Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 2  (Read 2167688 times)

Offline Rodal

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Recent photo of Shawyer standing next to table top EM Drive experiment:

click here for HD picture with details:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-warp-drive-are-two-different-things-nasas-still-working-emdrive-1501268#slideshow/1436361


« Last Edit: 05/15/2015 01:17 AM by Rodal »

Offline phaseshift

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Recent photo of Shawyer standing next to table top EM Drive experiment:

click here for HD picture with details:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-warp-drive-are-two-different-things-nasas-still-working-emdrive-1501268#slideshow/1436361



I see two feeds
"It doesn't have to be a brain storm, a drizzle will often do" - phaseshift

Online WarpTech

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Speaking of safety, do glasses exist that are transparent to visible light and attenuate microwaves?
How about clothing? - chain mail mebbe? :)


LOL! A Chainmail body suit would work quite well I think, but only if it weighs the same as a duck. 

Offline Rodal

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Recent photo of Shawyer standing next to table top EM Drive experiment:

click here for HD picture with details:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-warp-drive-are-two-different-things-nasas-still-working-emdrive-1501268#slideshow/1436361



I see two feeds

One feed a couple of inches from the big end and the other feed a couple of inches from the small end

Offline SeeShells

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Recent photo of Shawyer standing next to table top EM Drive experiment:

click here for HD picture with details:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-warp-drive-are-two-different-things-nasas-still-working-emdrive-1501268#slideshow/1436361



I see two feeds
Interesting isn't it? We just talked about this a few pages ago.

Online WarpTech

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Today i did the first test with the Emdrive (microwave oven magnetron and cooper frustum)
The setup (magnetron and frusum) was suspended in a pendulum.
I applied power for 40 Seconds with no visible thrust. Tomorrow will will try again with the magnetron on the small side. You have any suggestion for what should be the distance from the small side?
After this i will adjust the power to the filament of magnetron and the frequency.
To fine adjust the frequency i thought i can put 2 coils over the magnetron magnets to modify the magnetic field.
My website;
http://www.masinaelectrica.com/emdrive-independent-test/



Well done.

Nicely rolled cavity walls.

Have you tried to calibrate your pendulum test rig by using a small spring scale to see how much force is needed to pull the cavity forward (toward the big end) say 1mm?

Doing this will give you some info on how much force you will need to generate to see some movement.

Maybe I should feel ashamed to propose the following calculation with all those heavy weight equations flying around, but since nobody is taking a bite at it :
a hanging swing pendulum like that has, for small deviations, a linear dependency between force (thrust) F and displacement d  F=(m*g/h)*d  where h is length of strings and m the mass of test article and g local gravity. As a first guess, with m=2kg (or more like 5kg ?) and h=2m that's in the ballpark of 10mN/mm (milliNewton per millimetre) or 10N/m. Quite remarkably similar to Eagleworks balance apparent stiffness, making this mechanical setup basically as sensitive (displacement wrt thrust wise). If a linear displacement sensor of m resolution were used it could probe into N effects, provided proper casing to isolate from drafts and good damping where strings are suspended.

Can you confirm :
- weight of system 2kg, more ?
- height of doorway, or rather length of strings about 2m ?
- graduations marks spacing about 1cm ?

The graduations marks on the video appear about 1cm apart, there is no obvious swing or displacement at power-on visible above, roughly eyeballing 1mm. That gives an upper order of magnitude bound for a thrust (if any) below 10mN/kW for this blazing fast experiment setup. Kudos, and stay safe.

Would suggest 1gf / 10mN would be a really good result from this setup.

Based on his published frustum height dimension of 228.6mm, Rf cavity resonance is 1.311GHz or 2.622GHz, which is a bit high for his magnetron. 244.7mm will give resonance at 2.45GHz. Assuming there are no fudge factors to be applied to parallel plate microwave resonance.

I think Shawyer is weighing it, which may be a better setup because the results can be easily quantified. 10 mN would affect its weight measurably, and if a balance were used, the accuracy could be very high.

Todd D.

Offline LasJayhawk

Recent photo of Shawyer standing next to table top EM Drive experiment:

click here for HD picture with details:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-warp-drive-are-two-different-things-nasas-still-working-emdrive-1501268#slideshow/1436361



I see two feeds
one looks like a feed from the signal generator, the other looks like it is going to a power sensor.

Offline deltaMass

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It looks like 3.5<something> GHz and I also see "FM". Hmm.
I think LasJayhawk is right about the topmost cable being power sensing

Offline LasJayhawk

There is an HP 848xx power sensor just to the left of the scales.

Offline phaseshift

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It looks like 3.5<something> GHz and I also see "FM". Hmm.
I think LasJayhawk is right about the topmost cable being power sensing

He is using an RF generator very similar to this one, goes to 3.2GHz.

http://www.sglabs.it/en/product.php?s=hp-hewlett-packard-agilent-8648c&id=690

The D model goes a little higher.
"It doesn't have to be a brain storm, a drizzle will often do" - phaseshift

Offline deltaMass

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Maybe 3.250 GHz. And the "FM" might simply be "AM"

Offline LasJayhawk

Looks like 3650.3 MHz, 3KHz fm at a 1K rate. But the generators RF out is " off"

Offline phaseshift

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Maybe 3.250 GHz. And the "FM" might simply be "AM"

I blew up the image and I'm pretty sure it says: 3850.36000MHz  FM 3.00kHz -40.0dBm
"It doesn't have to be a brain storm, a drizzle will often do" - phaseshift

Offline zen-in

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Recent photo of Shawyer standing next to table top EM Drive experiment:

click here for HD picture with details:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-warp-drive-are-two-different-things-nasas-still-working-emdrive-1501268#slideshow/1436361



The large blue cross shaped device with the humungous waveguide dummy load is a C band directional coupler.   The type N connector on the rightmost arm would be connected with coax to more attenuators and then a power meter.   Beneath it and obscured by the Agilent  frequency generator is what looks like a C band waveguide switch, for directing the RF to the directional coupler or to the blue waveguide to BNC section with coax attached that is feeding the cavity.   It's possible the device behind the Agilent signal generator may be the business end of a C band TWT but there isn't much room there so this might just be a staged photo-op.
« Last Edit: 05/15/2015 02:52 AM by zen-in »

Offline deltaMass

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An electronic balance isn't a terribly smart idea. But as has been said, this is probably a staged demo.

Offline SeeShells

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Recent photo of Shawyer standing next to table top EM Drive experiment:

click here for HD picture with details:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/emdrive-warp-drive-are-two-different-things-nasas-still-working-emdrive-1501268#slideshow/1436361



The large blue cross shaped device with the humungous waveguide dummy load is a C band directional coupler.   The type N connector on the rightmost arm would be connected with coax to more attenuators and then a power meter.   Beneath it and obscured by the Agilent  frequency generator is what looks like a C band waveguide switch, for directing the RF to the directional coupler or to the blue waveguide to BNC section with coax attached that is feeding the cavity.   It's possible the device behind the Agilent signal generator may be the business end of a C band TWT but there isn't much room there so this might just be a staged photo-op.

It also looks like the end plates maybe flat.

Offline deltaMass

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It looks smaller than EW's frustum, and the frequency therefore makes sense.

Offline Iulian Berca

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Today i did the first test with the Emdrive (microwave oven magnetron and cooper frustum)
The setup (magnetron and frusum) was suspended in a pendulum.
I applied power for 40 Seconds with no visible thrust. Tomorrow will will try again with the magnetron on the small side. You have any suggestion for what should be the distance from the small side?
After this i will adjust the power to the filament of magnetron and the frequency.
To fine adjust the frequency i thought i can put 2 coils over the magnetron magnets to modify the magnetic field.
My website;
http://www.masinaelectrica.com/emdrive-independent-test/



Well done.

Nicely rolled cavity walls.

Have you tried to calibrate your pendulum test rig by using a small spring scale to see how much force is needed to pull the cavity forward (toward the big end) say 1mm?

Doing this will give you some info on how much force you will need to generate to see some movement.

Maybe I should feel ashamed to propose the following calculation with all those heavy weight equations flying around, but since nobody is taking a bite at it :
a hanging swing pendulum like that has, for small deviations, a linear dependency between force (thrust) F and displacement d  F=(m*g/h)*d  where h is length of strings and m the mass of test article and g local gravity. As a first guess, with m=2kg (or more like 5kg ?) and h=2m that's in the ballpark of 10mN/mm (milliNewton per millimetre) or 10N/m. Quite remarkably similar to Eagleworks balance apparent stiffness, making this mechanical setup basically as sensitive (displacement wrt thrust wise). If a linear displacement sensor of m resolution were used it could probe into N effects, provided proper casing to isolate from drafts and good damping where strings are suspended.

Can you confirm :
- weight of system 2kg, more ?
- height of doorway, or rather length of strings about 2m ?
- graduations marks spacing about 1cm ?

The graduations marks on the video appear about 1cm apart, there is no obvious swing or displacement at power-on visible above, roughly eyeballing 1mm. That gives an upper order of magnitude bound for a thrust (if any) below 10mN/kW for this blazing fast experiment setup. Kudos, and stay safe.

The distance between lines is 1cm, tonight i will measure the height and the weight.
If i blow air with my mouth on the frustum, i`m able to visible deviate the pendulum.
I did the same think to a smal scale and i recorded  ~ 1 grame of push

Offline TheTraveller

It is an unplated Flight Thruster. Large red feed at bottom is 3.85GHz Rf input from TWTA and small upper coax is E field sense to variable frequency Rf generator.

Dr. Rodal how did you learn of the article? Did Shawyer give you a heads up?

The data on the laptop, attached, is the Flight Thruster mN to Watts input curve that was published.
« Last Edit: 05/15/2015 06:18 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

Offline TheTraveller

An electronic balance isn't a terribly smart idea. But as has been said, this is probably a staged demo.

Read what Shawyer has written about how he measures thrust using a balance beam and electronic scales. BTW that Flight Thruster would be an excellent Faraday Cage, so don't think much Rf is leaking out.

http://emdrive.com/feasibilitystudy.html He used the same test rig to record data from his Flight Thruster.

That same scale and HP freq generator is being used in the superconducting experiments.
« Last Edit: 05/15/2015 07:08 AM by TheTraveller »
"As for me, I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas.
Herman Melville, Moby Dick

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