Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 2  (Read 2105310 times)

Offline MichaelBlackbourn

  • Member
  • Posts: 41
  • Liked: 63
  • Likes Given: 0
Yah, the EM and ME thing is important. ME generally refers to mach effect (Woodward)   mass fluctuation thrusters.

Online eischei

  • Member
  • Posts: 9
  • Bavaria
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 11
Just thought a little down the road:

Resonant chambers are used to induce plasma discharges in an decreased pressure environment but discharges are also possible as parasitic phenomenons in highpower waveguides and called arcs.

Would it be possible to use an other dielectric medium than air? Because otherwise you maybe would have to cool the inner gas, or have to used a filled / completely evacuated chamber. And although the latter shouldn't be a problem in space it would be more convinient to have a device that isn't dependent on spaceconditions.

If for example aluminum nitride could be used, there could be also the advantage of the high heatconductivity and thermal stability of the whole system as well as the low thermal elongation factor. The surface could be coated with any metal that is best for the electrical conductivity by PVD.

Regards,

Sepp

Offline Star-Drive

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 825
  • TX/USA
  • Liked: 866
  • Likes Given: 9
Dr. Rodal:

I missed your question last night on whether the warp-field interferometer cylindrical cavity had any dielectric inside of it.  The answer is no it does not, except for the nanometers thick aluminum oxide coating that bare aluminum develops as soon as it is exposed to the oxygen in the air.

Next you asked about whether there where optical windows cut into the center of the cylindrical resonant cavity end caps or not.  Well, yes there has to be optical window holes for the 633nm laser light to pass through the 7.23cm gap between the endplates of the aluminum cylindrical cavity.  We also added two, three inch long, 0.50" OD by 0.25" (6.35mm) ID threaded aluminum tubes to the resonant cavity endplates, see attached picture, that function as two RF chokes that keep the 1.48 GHz RF from leaking into the lab area.  So the laser light passes through these RF choke tubes and the cylindrical cavity where the peak ac E-field of 900kV/m is present along the entire 7.23 cm long laser path while in the resonant cavity and an exponentially reducing E-field in the RF chokes since these are cylindrical waveguides well into their cutoff mode since the RF wavelength at 1.48 GHz is 202.7mm. 

BTW, we are going to add optical borosilicate telescope grade flat windows to the ends of the RF chokes when we get around to pulling a vacuum in this 1.48 GHz resonant cavity.

Next a clarification.  We used a cylindrical cavity for the warp-field interferometer instead of a frustum shape because we didn't want to create a force with this unit, but instead we needed just a large densification of the Q-V along the active path length of the laser beam while it was traversing the resonant cavity's centerline volume.  And this is the main difference between the Q-thruster and a warp-drive.  In Dr. White's warp-field conjecture you first have to have an Q-Thruster derived acceleration vector to work on and then you engage the a toroidal warp-field around your accelerating vehicle that then multiples the initial Q-Thruster provided velocity vector by the selected warp-factor.   Thus if you have an initial velocity of say 0.01c towards Alpha Centauri with a warp factor of 1,000, your effective velocity becomes 10c while the warp-drive is engaged.

Best, Paul M.
« Last Edit: 04/19/2015 04:45 PM by Star-Drive »
Star-Drive

Offline CW

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 187
  • Germany
  • Liked: 141
  • Likes Given: 51
Dr. Rodal:

I missed your question last night on whether the warp-field interferometer cylindrical cavity had any dielectric inside of it.  The answer is no it does not, except for the nanometers thick aluminum oxide coating that bare aluminum develops as soon as it is exposed to the oxygen in the air.

Next you asked about whether there where optical windows cut into the center of the cylindrical resonant cavity end caps or not.  Well, yes there has to be optical window holes for the 633nm laser light to pass through the 7.23cm gap between the endplates of the aluminum cylindrical cavity.  We also added two, three inch long, 0.50" OD by 0.25" (6.35mm) ID threaded aluminum tubes to the resonant cavity endplates, see attached picture, that function as two RF chokes that keep the 1.48 GHz RF from leaking into the lab area.  So the laser light passes through these RF choke tubes and the cylindrical cavity where the peak ac E-field of 900kV/m is present along the entire 7.23 cm long laser path while in the resonant cavity and an exponentially reducing E-field in the RF chokes since these are cylindrical waveguides well into their cutoff mode since the RF wavelength at 1.48 GHz is 202.7mm. 

BTW, we are going to add optical borosilicate telescope grade flat windows to the ends of the RF chokes when we get around to pulling a vacuum in this 1.48 GHz resonant cavity.

Next a clarification.  We used a cylindrical cavity for the warp-field interferometer instead of a frustum shape because we didn't want to create a force with this unit, but instead we needed just a large densification of the Q-V along the active path length of the laser beam while it was traversing the resonant cavity's centerline volume.  And this is the main difference between the Q-thruster and a warp-drive.  In Dr. White's warp-field conjecture you first have to have an Q-Thruster derived acceleration vector to work on and then you engage the a toroidal warp-field around your accelerating vehicle that then multiples the initial Q-Thruster provided velocity vector by the selected warp-factor.   Thus if you have an initial velocity of say 0.01c towards Alpha Centauri with a warp factor of 1,000, your effective velocity becomes 10c while the warp-drive is engaged.

Best, Paul M.

Could a warp field be employed in Earth's atmosphere, for instance for an airplane? Or would the warp create problems in this gaseous environment?
Reality is weirder than fiction

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5838
  • USA
  • Liked: 5919
  • Likes Given: 5260
....
Next you asked about whether there where optical windows cut into the center of the cylindrical resonant cavity end caps or not.  Well, yes there has to be optical window holes for the 633nm laser light to pass through the 7.23cm gap between the endplates of the aluminum cylindrical cavity.  We also added two, three inch long, 0.50" OD by 0.25" (6.35mm) ID threaded aluminum tubes to the resonant cavity endplates, see attached picture, that function as two RF chokes that keep the 1.48 GHz RF from leaking into the lab area.  So the laser light passes through these RF choke tubes and the cylindrical cavity where the peak ac E-field of 900kV/m is present along the entire 7.23 cm long laser path while in the resonant cavity and an exponentially reducing E-field in the RF chokes since these are cylindrical waveguides well into their cutoff mode since the RF wavelength at 1.48 GHz is 202.7mm. 

....
Best, Paul M.

Thanks, great information and clarification.

Just curious as to whether the COMSOL FEA analyst included the optical window cutout holes for the 633nm laser light to pass through the 7.23cm gap between the endplates of the aluminum cylindrical cavity, into the Finite Element Mesh in his FEA analysis?

It is comforting (see my post http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.msg1361552#msg1361552 ) that there is absolutely no difference between the natural frequency calculated by the COMSOL FEA analyst and the frequency I obtained from the exact solution based on a resonant cavity with no holes whatsoever. This is to be expected (that the holes make no difference) because the size of the cutout holes only affects much shorter wavelengths than the resonant wavelength (202.5 mm = 7.97 inches) associated with the natural frequency for TM010 of 1.48 GHz.  Or, equivalently, this can be stated as saying that the holes only affect much higher natural frequencies than 1.48 GHz.


Readers: notice emphasis on the following:

Quote
the laser light passes through these RF choke tubes and the cylindrical cavity where the peak ac E-field of 900kV/m is present along the entire 7.23 cm long laser path while in the resonant cavity and an exponentially reducing E-field in the RF chokes since these are cylindrical waveguides well into their cutoff mode since the RF wavelength at 1.48 GHz is 202.7mm. 


PS: the insignificant discrepancy on the calculated wavelength (202.7 mm vs 202.5 mm) is due to the fact that I used the speed of light in air and it appears that Paul calculated it based on the speed of light in a vacuum

Thanks once again !
« Last Edit: 04/19/2015 07:41 PM by Rodal »

Offline aceshigh

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 608
  • Liked: 171
  • Likes Given: 16
Yah, the EM and ME thing is important. ME generally refers to mach effect (Woodward)   mass fluctuation thrusters.

sorry, I know that and got confused because I had just read a topic somewhere else that I thought it was about EM and it was ME, then ME was stuck in my head when I made the post.

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1113
  • Liked: 776
  • Likes Given: 1013
FYI:  one of many...about nonlinear surface, etc.

http://www.lajpe.org/sep12/14_LAJPE_687_Gouri_Sankar_preprint_corr_f.pdf

Great find and possibly a significant lead. Here's more info to support the NLO properties of cuprous oxide Cu2O. And all you have to do to get cuprous oxide is to just have copper sitting in air. The frustum I'm playing around with has certainly darkened since I got it.
http://www.materialsviews.com/cuprous-oxide-a-new-super-material/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_oxide

I know a super easy way to test this. IF I get any thrust from the unloaded cavity, what I can do to test whether cuprous oxide plays a part in it is to simply clean the cavity. If you boil copper in a salt water/vinegar solution, it'll remove the oxidation. The unloaded cavity shouldn't thrust if the above about cuprous oxide is true.
http://www.wikihow.com/Clean-Copper

Anyway, I have a pretty full plate right now trying to integrate all the electronics and the frustum safely on the balance.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B4PCfHCM1KYoTl90eDBuMklOeTg&usp=sharing&tid=0B4PCfHCM1KYoTXhSUTd5ZDN2WnM

When that is done, I am absolutely going back for a repeat of the frequency mixing I saw evidence of and discussed here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.msg1353384#msg1353384
and here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36313.msg1358851#msg1358851
and do some quantitative measurements.



« Last Edit: 04/19/2015 08:40 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1113
  • Liked: 776
  • Likes Given: 1013
Dr. Rodal:

I missed your question last night on whether the warp-field interferometer cylindrical cavity had any dielectric inside of it.  The answer is no it does not, except for the nanometers thick aluminum oxide coating that bare aluminum develops as soon as it is exposed to the oxygen in the air.

Next you asked about whether there where optical windows cut into the center of the cylindrical resonant cavity end caps or not.  Well, yes there has to be optical window holes for the 633nm laser light to pass through the 7.23cm gap between the endplates of the aluminum cylindrical cavity.  We also added two, three inch long, 0.50" OD by 0.25" (6.35mm) ID threaded aluminum tubes to the resonant cavity endplates, see attached picture, that function as two RF chokes that keep the 1.48 GHz RF from leaking into the lab area.  So the laser light passes through these RF choke tubes and the cylindrical cavity where the peak ac E-field of 900kV/m is present along the entire 7.23 cm long laser path while in the resonant cavity and an exponentially reducing E-field in the RF chokes since these are cylindrical waveguides well into their cutoff mode since the RF wavelength at 1.48 GHz is 202.7mm. 

BTW, we are going to add optical borosilicate telescope grade flat windows to the ends of the RF chokes when we get around to pulling a vacuum in this 1.48 GHz resonant cavity.

Next a clarification.  We used a cylindrical cavity for the warp-field interferometer instead of a frustum shape because we didn't want to create a force with this unit, but instead we needed just a large densification of the Q-V along the active path length of the laser beam while it was traversing the resonant cavity's centerline volume.  And this is the main difference between the Q-thruster and a warp-drive.  In Dr. White's warp-field conjecture you first have to have an Q-Thruster derived acceleration vector to work on and then you engage the a toroidal warp-field around your accelerating vehicle that then multiples the initial Q-Thruster provided velocity vector by the selected warp-factor.   Thus if you have an initial velocity of say 0.01c towards Alpha Centauri with a warp factor of 1,000, your effective velocity becomes 10c while the warp-drive is engaged.

Best, Paul M.

Paul March, have you seen this?

http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.0712
http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.1174
http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1859.htm
http://phys.org/news/2011-05-when-the-speed-of-light.html
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5838
  • USA
  • Liked: 5919
  • Likes Given: 5260
Dr. Rodal:

I missed your question last night on whether the warp-field interferometer cylindrical cavity had any dielectric inside of it.  The answer is no it does not, except for the nanometers thick aluminum oxide coating that bare aluminum develops as soon as it is exposed to the oxygen in the air.

Next you asked about whether there where optical windows cut into the center of the cylindrical resonant cavity end caps or not.  Well, yes there has to be optical window holes for the 633nm laser light to pass through the 7.23cm gap between the endplates of the aluminum cylindrical cavity.  We also added two, three inch long, 0.50" OD by 0.25" (6.35mm) ID threaded aluminum tubes to the resonant cavity endplates, see attached picture, that function as two RF chokes that keep the 1.48 GHz RF from leaking into the lab area.  So the laser light passes through these RF choke tubes and the cylindrical cavity where the peak ac E-field of 900kV/m is present along the entire 7.23 cm long laser path while in the resonant cavity and an exponentially reducing E-field in the RF chokes since these are cylindrical waveguides well into their cutoff mode since the RF wavelength at 1.48 GHz is 202.7mm. 

BTW, we are going to add optical borosilicate telescope grade flat windows to the ends of the RF chokes when we get around to pulling a vacuum in this 1.48 GHz resonant cavity.

Next a clarification.  We used a cylindrical cavity for the warp-field interferometer instead of a frustum shape because we didn't want to create a force with this unit, but instead we needed just a large densification of the Q-V along the active path length of the laser beam while it was traversing the resonant cavity's centerline volume.  And this is the main difference between the Q-thruster and a warp-drive.  In Dr. White's warp-field conjecture you first have to have an Q-Thruster derived acceleration vector to work on and then you engage the a toroidal warp-field around your accelerating vehicle that then multiples the initial Q-Thruster provided velocity vector by the selected warp-factor.   Thus if you have an initial velocity of say 0.01c towards Alpha Centauri with a warp factor of 1,000, your effective velocity becomes 10c while the warp-drive is engaged.

Best, Paul M.

Paul,

Thanks once again for posting this great information !

QUESTION 1: Is it correct to assume that the assessment of the interferometer path-length-change measurements was accomplished by looking at the Power Spectral Density at an anomalous frequency high enough away from the pink noise area (system 1/f noise, quantum 1/f noise etc.), and so clearly distinguishable from system noise occurring at frequencies close to zero?

QUESTION 2: If so, did the observed anomalous peak in the Power Spectral Density occur at a frequency in accordance with the time taken to energize  and de-energize?

QUESTION 3: Did you plot three dimensional plots to look for power peak distribution distributions looking like ring-shaped circular-waves, corresponding to path length changes associated with such frequency (in question2) ?



QUESTION 4: Did you conduct additional tests to confirm repeatibility of the measurements?

QUESTION 5: One would expect such ring-waves to display some statistical distribution, therefore using measures of central tendency like different truncated mean measures ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncated_mean ) of the multidimensional power spectral density data may be particularly helpful in assessing the data (at least I have found so in assessing massive data for different problems that also involve 1/f noise)

QUESTION 6: Has NASA Eagleworks addressed the issue with air refraction raised in this paper by Lee and Cleaver from Baylor University?:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1407/1407.7772.pdf

In particular, has NASA Eagleworks assessed the likelihood of the path-length-change measurements being the result of transient air heating ?
« Last Edit: 04/19/2015 08:42 PM by Rodal »

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1113
  • Liked: 776
  • Likes Given: 1013
@Notsosureofit @DIYFAN, others....are you guys building experiments?
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5838
  • USA
  • Liked: 5919
  • Likes Given: 5260
« Last Edit: 04/19/2015 08:58 PM by Rodal »

Offline Star-Drive

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 825
  • TX/USA
  • Liked: 866
  • Likes Given: 9
Dr. Rodal:

I missed your question last night on whether the warp-field interferometer cylindrical cavity had any dielectric inside of it.  The answer is no it does not, except for the nanometers thick aluminum oxide coating that bare aluminum develops as soon as it is exposed to the oxygen in the air.

Next you asked about whether there where optical windows cut into the center of the cylindrical resonant cavity end caps or not.  Well, yes there has to be optical window holes for the 633nm laser light to pass through the 7.23cm gap between the endplates of the aluminum cylindrical cavity.  We also added two, three inch long, 0.50" OD by 0.25" (6.35mm) ID threaded aluminum tubes to the resonant cavity endplates, see attached picture, that function as two RF chokes that keep the 1.48 GHz RF from leaking into the lab area.  So the laser light passes through these RF choke tubes and the cylindrical cavity where the peak ac E-field of 900kV/m is present along the entire 7.23 cm long laser path while in the resonant cavity and an exponentially reducing E-field in the RF chokes since these are cylindrical waveguides well into their cutoff mode since the RF wavelength at 1.48 GHz is 202.7mm. 

BTW, we are going to add optical borosilicate telescope grade flat windows to the ends of the RF chokes when we get around to pulling a vacuum in this 1.48 GHz resonant cavity.

Next a clarification.  We used a cylindrical cavity for the warp-field interferometer instead of a frustum shape because we didn't want to create a force with this unit, but instead we needed just a large densification of the Q-V along the active path length of the laser beam while it was traversing the resonant cavity's centerline volume.  And this is the main difference between the Q-thruster and a warp-drive.  In Dr. White's warp-field conjecture you first have to have an Q-Thruster derived acceleration vector to work on and then you engage the a toroidal warp-field around your accelerating vehicle that then multiples the initial Q-Thruster provided velocity vector by the selected warp-factor.   Thus if you have an initial velocity of say 0.01c towards Alpha Centauri with a warp factor of 1,000, your effective velocity becomes 10c while the warp-drive is engaged.

Best, Paul M.

Paul,

Thanks once again for posting this great information !

QUESTION 1: Is it correct to assume that the assessment of the interferometer path-length-change measurements was accomplished by looking at the Power Spectral Density at an anomalous frequency high enough away from the pink noise area (system 1/f noise, quantum 1/f noise etc.), and so clearly distinguishable from system noise occurring at frequencies close to zero?

QUESTION 2: If so, did the observed anomalous peak in the Power Spectral Density occur at a frequency in accordance with the time taken to energize  and de-energize?

QUESTION 3: Did you plot three dimensional plots to look for power peak distribution distributions looking like ring-shaped circular-waves, corresponding to path length changes associated with such frequency (in question2) ?



QUESTION 4: Did you conduct additional tests to confirm repeatibility of the measurements?

QUESTION 5: One would expect such ring-waves to display some statistical distribution, therefore using measures of central tendency like different truncated mean measures ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncated_mean ) of the multidimensional power spectral density data may be particularly helpful in assessing the data (at least I have found so in assessing massive data for different problems that also involve 1/f noise)

QUESTION 6: Has NASA Eagleworks addressed the issue with air refraction raised in this paper by Lee and Cleaver from Baylor University?:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1407/1407.7772.pdf

In particular, has NASA Eagleworks assessed the likelihood of the path-length-change measurements being the result of transient air heating ?

Dr. Rodal:

QUESTION 1: Is it correct to assume that the assessment of the interferometer path-length-change measurements was accomplished by looking at the Power Spectral Density at an anomalous frequency high enough away from the pink noise area (system 1/f noise, quantum 1/f noise etc.), and so clearly distinguishable from system noise occurring at frequencies close to zero?

Yes it is for its around 0.660 seconds

QUESTION 2: If so, did the observed anomalous peak in the Power Spectral Density occur at a frequency in accordance with the time taken to energize  and de-energize?

Yes, the on/off cycle time was around 1.5 seconds with some uncertainty due to Windows 7.0 time outs.  Need a real time operating system (RTOto clear that problem, a RTOS system we don't have.

QUESTION 3: Did you plot three dimensional plots to look for power peak distribution distributions looking like ring-shaped circular-waves, corresponding to path length changes associated with such frequency (in question2) ?



Yes, see attached picture.

QUESTION 4: Did you conduct additional tests to confirm repeatibility of the measurements?

Yes Michael Rollins performed four additional 27,000 on/off data sets under the same 30W RF drive condition and obtained similar test results for all five cases.  Mind you at 20W RF input there was only a hint of the space-time compression effect visible above the noise platform.   

QUESTION 5: One would expect such ring-waves to display some statistical distribution, therefore using measures of central tendency like different truncated mean measures ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncated_mean ) of the multidimensional power spectral density data may be particularly helpful in assessing the data (at least I have found so in assessing massive data for different problems that also involve 1/f noise)

I will point that out to Dr. White tomorrow.

QUESTION 6: Has NASA Eagleworks addressed the issue with air refraction raised in this paper by Lee and Cleaver from Baylor University?:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1407/1407.7772.pdf

In particular, has NASA Eagleworks assessed the likelihood of the path-length-change measurements being the result of transient air heating ?

See Dr. White's preliminary assessment of that issue in the attached slide.  Ultimately though we will be running the warp-field resonant cavity with a vacuum contained in its active volume to get rid of all possibilities of air heating problems.

Best, Paul M.
« Last Edit: 04/19/2015 09:51 PM by Star-Drive »
Star-Drive

Offline Rodal

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5838
  • USA
  • Liked: 5919
  • Likes Given: 5260
Dr. Rodal:

I missed your question last night on whether the warp-field interferometer cylindrical cavity had any dielectric inside of it.  The answer is no it does not, except for the nanometers thick aluminum oxide coating that bare aluminum develops as soon as it is exposed to the oxygen in the air.

Next you asked about whether there where optical windows cut into the center of the cylindrical resonant cavity end caps or not.  Well, yes there has to be optical window holes for the 633nm laser light to pass through the 7.23cm gap between the endplates of the aluminum cylindrical cavity.  We also added two, three inch long, 0.50" OD by 0.25" (6.35mm) ID threaded aluminum tubes to the resonant cavity endplates, see attached picture, that function as two RF chokes that keep the 1.48 GHz RF from leaking into the lab area.  So the laser light passes through these RF choke tubes and the cylindrical cavity where the peak ac E-field of 900kV/m is present along the entire 7.23 cm long laser path while in the resonant cavity and an exponentially reducing E-field in the RF chokes since these are cylindrical waveguides well into their cutoff mode since the RF wavelength at 1.48 GHz is 202.7mm. 

BTW, we are going to add optical borosilicate telescope grade flat windows to the ends of the RF chokes when we get around to pulling a vacuum in this 1.48 GHz resonant cavity.

Next a clarification.  We used a cylindrical cavity for the warp-field interferometer instead of a frustum shape because we didn't want to create a force with this unit, but instead we needed just a large densification of the Q-V along the active path length of the laser beam while it was traversing the resonant cavity's centerline volume.  And this is the main difference between the Q-thruster and a warp-drive.  In Dr. White's warp-field conjecture you first have to have an Q-Thruster derived acceleration vector to work on and then you engage the a toroidal warp-field around your accelerating vehicle that then multiples the initial Q-Thruster provided velocity vector by the selected warp-factor.   Thus if you have an initial velocity of say 0.01c towards Alpha Centauri with a warp factor of 1,000, your effective velocity becomes 10c while the warp-drive is engaged.

Best, Paul M.

Paul,

Thanks once again for posting this great information !

QUESTION 1: Is it correct to assume that the assessment of the interferometer path-length-change measurements was accomplished by looking at the Power Spectral Density at an anomalous frequency high enough away from the pink noise area (system 1/f noise, quantum 1/f noise etc.), and so clearly distinguishable from system noise occurring at frequencies close to zero?

QUESTION 2: If so, did the observed anomalous peak in the Power Spectral Density occur at a frequency in accordance with the time taken to energize  and de-energize?

QUESTION 3: Did you plot three dimensional plots to look for power peak distribution distributions looking like ring-shaped circular-waves, corresponding to path length changes associated with such frequency (in question2) ?



QUESTION 4: Did you conduct additional tests to confirm repeatibility of the measurements?

QUESTION 5: One would expect such ring-waves to display some statistical distribution, therefore using measures of central tendency like different truncated mean measures ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncated_mean ) of the multidimensional power spectral density data may be particularly helpful in assessing the data (at least I have found so in assessing massive data for different problems that also involve 1/f noise)

QUESTION 6: Has NASA Eagleworks addressed the issue with air refraction raised in this paper by Lee and Cleaver from Baylor University?:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1407/1407.7772.pdf

In particular, has NASA Eagleworks assessed the likelihood of the path-length-change measurements being the result of transient air heating ?

Dr. Rodal:

QUESTION 1: Is it correct to assume that the assessment of the interferometer path-length-change measurements was accomplished by looking at the Power Spectral Density at an anomalous frequency high enough away from the pink noise area (system 1/f noise, quantum 1/f noise etc.), and so clearly distinguishable from system noise occurring at frequencies close to zero?

Yes it is for its around 0.660 seconds

QUESTION 2: If so, did the observed anomalous peak in the Power Spectral Density occur at a frequency in accordance with the time taken to energize  and de-energize?

Yes, the on/off cycle time was around 1.5 seconds with some uncertainty due to Windows 7.0 time outs.  Need a real time operating system (RTOto clear that problem, a RTOS system we don't have.

QUESTION 3: Did you plot three dimensional plots to look for power peak distribution distributions looking like ring-shaped circular-waves, corresponding to path length changes associated with such frequency (in question2) ?



Yes, see attached picture.

QUESTION 4: Did you conduct additional tests to confirm repeatibility of the measurements?

Yes Michael Rollins performed four additional 27,000 on/off data sets under the same 30W RF drive condition and obtained similar test results for all five cases.  Mind you at 20W RF input there was only a hint of the space-time compression effect visible above the noise platform.   

QUESTION 5: One would expect such ring-waves to display some statistical distribution, therefore using measures of central tendency like different truncated mean measures ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncated_mean ) of the multidimensional power spectral density data may be particularly helpful in assessing the data (at least I have found so in assessing massive data for different problems that also involve 1/f noise)

I will point that out to Dr. White tomorrow.

QUESTION 6: Has NASA Eagleworks addressed the issue with air refraction raised in this paper by Lee and Cleaver from Baylor University?:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1407/1407.7772.pdf

In particular, has NASA Eagleworks assessed the likelihood of the path-length-change measurements being the result of transient air heating ?

See Dr. White's preliminary assessment of that issue in the attached slide.  Ultimately though we will be running the warp-field resonant cavity with a vacuum contained in its active volume to get rid of all possibilities of air heating problems.

Best, Paul M.

Thanks.

It is undeniable that NASA Eagleworks does a very professional job !

Outstanding answers !

Offline Star-Drive

  • Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 825
  • TX/USA
  • Liked: 866
  • Likes Given: 9
Dr. Rodal:

I missed your question last night on whether the warp-field interferometer cylindrical cavity had any dielectric inside of it.  The answer is no it does not, except for the nanometers thick aluminum oxide coating that bare aluminum develops as soon as it is exposed to the oxygen in the air.

Next you asked about whether there where optical windows cut into the center of the cylindrical resonant cavity end caps or not.  Well, yes there has to be optical window holes for the 633nm laser light to pass through the 7.23cm gap between the endplates of the aluminum cylindrical cavity.  We also added two, three inch long, 0.50" OD by 0.25" (6.35mm) ID threaded aluminum tubes to the resonant cavity endplates, see attached picture, that function as two RF chokes that keep the 1.48 GHz RF from leaking into the lab area.  So the laser light passes through these RF choke tubes and the cylindrical cavity where the peak ac E-field of 900kV/m is present along the entire 7.23 cm long laser path while in the resonant cavity and an exponentially reducing E-field in the RF chokes since these are cylindrical waveguides well into their cutoff mode since the RF wavelength at 1.48 GHz is 202.7mm. 

BTW, we are going to add optical borosilicate telescope grade flat windows to the ends of the RF chokes when we get around to pulling a vacuum in this 1.48 GHz resonant cavity.

Next a clarification.  We used a cylindrical cavity for the warp-field interferometer instead of a frustum shape because we didn't want to create a force with this unit, but instead we needed just a large densification of the Q-V along the active path length of the laser beam while it was traversing the resonant cavity's centerline volume.  And this is the main difference between the Q-thruster and a warp-drive.  In Dr. White's warp-field conjecture you first have to have an Q-Thruster derived acceleration vector to work on and then you engage the a toroidal warp-field around your accelerating vehicle that then multiples the initial Q-Thruster provided velocity vector by the selected warp-factor.   Thus if you have an initial velocity of say 0.01c towards Alpha Centauri with a warp factor of 1,000, your effective velocity becomes 10c while the warp-drive is engaged.

Best, Paul M.

Paul March, have you seen this?

http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.0712
http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.1174
http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1859.htm
http://phys.org/news/2011-05-when-the-speed-of-light.html

Mulletron:

No I hadn't but thanks for the pointers.  So what to you think an asymmetric difference of ~1x10^-18 m/s in velocity of light bring to the table?  That the vacuum can be differentially polarized by applied E and B-fields in a volume, in this case dc E&M fields??

Best, Paul M.

Star-Drive

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1113
  • Liked: 776
  • Likes Given: 1013


Mulletron:

No I hadn't but thanks for the pointers.  So what to you think an asymmetric difference of ~1x10^-18 m/s in velocity of light bring to the table?  That the vacuum can be differentially polarized by applied E and B-fields in a volume, in this case dc E&M fields??

Best, Paul M.

Their results seem to support what you guys are reporting from your open air experiments, which is a win, but I don't think we can call this length contraction (even though it might look like it) for sure until the same results are in repeated in vacuum.
« Last Edit: 04/19/2015 10:21 PM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline aceshigh

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 608
  • Liked: 171
  • Likes Given: 16
@Paul March: since the warp drive is to be considered then as ontopic in this thread, how exactly does Dr. White theories deal with time-travel to the past in superluminal speeds? I guess that would be a major point of any space travel related applications of a warp drive.

I remember that in Starship Congress 2013 (at which Dr. White made the first talk on Day 3 – Interstellar Future (50 years +) | Saturday August 17th, 2013 - Sonny White, “Warp Field Physics: an Update” ), the talk just after Dr. White's, was by Dr Eric Davis, that was quite mind bending, where he talks about tipping the light cone in Warp Drives (I guess that would be space-time engineering just like the Warp Drive itself?) so inside it's light cone the ship is not travelling to the past and thus there is no worry of causality violations.

Is that a view that Dr White (or yourself) agree with? Or are you sure a Warp Drive will certainly result in travel to the past?

To anyone wanting to see Dr Eric Davis talk, here is the video of the full Day 3... Dr Eric Davis talk starts at 58:00.


I guess it´s on-topic because it´s intimally related to the Warp Drive by Dr White.

the topic is "light cone gymnastics"  (really) ;D

« Last Edit: 04/20/2015 01:25 AM by aceshigh »

Offline Mulletron

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1113
  • Liked: 776
  • Likes Given: 1013
@Paul March: since the warp drive is to be considered then as ontopic in this thread, how exactly does Dr. White theories deal with time-travel to the past in superluminal speeds? I guess that would be a major point of any space travel related applications of a warp drive.



Well as far as I'm concerned, as long as the warp interferometry experiments feature an RF resonant cavity (see pic below), and data from those experiments is giving us insight about what is happening inside the Emdrive (anisotropies in the speed of light for example), it is certainly on topic here. If they report those same anisotropies in vacuum, warp drive is born.

« Last Edit: 04/20/2015 02:26 AM by Mulletron »
Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you. - Velik

Offline aceshigh

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 608
  • Liked: 171
  • Likes Given: 16
I know Mulletron. What I want to know is exactly how Dr White theory deals with superluminal speeds, which most physicists say leads to time-travel to the past and all the paradoxes that surface from that.


According to the video I showed from Dr Davis, superluminal speeds WITHOUT time-travel to the past are possible, if the light cone is tilted from 0 to 90 degrees only...


I think this question is related to spaceflight applications exactly because time travel IS an issue at relativistic velocities (to the future) and superluminal velocities (to the past, but not according to Dr Davis)

This question is probably more related to the spaceflight applications of a warp drive than the pure theoretical issues of how EM and Warp Drives work on quantum level, since the first is a result of spaceflight application while the second (which is being discussed in this thread) is not.

Offline tchernik

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 247
  • Liked: 297
  • Likes Given: 577
Nice & interesting update, as always.

I'm not sure why, but somehow I think a repeatable interference pattern in a vacuum coming from a resonating cavity would attract more scientific attention than a micro-Newton thruster, as things stand now.

Maybe because micro-thrust can be attributed to experimental error, while a clear interference pattern of the expected characteristics would be harder to explain, and could make others replicate the experiment.

Or maybe because it has already received some attention (and refutation) in some paper cited here. Having a counter-refutation could make many people turn their eyes to this.

A strong thrust on the higher power Emdrive on other hand...

Yep, it really seems things are approaching the point of breaking through or breaking down. Hopefully the former.

Offline Left Field

  • Member
  • Posts: 27
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 21
I know Mulletron. What I want to know is exactly how Dr White theory deals with superluminal speeds, which most physicists say leads to time-travel to the past and all the paradoxes that surface from that.


According to the video I showed from Dr Davis, superluminal speeds WITHOUT time-travel to the past are possible, if the light cone is tilted from 0 to 90 degrees only...


I think this question is related to spaceflight applications exactly because time travel IS an issue at relativistic velocities (to the future) and superluminal velocities (to the past, but not according to Dr Davis)

This question is probably more related to the spaceflight applications of a warp drive than the pure theoretical issues of how EM and Warp Drives work on quantum level, since the first is a result of spaceflight application while the second (which is being discussed in this thread) is not.

Don't forget that the ship is not really moving at relativistic speeds: space is.  Consequently, you could take a trip to Alpha Centauri in 2 days (or less with more power... who knows?), turn your ship around and observe the Earth as it was four years ago (as light has taken four years to get there - slow coach!). You could then observe Alpha Centauri as it is "now", and how people on the Earth will see it in four years.

With this type of technology,  it would be possible to predict when locally past events are going to be observable from the point of view of the Earth (or any other point that the light from such events had not yet reached). For example, a ship 1 light-day out from the Earth in the right place could witness a supernova before the Earth does and then be able to return to the Earth almost instantly and tell astronomers about the incoming light wave so that they could prepare to observe it.

Proviso: I am not an expert in time travel and I also have doubts about Dr Who.

Tags: