Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 2  (Read 2101563 times)

Offline Giovanni DS

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Oh there is also another free one, I know the guy maintaining it... very well: http://www.chibios.org

Offline cfs

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Ubuntu RTOS hasn't been mentioned yet: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime
As actively maintained as RHEL, though with different package management and (slightly) different options in terms of drivers and features.

RHEL/CentOS is typically the choice for servers as they tend to focus more on dependability rather than pushing out the latest features.

Offline Mulletron

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I never really got interested in Warp drive because I considered that to be a whole other can of worms (aka not even close to being the same thing as Emdrive), not to mention the whole idea just seemed way way out there.

So I asked myself, why is Eagleworks treating their Q-thruster like it is a warp experiment? This question cropped up before when the video below surfaced a few months ago. Specifically the question and answer at 56:40.



So I filed that one away for later. I didn't really get it. Boy was I in for a surprise. Check out this quote:

Quote
An actual laboratory demonstration of a metamaterial warp drive space time would require a non-reciprocal bi-anisotropic metamaterial, in which both spatial and time reversal symmetries are broken.
http://arxiv.org/abs/1009.5663
http://beforeitsnews.com/science-and-technology/2011/08/updated-paper-httparxiv-orgftparxivpapers10091009-5663-pdf-984797.html

There's the old PT symmetry thing all over again! The same old themes (magnetoelectrics, broken PT symmetries) which were uncovered while trying to figure out Emdrives... are there for warp drive too. As far as I can tell, the only difference between the two is whether the spacetime distortion is small and inside the ship or large and around the ship.

It is becoming clear that we need to think of the QV as a polarizable dielectric medium. Just like others have said. Even the mainstream says the QV is a dielectric. So while it is undeniable that GR and SR are correct as always, there is ample evidence which supports the notion that the classical spacetime we all know and love (flat and curved spacetime) is emergent from a more fundamental quantum chaos underneath, and that chaos can be engineered.

@Aceshigh posted a video a few days ago of the 2013 Icarus Interstellar conference day 3.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.msg1362005#msg1362005

At the 1:31:00 mark there is a presentation by Dr. Hal Puthoff. I've always been a bit skeptical of his claims. I've read his work and took note of what he was saying but I had no evidence to suggest he might be onto something. A quick Google search reveals that he gets a bad rap from many, so that turned me away in search of my own ideas on how things work. Whether he is fully correct or not, I'm going to pay closer attention to what he has to say from now on.

Some papers we've discussed before on here, some of which were referenced in the Starship Conference presentation mentioned above:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.6165
http://arxiv.org/abs/1005.0131
http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.2184

This is all going to fall on experiment. The team I mentioned before who observed non-reciprocity of the velocity of light, http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.0712 predict the same for the vacuum. So if a team finds the same effect in vacuum, we might be in business.

Quote
Our long term goal is to search for
the magneto-electric non-reciprocity of quantum vacuum
[21, 28], which is approximately 7 × 108 times smaller
than what we have measured. Its detection would require
fields as high as B = 15 T and E = 20 MV/m, a better
cavity with a finesse of 200 000 and a noise level corre-
sponding to the shot-noise level with an injected laser
power near 50 mW. All these performances have already
been achieved separately, but bringing them together is
obviously a very ambitious challenge.







« Last Edit: 04/23/2015 02:25 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Online dustinthewind

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I found it interesting that in the video posted by aceshigh, starship congress the engineer concept of warp, youtube time:(1:44:17), -->the object grows brighter and more energetic and reduces in mass.  <--my paraphrasing.  The concept presented was reducing the space time dielectric constant and even shows the Alcubierre bubble. 

Maybe it is just me but this appears to contrast with the concept in the paper posted by Star-Drive.  Paper : * White & Davis_STAIF_conference_2.pdf [link: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36313.0;attach=825790 ]

quote from paper: "Hence, an Earthbound coordinate observer will most likely see a dimming effect when viewing the ALIF as its spacetime expansion boost increases. Similarly, the ALIF will see his/her surrounding universe grow dimmer and dimmer as photons emitted on-brane cannot reach the now off-brane ALIF."

Question 1: So are we looking at two different concepts of warp (separate concepts) or am I am getting confused? 
Later edit: I later realized the engineer in the video may be talking about an object existing in the negative energy density space (glows brightly) where as in the paper the Alcubierre bubble (the ship dims) the ship resides inside the flat space time but is surrounded by a gradient of space density. 

In the back of my mind the concept I presented of two resonating cavities 1/4 [/lambda] out of phase and one doing negative work while the other positive work makes me question if it could end up also pumping space time or casmir vaccuum energy.  When I look at the ring around the ship [in the presentations] and the gradient in the Alcubierre bubble it makes me think of the ring as being a space time pump so I do wonder at the possibility of a relationship if it works.  I suspect something similar to two or more currents out of phase in space and time in the cavity but remain unsure.  It would just be impressive enough if we could beat, by a large factor, the best ion engines out there but some times one idea lead will lead to others. 

Question 2: One more question I have is the space time contractions they are observing in the cavity.  Is it constant and scales with power as the device is powered up?  Another way of asking this is if the fringes shift with power and then shift back as power is reduced.  Or is it that they are observing pulsating space time where the fringes are osculating maybe around the microwave frequency?

Edit later: thanks Mulltron for the video.  It may have answered  my question.  It looks like from the video they are talking about a constant space time contraction in the experiment detected rather than pulsations at a microwave frequency. 

@Paul March: since the warp drive is to be considered then as ontopic in this thread, how exactly does Dr. White theories deal with time-travel to the past in superluminal speeds? I guess that would be a major point of any space travel related applications of a warp drive.

I remember that in Starship Congress 2013 (at which Dr. White made the first talk on Day 3 – Interstellar Future (50 years +) | Saturday August 17th, 2013 - Sonny White, “Warp Field Physics: an Update” ), the talk just after Dr. White's, was by Dr Eric Davis, that was quite mind bending, where he talks about tipping the light cone in Warp Drives (I guess that would be space-time engineering just like the Warp Drive itself?) so inside it's light cone the ship is not travelling to the past and thus there is no worry of causality violations.

Is that a view that Dr White (or yourself) agree with? Or are you sure a Warp Drive will certainly result in travel to the past?

To anyone wanting to see Dr Eric Davis talk, here is the video of the full Day 3... Dr Eric Davis talk starts at 58:00.


I guess it´s on-topic because it´s intimally related to the Warp Drive by Dr White.

the topic is "light cone gymnastics"  (really) ;D

other quote

I thought I would post a graphic I made of a light cone.  If I am correct for normal warp the cone just flattens suggesting that the observed mote/traveler could move some maximum distance from their original location at some later time.   

I would imagine a tilted warp cone might happen where space is swirling around a rotating black hole and drags objects around it.  If that space reaches light speed or above then the space moving away looks like an event horizon while the space moving towards us is blue-shifted in spectrum.  If the space is moving away at less than c then it should be red-shifted.  In that case if one sits still in moving space then they are moving so the axis is tilted.  (I guess if our space is expanding this suggest we might have tilted light cones?) I don't know that if the central axis is tilted beyond 45 degrees that the light cone would necessarily cross the plane.  I would think light would appear to move at 2*c, 2=m, from an outside observer in one direction and not move at all the other direction m=0 (space is moving against it and it gets nowhere).  That would suggest some distortion of our light cone but that it's not crossing the plane where the slope m = infinity. 

I would think it would require infinite energy to get to warp infinity.  Hopefully I'm not too far off here. 

When considering the use of EM-drives in the making of warp-drives the attached two papers might be of interest.

In the meantime, back to figuring out how to reliably drive an EM-drive...

Edit:  You might also like to read Sonny's Warp-field Mechanics 101 and 102 articles.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20130011213.pdf

Best, Paul M.

other


...  If I were going to test them for what I am talking about I would take two cylindrical cavities with the radiation input of one cavity able to be phase shifted and amplified.  Put the two cavities flat plates next to each other so that the imaginary magnetic field (non radiating [decaying]) overlaps.  The separation would be about 1/4 lambda separation in air for the frequency chosen.  My guess is the signal of one would bleed into the other cavity which would seem to push them to be matched up in phase and not perfectly out of phase %pi/2.  They are supposed to be out of phase %pi/2 so you increase the phase and amplitude of the cavity that is working against the other till it seems they are properly out of phase 1/4 lambda with matching amplitude.  You might install a current sensor on each cavity to make sure you know the exact current phase and amplitude.  Maybe then its possible to stack the cavities on top of each other one after the other all being off in phase 0, %pi/2, %pi, 3%pi/2 ect...
« Last Edit: 04/23/2015 05:56 AM by dustinthewind »

Offline eagleon

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_vortex_cannon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_ring
Just a crazy idea... but your apparatus looks like a toy I had when I was a kid. Toroidal vortex, with a propagating energy pressure gradient dipping into the negative at the top maybe? I'm sorry if I sound like a kook, but it'd be too great if I was on to something.

Offline Stormbringer

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thinking that some devices present at least transient negative energy is not ko0ky k0oky. It's accepted physics.

That photonic diametric drive thing makes use of it. Squeezed light (i think.) But in a circular ring there would be more of it present more often. they used two of them stacked on top of one another. In fact it looks a little like that diagram people have been posting here lately.

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Offline Mulletron

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From Cuban researchers. Both deal with QV interaction with magnetic fields:

So this makes 4 teams I've found who predict momentum transfer from the QV.

Quote
Our results show that quantum vacuum in a constant magnetic field
may exert pressures, either positive or negative, which means a transfer of momentum
from vacuum to real particles or macroscopic bodies

The links I got these from are down most of the time, so I had to upload them.
ftp://www.astro.iag.usp.br/pub/dalpino/Proceedings/CD-ROM/014-Rodriguez_Quertz.pdf
http://www.if.ufrgs.br/hadrons/HRojas1.pdf



Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Star-Drive

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I never really got interested in Warp drive because I considered that to be a whole other can of worms (aka not even close to being the same thing as Emdrive), not to mention the whole idea just seemed way way out there.

So I asked myself, why is Eagleworks treating their Q-thruster like it is a warp experiment? This question cropped up before when the video below surfaced a few months ago. Specifically the question and answer at 56:40.



So I filed that one away for later. I didn't really get it. Boy was I in for a surprise. Check out this quote:

Quote
An actual laboratory demonstration of a metamaterial warp drive space time would require a non-reciprocal bi-anisotropic metamaterial, in which both spatial and time reversal symmetries are broken.
http://arxiv.org/abs/1009.5663
http://beforeitsnews.com/science-and-technology/2011/08/updated-paper-httparxiv-orgftparxivpapers10091009-5663-pdf-984797.html

There's the old PT symmetry thing all over again! The same old themes (magnetoelectrics, broken PT symmetries) which were uncovered while trying to figure out Emdrives... are there for warp drive too. As far as I can tell, the only difference between the two is whether the spacetime distortion is small and inside the ship or large and around the ship.

It is becoming clear that we need to think of the QV as a polarizable dielectric medium. Just like others have said. Even the mainstream says the QV is a dielectric. So while it is undeniable that GR and SR are correct as always, there is ample evidence which supports the notion that the classical spacetime we all know and love (flat and curved spacetime) is emergent from a more fundamental quantum chaos underneath, and that chaos can be engineered.

@Aceshigh posted a video a few days ago of the 2013 Icarus Interstellar conference day 3.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.msg1362005#msg1362005

At the 1:31:00 mark there is a presentation by Dr. Hal Puthoff. I've always been a bit skeptical of his claims. I've read his work and took note of what he was saying but I had no evidence to suggest he might be onto something. A quick Google search reveals that he gets a bad rap from many, so that turned me away in search of my own ideas on how things work. Whether he is fully correct or not, I'm going to pay closer attention to what he has to say from now on.

Some papers we've discussed before on here, some of which were referenced in the Starship Conference presentation mentioned above:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.6165
http://arxiv.org/abs/1005.0131
http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.2184

This is all going to fall on experiment. The team I mentioned before who observed non-reciprocity of the velocity of light, http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.0712 predict the same for the vacuum. So if a team finds the same effect in vacuum, we might be in business.

Quote
Our long term goal is to search for
the magneto-electric non-reciprocity of quantum vacuum
[21, 28], which is approximately 7 × 10^8 times smaller
than what we have measured. Its detection would require
fields as high as B = 15 T and E = 20 MV/m, a better
cavity with a finesse of 200,000 and a noise level corre-
sponding to the shot-noise level with an injected laser
power near 50 mW. All these performances have already
been achieved separately, but bringing them together is
obviously a very ambitious challenge.


Mulletron:

Are the above E and B-field conditions just for the dc case?  If they are, their absolute magnitudes can be greatly reduced for the same vacuum compression if they use repetitive and very fast rise time ac signals instead of dc per Dr. White's Q-V conjecture.  That is the core truth behind what we are trying to do for both the Q-Thrusters and warp-drives, for the magnitude of the space-time bending effect or polarization of the quantum vacuum per Hal Puthoff is the product of the absolute magnitude of the applied E&M fields, AND their time rate of change of energy density phi with both dphi/dt and dphi^2/dt^2 terms driving the magnitude of the vacuum compression effect.

Best,  Paul M.   
Star-Drive

Offline Mulletron

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They report using permanent magnets for B and a sinusoidally driven HVPS for E.


Recent discussion wrt connecting EM to warp reminded me of this. His youtube channel is amazing. I wish we had him here in this thread.

« Last Edit: 04/23/2015 05:52 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Online dustinthewind

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They report using permanent magnets for B and a sinusoidally driven HVPS for E.


Recent discussion wrt connecting EM to warp reminded me of this. His youtube channel is amazing. I wish we had him here in this thread.



This is the same person doing the video I posted in the thread, "http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36911.0".  It was this video here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=13&v=ZqC3AVcuFaE .  I messaged him over youtube and he responded.  You could message him and invite him to the thread I suppose. 
« Last Edit: 04/23/2015 06:11 AM by dustinthewind »

Online Rodal

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They report using permanent magnets for B and a sinusoidally driven HVPS for E.


Recent discussion wrt connecting EM to warp reminded me of this. His youtube channel is amazing. I wish we had him here in this thread.



Is the following just "defined"

β f = - h /(1 - h )

without addressing what are the conditions for this "definition" to hold, and what is the validity of this "definition" ?

and then predictive conclusions are extracted from plugging in this "definition" into the exact solution?
« Last Edit: 04/23/2015 02:24 PM by Rodal »

Offline Stormbringer

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Has this been posted here yet?

http://www.emdrive.com/

There are links and such. Some of them might be new.
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Offline Star One

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Has this been posted here yet?

http://www.emdrive.com/

There are links and such. Some of them might be new.

Are you referring to this?

Quote
The EmDrive

A New Concept in Spacecraft Propulsion

Satellite Propulsion Research Ltd (SPR Ltd) a small UK based company, has demonstrated a remarkable new space propulsion technology. The company has successfully tested both an experimental thruster and a demonstrator engine which use patented microwave technology to convert electrical energy directly into thrust. No propellant is used in the conversion process. Thrust is produced by the amplification of the radiation pressure of an electromagnetic wave propagated through a resonant waveguide assembly.

Offline JasonAW3

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So it looks like my conjecture that the device is creating some sort of spatial warp field is likely?

Well, color me surprised!  I used Occam's Razor for that conjecture.  All the other explanations seemed too complex, so, I figured that the simplest explanation was a warping of space.  The conditions seemed to follow some of what I read about Einstein’s speculations about space warps and something I'd read about gravity and magnetism likely being related.  (Wish I could remember where I read that though).
« Last Edit: 04/24/2015 03:25 PM by JasonAW3 »
My God!  It's full of universes!

Online Rodal

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Has this been posted here yet?

http://www.emdrive.com/

There are links and such. Some of them might be new.
Not in that Wikipedia article, instead poster  "Quantanew" posted the interferometer information from the NSF EM Drive thread (including the images from Paul March) in this Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White%E2%80%93Juday_warp-field_interferometer
« Last Edit: 04/23/2015 05:25 PM by Rodal »

Offline Stormbringer

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Just the page and the links in general; nothing specific. I was just wondering if it had been posted here yet.
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Offline Star One

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Just the page and the links in general; nothing specific. I was just wondering if it had been posted here yet.

I've known of the website but are those particular contents new then?

Online tchernik

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Just the page and the links in general; nothing specific. I was just wondering if it had been posted here yet.

I've known of the website but are those particular contents new then?

AFAIK, no. The links on the front page are ordered chronologically from newer at the top to older at the bottom, and the last update was on January of this year.

Offline Star One

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Just the page and the links in general; nothing specific. I was just wondering if it had been posted here yet.

I've known of the website but are those particular contents new then?

AFAIK, no. The links on the front page are ordered chronologically from newer at the top to older at the bottom, and the last update was on January of this year.

Thanks. Wasn't sure if it had all just been updated with announcements from various  dates.

Online Rodal

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Concerning "warp-drive", please notice that the following was placed today on NASA Glenn's website ( http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/warp.html ):

Bold added for emphasis:
Quote
Is Warp Drive Real?
Ever since the sound barrier was broken, people have turned their attention to how we can break the light speed barrier.  But “Warp Drive” or any other term for faster-than-light travel still remains at the level of speculation.

The bulk of scientific knowledge concludes that it’s impossible, especially when considering Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. There are certainly some credible concepts in scientific literature, however it’s too soon to know if they are viable.

Science fiction writers have given us many images of interstellar travel, but traveling at the speed of light is simply imaginary at present.

In the meantime, science moves forward.  And while NASA is not pursuing interstellar flight, scientists here continue to advance ion propulsion for missions to deep space and beyond using solar electric power. This form of propulsion is the fastest and most efficient to date.

There are many “absurd” theories that have become reality over the years of scientific research.  But for the near future, warp drive remains a dream.

If you would like to know more about the theories of interstellar flight, you should visit the Tau Zero Foundation.  Marc Millis, a former NASA Glenn physicist, founded the organization to consider revolutionary advancements in propulsion.

Past articles of warp drive found at this location have been archived.

Nancy Smith Kilkenny, SGT Inc.
NASA's Glenn Research Center

Last Updated: April 23, 2015
Editor: NASA Administrator

also notice that the original NASA Glenn webpages on

Alcubierre’s "Warp Drive"

and on

Worm Hole transportation

at http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/warpstat_prt.htm

have been deleted and they have now been re-directed to the above message
« Last Edit: 04/23/2015 06:55 PM by Rodal »

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