Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 2  (Read 2171883 times)

Offline CW

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That's a good point to make: As the hypothesized warp region is dynamically created by the dPhi/dt dynamics, there is no constant warp. Hence, the 'boost factor' is only the time averaged or integrated value of the warp. Larger amounts of particles should hence not be able to accumulate. The real operation of the drive would be much more akin to many small 'boost' periods per second, like small warp jumps. Is that correct?
Reality is weirder than fiction


When considering the use of EM-drives in the making of warp-drives the attached two papers might be of interest.

In the meantime, back to figuring out how to reliably drive an EM-drive...

Edit:  You might also like to read Sonny's Warp-field Mechanics 101 and 102 articles.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130011213.pdf

Best, Paul M.

Paul M,

Thanks a lot. This papers very interesting, but little old. And what about latest papers/presentations which dated 04/04/2015, 04/09/2015 and 04/15/2015. I've seen only few pages from them and it would be very interesting to read full version. Can you share full document, please. In attachment are this pages I've seen.

Best regards,
Nikita Unkovsky
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 10:55 AM by niihelium »

Offline Rodal

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Partial success. I found a unfortunately trimmed edit of a presentation where he started to explain it. But the answer was truncated by the end of the clip.



starts at 53:46 seconds and ends before Dr White has finished his answer.  However it is probable that better clips of this presentation exist. I'll look for one tomorrow.

Great job at finding this video.  You were correct indeed that this question had been asked.  Unfortunately, the video is clipped off before one can hear Dr. White's full answer.

Caveats:

1) Does the video and therefore the question and answer predate the publishing of the paper by University of Sidney ?, Did Dr. White have an opportunity to read the University of Sidney's paper at the time that he answered this question?

http://sydney.edu.au/news/science/397.html?newsstoryid=8790

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.5708

If Dr. White didn't have an opportunity to read the University of Sidney's paper, we cannot really expect Dr. White to give an adequate answer to a paper he hadn't read, as I imagine Dr. White would have to conduct his own computations to arrive at a different answer than the University of Sidney researchers.

2) The University of Sidney researchers are not simply making an argument, they have conducted detailed numerical computations for the field accumulation of different types of particles and published it in a respected peer-reviewed journal:  Physical Review D published by the American Physical Society dealing with  particle physics, field theory, gravitation, and cosmology.

I invite the readers to actually read the paper and comment on the paper's computations and graphs:

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1202.5708
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 12:54 PM by Rodal »

Offline Rodal

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That's a good point to make: As the hypothesized warp region is dynamically created by the dPhi/dt dynamics, there is no constant warp. Hence, the 'boost factor' is only the time averaged or integrated value of the warp. Larger amounts of particles should hence not be able to accumulate. The real operation of the drive would be much more akin to many small 'boost' periods per second, like small warp jumps. Is that correct?
The paper by the University of Sidney researchers carefully examined (with numerical computations) the paths of null and massive particles with a range of initial velocities from -c to c interacting with the warp bubble travelling at a range of globally subluminal and superluminal velocities on both constant and variable velocity paths. 

The dynamics of the warp bubble are nonlinear, hence numerical computations are needed in order to find out what happens to the particles. 

Quote from: Brendan McMonigal
Even for very short journeys the energy released is so large that you would completely obliterate anything in front of you,

It is not clear to me whether Dr. White had an opportunity to review the University of Sidney's work when he answered that question.

Has anyone else (other than the University of Sidney researchers) performed computations and arrived at a different answer?  It would be interesting if other numerical computations have been performed during the last 3 years.
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 01:56 PM by Rodal »

Online Stormbringer

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Dr Rodal:

It was my impression that Dr White made his defense after the critics which probably included the Sidney critques came out; But that is just my memory of it which could be faulty. I am not sure this video i found is even the one my memory is from because i remember him going into not mathematical but verbal detail as to why particle acceleration and photon blue shift were not issues with his warp drive. but it doe give a partial defense.

So here is my question to the forum:  Does anyone recognize  the venue that video was taken from so I can refine my search terms for google? We need a better clip than what i found.
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 01:06 PM by Stormbringer »
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Offline aceshigh

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Dr Rodal:

It was my impression that Dr White made his defense after the critics which probably included the Sidney critques came out; But that is just my memory of it which could be faulty. I am not sure this video i found is even the one my memory is from because i remember him going into not mathematical but verbal detail as to why particle acceleration and photon blue shift were not issues with his warp drive. but it doe give a partial defense.

So here is my question to the forum:  Does anyone recognize  the venue that video was taken from so I can refine my search terms for google? We need a better clip than what i found.

here, itīs about 4 minutes longer. You can jump to 54:00
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 02:11 PM by aceshigh »

Offline Rodal

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Dr Rodal:

It was my impression that Dr White made his defense after the critics which probably included the Sidney critques came out; But that is just my memory of it which could be faulty. I am not sure this video i found is even the one my memory is from because i remember him going into not mathematical but verbal detail as to why particle acceleration and photon blue shift were not issues with his warp drive. but it doe give a partial defense.

So here is my question to the forum:  Does anyone recognize  the venue that video was taken from so I can refine my search terms for google? We need a better clip than what i found.

here, itīs about 4 minutes longer. You can jump to 54:00


Thank you @aceshigh for taking the time to find this clip that provides the full answer, as well as the time and place of the presentation.  From Dr. White's answer, it appears to me (it is always difficult to know since the speaker had only a small amount time to answer) that Dr. White is addressing the papers that were written prior to the University of Sidney's work.  It appears that what is being addressed are the interactions examined by Clark et al. and the brief discussion by  Pfenning and Ford in the Journal Classical and Quantum Gravity, discussing only the interaction between a warp bubble travelling at constant velocity and Eulerian matter, that is matter stationary in the rest frame of the origin/destination of the ship. 

M. J. Pfenning and L. H. Ford, Classical and Quantum Gravity 14, 1743 (1997)

C. Clark, W. A. Hiscock, and S. L. Larson, Classical and Quantum Gravity 16, 3965 (1999)

The questioner did not mention the University of Sidney's research in his question, nor did the questioner have a follow-up question.  Thus it is perfectly reasonable to suppose that Dr. White may have thought that the question was referring to the interactions examined by Clark and briefly by Pfenning and Ford in the late 1990's.

In contrast, the University of Sidney's team appears to be the only one that has provided a detailed analysis of the interactions of null and massive particles with an Alcubierre warp bubble at both constant and variable velocity, via the calculation of representative geodesics through Alcubierre spacetime.  They numerically calculated in detail, the paths of particles with a range of initial velocities from -c to c interacting with the warp bubble travelling at a range of globally subluminal and superluminal velocities on both constant and variable velocity paths.   The dynamics of the warp bubble are nonlinear, hence numerical computations are needed in order to find out what happens to the particles. 



As an aside, that I bet we all agree on, I don't this issue as a critique from the audience and I don't see Dr. White being in a defensive position.  R&D scientists goal is always to find the truth, whatever that is. I see it as an interesting question, and I see Dr. White earnestly answering the question to the best of his knowledge at the time.

I agree with Stormbringer that it would be very interesting to hear Dr. White's opinion on this matter today, and whether he or other researchers have conducted calculations on this matter.
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 03:21 PM by Rodal »

Offline MazonDel

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As far as the issue with the warp drive gamma burst, from my understanding of the topic, the amount of build up has to do with both the average amount of particulate matter in your way (random gasses, dust motes, even possibly small rocks) and the length of time in warp. (Speed might also factor into this, but I cannot remember to be honest.) So a boost through 10,000 miles of space past lunar orbit might not have a whole lot of gamma burst to it despite the density provided from solar winds. But a boost of the full 4.2-ish light years from Alpha Centauri COULD be quite the lethal light show.

As such, it seems like one of ways we'd handle this in the early days is just a matter of protocol. Any approaches to a star system end with the arriving ship coming out of the main leg of their warp fairly off in the distance to harmlessly shove off the burst. The advised distance for this would be an 'outer warp limit'. Until more information is known about the new star system, and the nature of the gamma burst itself, it might also be advisable to attempt to come in pointed to some degree off the target systems ecliptic. Following a short period of observation (verifying your position mostly), one could make a few shorter hops as they come in, to try and keep the burst minimized. Finally, it would seem that unless the 'inner warp limit' around the destination planet was quite large, the advisable thing to do is for the arriving ship to actually come out of warp having driven PAST the planet it is attempting to reach. This ensures that regardless of gamma burst, Earth and its satellites are not in any sort of peril. Speaking of the satellites, my own recommendation for the inner warp limit would be a distance a bit beyond the current useful orbits for satellites, just to ensure we don't bombard our infrastructure with gamma bursts unnecessarily.

In the early days of warp travel, this is probably quite sufficient to deal with any issues. Though as more and more warp craft are built, some amount of effort would need to be expended to deal with orbital traffic control to ensure that an arriving ship doesn't accidentally blast a recently arrived ship.

Chances are decent we'd set up some sort of scheduled window per the ships flight plan such that once you arrive at the outer warp limit, there is a radio ready to chat with you to let you know what flight path to take in and at what time intervals.

Just my thoughts.
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 02:37 PM by MazonDel »

Offline tchernik

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As far as the issue with the warp drive gamma burst, from my understanding of the topic, the amount of build up has to do with both the average amount of particulate matter in your way (random gasses, dust motes, even possibly small rocks) and the length of time in warp. (Speed might also factor into this, but I cannot remember to be honest.) So a boost through 10,000 miles of space past lunar orbit might not have a whole lot of gamma burst to it despite the density provided from solar winds. But a boost of the full 4.2-ish light years from Alpha Centauri COULD be quite the lethal light show.

As such, it seems like one of ways we'd handle this in the early days is just a matter of protocol. Any approaches to a star system end with the arriving ship coming out of the main leg of their warp fairly off in the distance to harmlessly shove off the burst. The advised distance for this would be an 'outer warp limit'. Until more information is known about the new star system, and the nature of the gamma burst itself, it might also be advisable to attempt to come in pointed to some degree off the target systems ecliptic. Following a short period of observation (verifying your position mostly), one could make a few shorter hops as they come in, to try and keep the burst minimized. Finally, it would seem that unless the 'inner warp limit' around the destination planet was quite large, the advisable thing to do is for the arriving ship to actually come out of warp having driven PAST the planet it is attempting to reach. This ensures that regardless of gamma burst, Earth and its satellites are not in any sort of peril. Speaking of the satellites, my own recommendation for the inner warp limit would be a distance a bit beyond the current useful orbits for satellites, just to ensure we don't bombard our infrastructure with gamma bursts unnecessarily.

In the early days of warp travel, this is probably quite sufficient to deal with any issues. Though as more and more warp craft are built, some amount of effort would need to be expended to deal with orbital traffic control to ensure that an arriving ship doesn't accidentally blast a recently arrived ship.

Chances are decent we'd set up some sort of scheduled window per the ships flight plan such that once you arrive at the outer warp limit, there is a radio ready to chat with you to let you know what flight path to take in and at what time intervals.

Just my thoughts.

While I really like the Jerry Pournelle's book-like rules for interstellar travel you describe (it allows interstellar  travel to be full of interplanetary sight-seeing and romantic adventures while traveling), I think it's too early to know if such thing would be necessary.

Some people have pointed out the warp drive source, assuming it is real, may not create a permanent warp field as long as the drive is in operation, as we often assume, but rather it could produce an oscillating one.

In such a case, the 'boost' factor can simply be an average of the oscillating warp field instantaneous boost, and the 'vacuum cleaner' effect would be very limited, because the incoming particles and dust could gather only for very short periods and they would be purged shortly thereafter, when the field becomes low enough in intensity (or briefly goes to zero).

There's still a long way before we know the actual properties of this presumed phenomenon, but we can speculate in the meantime, of course.
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 03:21 PM by tchernik »

Offline JasonAW3

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So it looks like any interest in warp drive has been for now shelved. But then warp drive isn't the EM drive & I imagine it's possible that people were getting the two mixed up and this is an act of clarification.
Your statements are of course your personal view.  I regard the first statement as unwarranted speculation, as the announcement from NASA Glenn just pertains their own center's work on space propulsion, and also because NASA Eagleworks is not conducting engineering of an actual warp-drive vehicle but is instead conducting R&D interferometer tests for the purposes discussed in previous posts.

I regard Glenn's statement as a necessary sanitary statement to answer science-fiction fans that may be unaware of the difference between R&D and actual aerospace-engineering, and therefore may have completely unrealistic short-term expectations.

Personally, I'm awaiting an unequivocal "Chicago Pile" moment, instead of near misses and uncertain results.
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Offline Rodal

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So it looks like any interest in warp drive has been for now shelved. But then warp drive isn't the EM drive & I imagine it's possible that people were getting the two mixed up and this is an act of clarification.
Your statements are of course your personal view.  I regard the first statement as unwarranted speculation, as the announcement from NASA Glenn just pertains their own center's work on space propulsion, and also because NASA Eagleworks is not conducting engineering of an actual warp-drive vehicle but is instead conducting R&D interferometer tests for the purposes discussed in previous posts.

I regard Glenn's statement as a necessary sanitary statement to answer science-fiction fans that may be unaware of the difference between R&D and actual aerospace-engineering, and therefore may have completely unrealistic short-term expectations.

Personally, I'm awaiting an unequivocal "Chicago Pile" moment, instead of near misses and uncertain results.
The Chicago pile (the world's first artificial nuclear reactor) had no radiation shielding and no cooling system of any kind.  Enrico Fermi described the apparatus as "a crude pile of black bricks and wooden timbers." It was made of a large amount of graphite and uranium, with "control rods" of cadmium, indium, and silver. The Atomic Energy Commission later noted, that the real "gamble" was conducting "a possibly catastrophic experiment in one of the most densely populated areas of the nation!"

Thus, Eagleworks probably should adopt a better analogy than the "Chicago Pile moment"   :)

Perhaps we should help them find a more politically acceptable analogy  :)
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 03:41 PM by Rodal »

Offline tchernik

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So it looks like any interest in warp drive has been for now shelved. But then warp drive isn't the EM drive & I imagine it's possible that people were getting the two mixed up and this is an act of clarification.
Your statements are of course your personal view.  I regard the first statement as unwarranted speculation, as the announcement from NASA Glenn just pertains their own center's work on space propulsion, and also because NASA Eagleworks is not conducting engineering of an actual warp-drive vehicle but is instead conducting R&D interferometer tests for the purposes discussed in previous posts.

I regard Glenn's statement as a necessary sanitary statement to answer science-fiction fans that may be unaware of the difference between R&D and actual aerospace-engineering, and therefore may have completely unrealistic short-term expectations.

Personally, I'm awaiting an unequivocal "Chicago Pile" moment, instead of near misses and uncertain results.

For me, it is clear that 'Chicago Pile' moment could come from the spectroscopy studies of the potential warp drive. That is an extremely hard to dismiss bit of physical evidence, given the right experimental conditions and successful replications are there.

This interferometry setup actually strikes me as very similar to the Michelson-Morley experiment, in terms of physical simplicity, hard to ignore results and far reaching implications...

Even if we couldn't use it for making any drive within a century, that bit of evidence is the one that could establish the existence of the phenomenon once and for all.

Edit: I'm aware the White-Juday interferometer experiment was meant to be a 'Chicago Pile' moment since the very beginning, I just want to point out the accidental and serendipitous nature of this new variant of that experiment using Emdrive-like resonating cavities.
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 03:59 PM by tchernik »

Offline cfs

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« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 04:16 PM by cfs »

Online Stormbringer

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I know that Dr white argued in one Q&A session at the end of one of his presentations that the negative energy requirement is satisfied in the QV so he didn't need any real world negative energy to make his micro warp experiment:  but i cannot help thinking that a warp made of real negative energy would be stronger and easier to detect?

I'm thinking about that ring laser thing (from the optical diametric drive research) again where the wave form is formed in such a way that there are always transient negative energy regions in the waveform.

Since the waveform itself travels around in a circle and is effectively infinite in length as opposed to running a few whatever units to a few feet in a linear set up (and there are two of them stacked so as to potentially interact with each other)...

I'm thinking that the ring set up would have a lot more negative stuff with which to produce a stronger space distortion than hoping some is available in the randomness of the vacuum. Would be a better test article... something with a sigma of "all you critics can get out of my face."
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 04:57 PM by Stormbringer »
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Offline CW

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So it looks like any interest in warp drive has been for now shelved. But then warp drive isn't the EM drive & I imagine it's possible that people were getting the two mixed up and this is an act of clarification.
Your statements are of course your personal view.  I regard the first statement as unwarranted speculation, as the announcement from NASA Glenn just pertains their own center's work on space propulsion, and also because NASA Eagleworks is not conducting engineering of an actual warp-drive vehicle but is instead conducting R&D interferometer tests for the purposes discussed in previous posts.

I regard Glenn's statement as a necessary sanitary statement to answer science-fiction fans that may be unaware of the difference between R&D and actual aerospace-engineering, and therefore may have completely unrealistic short-term expectations.

Personally, I'm awaiting an unequivocal "Chicago Pile" moment, instead of near misses and uncertain results.
The Chicago pile (the world's first artificial nuclear reactor) had no radiation shielding and no cooling system of any kind.  Enrico Fermi described the apparatus as "a crude pile of black bricks and wooden timbers." It was made of a large amount of graphite and uranium, with "control rods" of cadmium, indium, and silver. The Atomic Energy Commission later noted, that the real "gamble" was conducting "a possibly catastrophic experiment in one of the most densely populated areas of the nation!"

Thus, Eagleworks probably should adopt a better analogy than the "Chicago Pile moment"   :)

Perhaps we should help them find a more politically acceptable analogy  :)

Pile of Awesome moment? ;)
Reality is weirder than fiction

Offline Rodal

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...

I'm thinking about that ring laser thing (from the optical diametric drive research) again where the wave form is formed in such a way that there are always transient negative energy regions in the waveform.

...
What ring laser thing possessing " always transient negative energy regions in the waveform" are you referring to?

Link please  :)

Online Stormbringer

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...

I'm thinking about that ring laser thing (from the optical diametric drive research) again where the wave form is formed in such a way that there are always transient negative energy regions in the waveform.

...
What ring laser thing possessing " always transient negative energy regions in the waveform" are you referring to?

Link please  :)

http://phys.org/news/2013-10-optical-diametric.html

http://www.creol.ucf.edu/Research/Publications/7155.pdf

http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v9/n12/full/nphys2777.html?WT.ec_id=NPHYS-201312

"Always transient"  refers to the way squeezed light makes negative energy. It's always for a tiny fraction of the over all cycle and the positive side always dwarfs it. But in a circular track... there should be a tiny bit present at all times and in all parts of the track. Or maybe not as tiny as it would be in a finite length course and there are two circular stacked circular tracks in those articles. Maybe the two fields can constructively reinforce the negative components or destructively interfere with the positive portion selectively. i don't know much about the physics. I'm just "using the force."

EDIT:  So here is a question I have about squeezed light. what would happen if a portion of the circular track was made to slow light down? I have read about certain research slowing light down under the SOL in a vacuum. You have two rings... one of the trackways could have unimpeded squeezed light and the other had at least a portion with a go slow zone. Could the tracks be juxtaposed in such a way that the negative regions of the waveform were close enough to sum together? And could there be a tidal pile up of negative energy caused by the go slow zone?

« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 06:54 PM by Stormbringer »
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Offline Star-Drive

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When considering the use of EM-drives in the making of warp-drives the attached two papers might be of interest.

In the meantime, back to figuring out how to reliably drive an EM-drive...

Edit:  You might also like to read Sonny's Warp-field Mechanics 101 and 102 articles.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130011213.pdf

Best, Paul M.

Paul M,

Thanks a lot. This papers very interesting, but little old. And what about latest papers/presentations which dated 04/04/2015, 04/09/2015 and 04/15/2015. I've seen only few pages from them and it would be very interesting to read full version. Can you share full document, please. In attachment are this pages I've seen.

Best regards,
Nikita Unkovsky

Nikita:

Dr. White's latest Warp Field Interferometer (WFI) results are just in PowerPoint file format at the moment, for they are just used for keeping the Eagleworks' technical and management teams aware of the latest developments.  So if you want a copy of same you need to send a note to Dr. White asking for it.  In the meantime Dr. White cautioned me yesterday that I need to be more careful in declaring we've observed the first lab based space-time warp signal and rather say we have observed another non-negative results in regards to the current still in-air WFI tests, even though they are the best signals we've seen to date.  It appears that whenever we talk about warp-drives in our work in a positive way, the general populace and the press reads way too much into our technical disclosures and progress.

Next find attached Sonny's latest WFI data set number-1 analysis that utilizes all 28.5k period samples instead of just a very few arbitrarily selected pixel addresses we used before so as to minimize the compute times.  And I'm glad that Dr. White was an ex-game programmer in his youth because his programming expertise was really needed for this problem to be able to analysis this large set in less than the 100 years his initial cut at is indicated.  In fact it is now running in less than 4-to-6 hours on a Windows 7.0 PC with an Intel i5 in it.  Be that as it may, you will note that the assumed in-air space-time compression signal is still there with now a much improved signal to noise ratio than the previous example I provided.

Best,  Paul M.
Star-Drive

Offline Rodal

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When considering the use of EM-drives in the making of warp-drives the attached two papers might be of interest.

In the meantime, back to figuring out how to reliably drive an EM-drive...

Edit:  You might also like to read Sonny's Warp-field Mechanics 101 and 102 articles.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130011213.pdf

Best, Paul M.

Paul M,

Thanks a lot. This papers very interesting, but little old. And what about latest papers/presentations which dated 04/04/2015, 04/09/2015 and 04/15/2015. I've seen only few pages from them and it would be very interesting to read full version. Can you share full document, please. In attachment are this pages I've seen.

Best regards,
Nikita Unkovsky

Nikita:

Dr. White's latest Warp Field Interferometer (WFI) results are just in PowerPoint file format at the moment, for they are just used for keeping the Eagleworks' technical and management teams aware of the latest developments.  So if you want a copy of same you need to send a note to Dr. White asking for it.  In the meantime Dr. White cautioned me yesterday that I need to be more careful in declaring we've observed the first lab based space-time warp signal and rather say we have observed another non-negative results in regards to the current still in-air WFI tests, even though they are the best signals we've seen to date.  It appears that whenever we talk about warp-drives in our work in a positive way, the general populace and the press reads way too much into our technical disclosures and progress.

Next find attached Sonny's latest WFI data set number-1 analysis that utilizes all 28.5k period samples instead of just a very few arbitrarily selected pixel addresses we used before so as to minimize the compute times.  And I'm glad that Dr. White was an ex-game programmer in his youth because his programming expertise was really needed for this problem to be able to analysis this large set in less than the 100 years his initial cut at is indicated.  In fact it is now running in less than 4-to-6 hours on a Windows 7.0 PC with an Intel i5 in it.  Be that as it may, you will note that the assumed in-air space-time compression signal is still there with now a much improved signal to noise ratio than the previous example I provided.

Best,  Paul M.

1) Labeling correction

Should read:

On/Off Sample Period Frames T = 1.53 sec
f = 1/T = 0.654 Hz

2) When plotting the FFT Spectral Power Density, I only plot it up to the Nyquist frequency (in this case 5 Hz), because, as pointed out in the figure, everything at a higher frequency than the the Nyquist frequency has aliasing

« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 07:28 PM by Rodal »

Online RotoSequence

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Paul M,

Are there any prepared graphics of null runs with the warp interferometry experiment?

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