tchernik »

Offline RanulfC

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #34 on: 04/29/2015 10:02 PM »
Thank you so much for this article.  I've been aware of the EM Drive threadnought for awhile, and surmised that there was Something There from the sheer enthusiasm therein, but haven't had the time or the brains to make much sense out of it.  Now I at least understand what the excitement is about!

"Threadnought"? Oh I am SO stealing that word!

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline punder

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #35 on: 04/29/2015 10:09 PM »
Indeed. If these findings are validated, then most countries, enterprises and wealthy citizens would have the recipe for at least a functional space drive.

Like Elon Musk.  Hard to imagine that he isn't looking into this to see if it passes his own personal "smell test." 

Offline TomH

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #36 on: 04/29/2015 10:14 PM »
Absolutely astounding. Interesting question about whether this damages the quantum vacuum. The only tiny nit I had was that Ohio class SSBNs launch SLBMs, not ICBMs.

Offline indigodarkwolf

Could someone explain the role of the HDPE dielectric insert that NASA used, and why a magnetron as the microwave source didn't require it?

Offline JackFlash

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #38 on: 04/29/2015 10:21 PM »
I'd be real surprised if Google, Inc. isn't all over this in pretty short order, given their stated intent to mine the asteroid belt.

Who knows, this could be the technical catalyst required to really kick that industry into high gear.

Cheers, MANY Thanks for all the science, and Congrats :)

Online Rodal

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Re: FEATURE ARTICLE: Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
« Reply #39 on: 04/29/2015 10:46 PM »
I just want to point out that the final draft of the 3D Warp Drive, following Dr Sonny White's theories, is quite different. Sonny worked together with the 3D modeller to ensure the spaceship model followed his theory parameters... well, not the entire spaceship of course, just the part about the rings width and how close to the rings the entire ship needs to be (I guess that long cockpit would stay out of the warp bubble)


this is the final image that was circulating all over the internet some months ago (only links because the images are big and destroyed page formating)
http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/14305613177_9ef4f4e69d_o.jpg
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--jf_6nN4K--/huktzitxzojen9b5nvoi.jpg


here, a smaller image




most noticeable of course is the width of the rings... the thinner they are, the more negative mass would be needed according to Sonny White, until you need "Jupiter like negative masses", like in Alcubierre Drive.

compare how thin they are here
http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2011sotl_rademaker_r01.jpg

The reason why the picture shown in the article was chosen is because it is the picture that appears on a NASA report authored by Dr. White. 

The picture you posted in your post, instead, has "All Rights Reserved" by the artist, Mark Rademaker, a term of art used by artists and content creators to prevent ambiguity and clearly spell out the warning that their content cannot be copied freely.  It has not appeared (to my knowledge) in that form, in a NASA report.
« Last Edit: 04/29/2015 11:11 PM by Rodal »

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